Hello Vapers! Natural vs Synthetic Flavours: Which are Preferred?

[curiouschemist82]

Hello everyone!

Just wanted to introduce myself and pose a question to anyone who might be interested...

I am a chemist. I am very interested in the science behind vaping (in particular - the flavouring of e-liquids). I am trying to consider the health impact of "all natural" e-juices versus those flavoured with synthetic chemicals. What is the consensus view?

Note I am not talking about VG/PG ratios, nicotine or anything other than the flavour components.

Some things to consider;

- Synthetic flavour chemicals are obviously man-made and toxicologically tested to some extent, which gives us some peace of mind, however...

- The toxicological testing of the above is not likely to be rigorous enough for accurate evaluation of health effects arising from long-term (chronic) exposure by inhalation.

- Natural flavours (from natural products) have been used by humans for millenia, however these essences are chemically complex, not fully characterised and certainly are not normally consumed by inhalation (meaning these vapours are now going straight into the bloodstream).

- There are many subtleties to this question, which might come out in the discussion. I am going to leave it here for now to see how this post is received.

So in summary, which is preferrable to the vaping community; man-made chemical flavours or natural flavours? I would be particularly interested in cases where people have personally became unwell from consuming either natural OR synthetic e-liquids.

Happy vaping people!

 

[suprtrkr]

Hi and welcome to the board. The only honest answer to your question is nobody knows. People haven't been vaping long enough for inhalation toxicology to be understood. (This does beg the question of why FDA feels compelled to regulate in the absence of actual data, but this is another subject.)

FWIW, I DIY my juice, purchase my flavors only from a trusted supplier, use both natural and artificial flavors (and blends), and have noticed no ill effects. Beyond that, I will offer the opinion a flavor molecule that is chemically identical to another, remains chemically identical regardless of source; I tend to judge the scaremongering in the "natural vs artifical" debate as an uninformed opinion and will not futher influct my similarly uninformed opinion upon a chemist who presumably knows more than I.

 

[retired1]

One of our long time members (who's also a chemist) may be able to shed some light for you.

Oh @Kurt !!!

PING!

 

[curiouschemist82]

Hi and welcome to the board. The only honest answer to your question is nobody knows. People haven't been vaping long enough for inhalation toxicology to be understood. (This does beg the question of why FDA feels compelled to regulate in the absence of actual data, but this is another subject.)

FWIW, I DIY my juice, purchase my flavors only from a trusted supplier, use both natural and artificial flavors (and blends), and have noticed no ill effects. Beyond that, I will offer the opinion a flavor molecule that is chemically identical to another, remains chemically identical regardless of source; I tend to judge the scaremongering in the "natural vs artifical" debate as an uninformed opinion and will not futher influct my similarly uninformed opinion upon a chemist who presumably knows more than I.

Hi Suprtrkr, thanks for your reply. Your opinion (no matter how informed) is what I am after! I am pleased to see that you are not swayed by the scaremongering in this area. This is a debate that will undoubtedly be going on for some time... I'm just trying to build up a picture of what the popular opinion on the subject... Question: If the EXACT same flavour/vaping experience could be achieved by both natural and synthetic methods, would you be more likely, in principle, to have a preference or would it not bother you either way?

 

[curiouschemist82]

One of our long time members (who's also a chemist) may be able to shed some light for you.

Oh @Kurt !!!

PING!

Hi there! I have only been a member for a few minutes and have already heard of Kurt. Would be great to chat chemist-to-chemist. lol. Thanks retired1!

 

[classwife]

Natural...like Organic Flavors?
Here's a couple from Kurt :
"Organic" Flavors
No one talks organic?

 

[suprtrkr]

Hi Suprtrkr, thanks for your reply. Your opinion (no matter how informed) is what I am after! I am pleased to see that you are not swayed by the scaremongering in this area. This is a debate that will undoubtedly be going on for some time... I'm just trying to build up a picture of what the popular opinion on the subject... Question: If the EXACT same flavour/vaping experience could be achieved by both natural and synthetic methods, would you be more likely, in principle, to have a preference or would it not bother you either way?

I would not have a preference between natural or artificial. I do have a preference about suppliers.

 

[curiouschemist82]

Natural...like Organic Flavors?
Here's a couple from Kurt :
"Organic" Flavors
No one talks organic?

Hi there classwife. Actually, I just mean natural as in: derived from a natural source (plants, vegetables etc.). I am not overly concerned with the production methods (i.e. whether or not pesticides were used or whether the product may be considered 'organic') at this stage. Cheers

 

[Susan~S]

Question: If the EXACT same flavour/vaping experience could be achieved by both natural and synthetic methods, would you be more likely, in principle, to have a preference or would it not bother you either way?

