Second hand vape in public

[gotsteam?]

And, http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA_Legislative_Packet_Regarding_Indoor_Bans_Web.pdf

Particularly starting at page 14, but other pages have relevant content as well, such as page 3, paragraph 4.

How many people here read the White Paper? Specifically the request of the AAPHP
to have the FDA classify personal nicotine inhalers as tobacco products as opposed
to drug/device combinations. While I absolutely like the health and safety findings
and opinions found throughout the paper, I am a little bothered by the FDAs eventual
regulation of the products. I see massive taxation on the horizon for e-juices and
probably the restriction of the vaping community to make their own juice. At least any
juice that contains nicotine unless you are a pharmacist. Patches and gum are friggin
expensive and juice will probably be next. I used to roll my own because it was so
inexpensive to do. Now after recent new regulations, it is just as expensive as buying
packs and cartons. Now I find this awsome community and PVs and an inexpensive
way to enjoy nicotine and it is about to be taxed to death too. WTF? Am I wrong here?

 

[IOU]

I recall reading a study (wish I could find the refference) that 98% of the nic in e-liquid is absobed by the person vaping, whereas only 1% of the nic in an analog due to the burning of a cig causing second hand smoke even when not taking a drag.

 

[Prodigal441]

Crap...... I can't find the link I had. There was an independent study that was done where several people vaped and exhaled into a machine that could measure what was being exhaled. Measurements were made at the mouth and at several distances away. even the measurements made at the mouth were practically unmeasurable for safety. I will look more tomorrow for the link and add to this post if I find it. It was a good read as I have 3 cats that sit on my lap and are intrigued but the vapor to the point that they now come looking for it. Before I read the article and results, I thought my cats were addicted to the nicotine in the vapor.

 

[dspin]

Nicotine by itself inhaled won't hurt you, just addictive, so sayeth my regular doctor AND my lung doctor. Thats all I know

 

[Red Dog]

Nicotine by itself inhaled won't hurt you, just addictive, so sayeth my regular doctor AND my lung doctor. Thats all I know

Not entirely true... long term use of any stimulant can cause a number of issues, primarily pulmonary hypertension. This is what ...... was originally created to treat, the effects that it is currently marketed for were an unexpected side effect that was discovered during trials.

But in terms of the extremely small amounts of nicotine from second hand vaping, I just don't see it being an issue.

 

[DEnd]

I have little kids in the house, and I use to smoke outside, rain or shine. That's one of the things I like about vaping, but lately I've been thinking about the effects it might have on the kids. Nicotine is not a harmless substance...

PGE's (which are the main ingriedient in e-juice) have been shown to cause an increased risk of asthma and allergies in children if inhaled. So I would not vape indoors with children around.

Chemical Compounds Emitted From Common Household Paints and Cleaners Increase Risks of Asthma and Allergies in Children - October 22, 2010 -Features - News at HSPH - Harvard School of Public Health

I believe that all the second hand smoke propaganda was and is a pack of lies..

and this is just an attempt to bring that drama here after the FDA lost their appeal...

all the studies so far have shown that the amounts that we're inhaling are minimal, and that so much of the minimal amount is absorbed that anything exhaled would be totally inconsequential expecially at the rate at which vapor evaporates...

second had smoke is a myth and second hand vapor even moreso

Secondhand smoke dangers are not a myth, and lead to many pulmonary (and other) problems, especially in children. There is study after study to prove it. If you don't believe those just go ask your local pediatric doctor what his/her observations are with children who have parents who smoke.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

PGE's (which are the main ingriedient in e-juice) have been shown to cause an increased risk of asthma and allergies in children if inhaled. So I would not vape indoors with children around.

But your study says:

PGEs are a diverse group of VOCs widely used in water-based paint, varnishes, cleaning fluids, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, cosmetics, and processed foods because they are effective solvents.

So have you also banned all paint, varnish, cleaning fluids, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, cosmetics and processed foods from your house? It seems like those would be a much bigger risk than the vapor from an e-cig. Are you aware that the fumes from a floor freshly mopped with Pine-Sol can be fatal to parrots? If it kills them, what do you think it's doing to you? Or your children?

There's a quote about motes and beams that seems appropriate here.

 

[DEnd]

But your study says:


So have you also banned all paint, varnish, cleaning fluids, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, cosmetics and processed foods from your house? It seems like those would be a much bigger risk than the vapor from an e-cig. Are you aware that the fumes from a floor freshly mopped with Pine-Sol can be fatal to parrots? If it kills them, what do you think it's doing to you? Or your children?

There's a quote about motes and beams that seems appropriate here.

First of all where did I say or even imply banning those substances? I didn't. The only thing I suggested is that you not expose children to VOCs that can easily be avoided.

The increased risk of allergies and asthma comes from the irritation caused by the VOCs. Children are much more succeptable to this than adults are. As far as paint, the paint on my walls is over 5 years old and no longer releasing the amount of VOCs it once did, and we still gave it time to offgas before we moved in when it was fresh. As for Varnish, again it's VOC off gassing occurs mostly in the days following application, our floors were allowed to off gas for over two months before we moved in, when we build furniture we do the varnishing in our shop (which is well ventilated) and allow to off gas before being brought in. Cosmetics... no one in my house uses them, except for deoderant. Cleaning fluids... we don't normally use them with children in the house, and when we do we use low VOC formulas.

One of the major producers of VOCs is actually cooking, which is one reason why we have ventilator hoods over our ranges. I hope when you cook you turn on your hood.

So yeah I do what I can to limit my family's exposure to VOCs (even though my neices and nephews are only here a few days out of the month). I don't think implying I'm a hypocrit does anything for the conversation.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

So yeah I do what I can to limit my family's exposure to VOCs (even though my neices and nephews are only here a few days out of the month). I don't think implying I'm a hypocrit does anything for the conversation.