I've been vaping 9 years. No ill effects. Using primarily synthetic/artificial flavorings.

I would not have a preference IF the natural flavoring:

• tasted as good as the artificial/synthetic flavorings
  
• were as concentrated as the artificial/synthetic flavorings
• the price was on par
• they were available from a trusted flavoring company who was up to speed on inhalation studies

 

[93gc40]

I prefer tobacco based flavor. No better tobacco flavors than flavor made from tobacco. So I prefer to start Natural.. Now some of my juices do get "flavorings" added. I don't really care if these flavors are natural or artificial. My only requirement is No Smoke, and good flavor.

 

[curiouschemist82]

I've been vaping 9 years. No ill effects. Using primarily synthetic/artificial flavorings.

I would not have a preference IF the natural flavoring:

• tasted as good as the artificial/synthetic flavorings
  
• were as concentrated as the artificial/synthetic flavorings
• the price was on par
• they were available from a trusted flavoring company who was up to speed on inhalation studies

Hi Susan S! Thanks for your reply. That is great to hear that you have experienced no negative effects. I guess those are some of the main reasons (above) for the popularity of synthetic flavourings... So, assuming that all of those boxes could be ticked by a natural alternative, would you then be tempted to lean in the direction of an all natural e-juice or would you literally have no preference at all?

 

[curiouschemist82]

I prefer tobacco based flavor. No better tobacco flavors than flavor made from tobacco. So I prefer to start Natural.. Now some of my juices do get "flavorings" added. I don't really care if these flavors are natural or artificial. My only requirement is No Smoke, and good flavor.

Hi there 93gc40! I agree completely. Although I am in awe of the potency and sheer diversity of modern flavour chemicals, I have yet to find one that is as enjoyable as the real deal. I am not really talking about tobacco here, I'm talking about every natural flavour! The synthetic mixtures just pale in comparison compared with the natural equivalent. Thanks for your message.

 

[Lannie]

All of the things in your first post as things to "consider" MIGHT concern me if I had not smoked over 600,000 cigarettes in my life, but I have smoked more than 600,000 cigarettes and nothing in these flavors could be as bad as all the crap I inhaled those 42 years I smoked. I feel better than I ever have, and for the first time in my life (literally, because I was raised by smokers) I live in a clean, non-stinky, smoke-free house. Now it smells like cupcakes and brownies and fruit medleys. That makes me happy.

 

[Rossum]

I tend to lean toward artificial flavorings being better. If a flavorist builds a flavor from individual compounds, he knows exactly what's in that flavor and an inhalation toxicology study should be far more straightforward than a "natural" flavoring that contains an order of magnitude more compounds (and may very well vary from one batch to the next).

As an aside, I find myself reducing my use of flavors more and more as time goes on. There isn't a vendor juice left in my rotation that I don't cut at least 50% with unflavored liquid. My DIYs are all 5% or less flavoring, and I'm reaching for a mod with unflavored juice in it as often as any other.

 

[Susan~S]

So, assuming that all of those boxes could be ticked by a natural alternative, would you then be tempted to lean in the direction of an all natural e-juice or would you literally have no preference at all?

I DIY my own e-juice (purchasing flavorings) but also (from time to time) purchase some pre-prepared e-juice. But as most of us have learned not all e-juice tastes the same. Taste buds can be tricky. Just like an individuals food preferences.

There's only one line of pre-prepared e-juice I have found that I love more than 2-3 of their offerings. So if I could get their e-juice in either natural or artificial/synthetic, I might lean towards natural.

In the end, if it tastes good to me (and ticks all the boxes), that's where I will put my $$$.

If a new e-juice company came out offering a line of natural pre-prepared flavors would that tempt me? My answer would be, I'd wait for reviews on this site and others, and hope that local vape shops start carrying them so I could try before I buy.

 

[curiouschemist82]

All of the things in your first post as things to "consider" MIGHT concern me if I had not smoked over 600,000 cigarettes in my life, but I have smoked more than 600,000 cigarettes and nothing in these flavors could be as bad as all the crap I inhaled those 42 years I smoked. I feel better than I ever have, and for the first time in my life (literally, because I was raised by smokers) I live in a clean, non-stinky, smoke-free house. Now it smells like cupcakes and brownies and fruit medleys. That makes me happy.

Hi Lannie! I am with you 100%! I stopped smoking tobacco 2.5 years ago and have never looked back.

These points might be relatively minor compared to inhaling combustion products, but what I am really trying to get a feel for is the opinion of vapers toward natural or synthetic flavours. It's not ONLY about health concerns. It's about the flavour too! I am just of the opinion that natural flavours are much more enjoyable than synthetic ones, but I am not convinced that they have TRULY made their way into the vaping market. I know there are hundreds of companies claiming 100% natural ingredients - but they certainly have NOT managed to get 100% of the true flavour in there! This is probably due to technical limitations, but I'd like to see more in the way of 'authentic' flavours (whether natural or synthetic).

Cheers

 

[suprtrkr]

Lol, and you wondered if you'd get any responses. If it weren't New Year's Day, with half the planet painfully hung over, we'd be on page 26 by now

 

[curiouschemist82]

I tend to lean toward artificial flavorings being better. If a flavorist builds a flavor from individual compounds, he knows exactly what's in that flavor and an inhalation toxicology study should be far more straightforward than a "natural" flavoring that contains an order of magnitude more compounds (and may very well vary from one batch to the next).

As an aside, I find myself reducing my use of flavors more and more as time goes on. There isn't a vendor juice left in my rotation that I don't cut at least 50% with unflavored liquid. My DIYs are all 5% or less flavoring, and I'm reaching for a mod with unflavored juice in it as often as any other.

Interesting point, Rossum. Agreed that natural flavourings cannot compete with synthetics in terms of reproducibility. However, I'm not convinced that toxicological studies give an entirely accurate description of the toxicity of these chemicals over longer time scales (not to mention the fact that there is a MASSIVE variation in individual tolerence to these compounds).

Whilst I am not under the illusion that because something is natural, it might be intrinsically safer, there is something reassuring about the idea that humans have been breathing in essential oils and other plant components (allbeit in much lower concentrations) for thousands of years. The flavour chemicals cooked up in the flavourist's lab have never encountered human lung tissue.

Like you, I tend to find synthetic flavours overpowering - and often not very authentic (i.e. I know that I am tasting something designed to taste like strawberry rather than a strawberry itself). I think it is a very sensible idea to minimise the amounts of flavour components in e-liquids.

In summary, I am leaning just toward the other direction: I want to try to find (or develop my own) e-liquids that don't disappoint in terms of flavour and doesn't rely too much on synthetic flavour chemicals.

 

[curiouschemist82]

Lol, and you wondered if you'd get any responses. If it weren't New Year's Day, with half the planet painfully hung over, we'd be on page 26 by now

I know! I'm very impressed. Great response and really nice people too! This place is clearly a wealth of information. I'm glad I found it

 

[Lannie]

Hi Lannie! I am with you 100%! I stopped smoking tobacco 2.5 years ago and have never looked back.

These points might be relatively minor compared to inhaling combustion products, but what I am really trying to get a feel for is the opinion of vapers toward natural or synthetic flavours. It's not ONLY about health concerns. It's about the flavour too! I am just of the opinion that natural flavours are much more enjoyable than synthetic ones, but I am not convinced that they have TRULY made their way into the vaping market. I know there are hundreds of companies claiming 100% natural ingredients - but they certainly have NOT managed to get 100% of the true flavour in there! This is probably due to technical limitations, but I'd like to see more in the way of 'authentic' flavours (whether natural or synthetic).

Cheers

Well, my opinion is that whatever tastes BEST is what I want to use. And that's saying something, because in the rest of my life I'm all about natural. I have cows so I can have fresh milk every day (and cheese and butter and all the rest). We raise our own grass fed beef (because who can afford to BUY that stuff?), I have chickens for eggs (and meat, yes, we eat our chickens sometimes) and none of our animals consume corn (please don't ask - just look up aflatoxin - it's a very long story). I myself have cut MANY things out of my diet in the last 10 years or so. I would have been considered a "health nut," I'm sure, except that I burned through two packs of cigarettes a day. Pretty ironic, huh? Now that's gone, too, and I'm cutting myself a little slack on the flavors, because it's the FLAVORS that are keeping me from smoking. I try to avoid the "bad stuff" (diacetyl and stuff) in the flavors, but you know what? Some of them have it, and in the amounts I'm consuming it, I'm willing to give those flavors a pass. It's still way less than what I was inhaling when I smoked. In a perfect world, I wouldn't include any flavor that contained anything "iffy," but I don't live in a perfect world.

So, really, what I'm saying I guess is that maybe someone who never smoked and who wanted to take up vaping because "it looks cool" (I don't understand that, but whatEVER), they might be concerned about natural v.s. synthetic. Me, not so much. I'm prolly gonna be NO help to you at all, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

~Lannie