Unfounded hysteria doesn't do much for it, either.

Context is everything, and just as chlorine is a deadly compound, while sodium chloride is necessary to life, all PGEs are not equal in effect, toxicity (if any) and behavior. The study results presented in that are a big "duh". The fumes from paint and varnish aren't good to breathe. It's not a good idea to use a can of Raid as air freshener.

Lumping in several discrete compounds and pretending all of them are equal isn't science and isn't reasonable. The report you linked to is a summary of the actual study, so I don't know whether the researchers used bad methodology, or if the summary writer wants to write newspaper headlines when he/she grows up, or if it's a preliminary study that says "There might be something here, maybe not, it could use more study." It might surprise you to know how many times that gets said in a scientific document.

But that doesn't make headlines.

 

[slappy]

I bet if one studied the air quality of any given house, the older the worse, the air quality is in the toilet... Be proven. As much as I agree that PG risks are somewhat unknown, and I say that knowing studies have been conducted since what the 50s. Studies have also concluded that it can be a viruscide, and it goes well with your morning donut. Considering very little PG gets out of your lungs, there are far more dangerous things inside/outside air/surface to be worried about. You drive an SUV? You have a wood burning stove/fireplace? Do you touch money and then turn around and feed your kid a Mac D. french fry... Stressing on it only makes me need my nic... wheres my ego... ah....

But really since there is no definitive proof one way or the other, do what you feel is best.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

I bet if one studied the air quality of any given house, the older the worse, the air quality is in the toilet...

New houses are worse than old houses. New houses are built to be air-tight, so the heating and cooling costs are lower. But without the leaks and drafts that old houses have, the air is stagnant and fills up with all the VOCs outgassing from all the stuff listed up above, plus carpet glue, upholstery, furniture polish....

 

[DEnd]

Unfounded hysteria doesn't do much for it, either.

How on earth are sensible precautions hysteria?

Considering very little PG gets out of your lungs, there are far more dangerous things inside/outside air/surface to be worried about.

But really since there is no definitive proof one way or the other, do what you feel is best.

How do you know how much leaves your lungs? I haven't seen any studies that say how much is exhaled. I'm not saying to worry about it for yourself. I'm just saying it's probably best to limit a childs exposure to it, which is something very easy to do

 

[DEnd]

New houses are worse than old houses. New houses are built to be air-tight, so the heating and cooling costs are lower. But without the leaks and drafts that old houses have, the air is stagnant and fills up with all the VOCs outgassing from all the stuff listed up above, plus carpet glue, upholstery, furniture polish....

That really depends on the house... But for the most part you're right. For example a LEED certified house is likely to have less indoor air polution than one built 60 years ago. However, a code minimum house will likely have higher indoor air pollution levels than one built earlier.

 

[VprNomi]

Wow.

As with any issue people have passionate feelings about, I'm seeing an awful lot of extremist responses, both ways. It's so easy to skew data & studies that an awful lot of them (again, on both sides) are unreliable. While I tend to believe that vaping is less harmful than smoking for both the vapee and those around him or her, I will not say "safe" because it's too new and I don't know if the studies are reliable. It generally takes a lot of money to run truly valid studies and who, of those of us who tend to think vaping is safer, has that kind of money (as in, to compete with those who are biased otherwise)?

Nicotine and caffeine are both known to be associated with cardiac issues. I'm not saying they're necessarily dangerous, but neither are they harmless. Of course we all come into contact with a lot of pollution and other things in life that aren't harmless & may be more dangerous than both nicotine & caffeine. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to expose children to any more of them than we have to.

That said, I vape with my kids around. I just make sure to blow it away from them so it dissipates before they inhale it. I think we all need to exercise a bit of common sense & realize that the truth most likely falls somewhere in the middle of the two opposite camps.

 

[fallon74]

I don't feel second hand vape is an issue it's a water vaper you blow out. The nicotine has already been absorbed by you so there's little effect if any at all. It's the carbon monoxide and carcinogens that harm you and there is none of that in an e-cig.

 

[ladysolitary85]

Are you also afraid of entering an area that has coffee brewing...caffeine in the air!!!

roflmao! toooo funny!

 

[slappy]

How do you know how much leaves your lungs? I haven't seen any studies that say how much is exhaled. I'm not saying to worry about it for yourself. I'm just saying it's probably best to limit a childs exposure to it, which is something very easy to do

Sorry can't find the link. But there have been studies showing only trace amounts of PG and nicotine actually get exhaled. Nicotine is know to dissapate quickly and of course PG, VG, and flavorings are ingested and inhaled regularly via other means. I personally think there are far worse things inhaled by our children.

But anyway, I'm not trying to convince you. You do what you feel is best. Let your own research/judgement be your guide.

Cheers.

 

[RooksGambit]

I don't feel second hand vape is an issue it's a water vaper you blow out. The nicotine has already been absorbed by you so there's little effect if any at all. It's the carbon monoxide and carcinogens that harm you and there is none of that in an e-cig.

You know that's false, right? There are carcinogens in e-liquid with nicotine. Very, very trace amounts of some tobacco specific nitrosamines. Essentially the same as in NRT products. Can't get away from them when deriving nicotine from tobacco. That being said, bacon and beer have trace amounts of carcinogens in them, too.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

That being said, bacon and beer have trace amounts of carcinogens in them, too.

So does air.

 

[WAC_Vet]

My goodness, such ado about what is really nothing. There should be more concern over what our vehicles are putting into our air, the caffeine level in chocolate (which many children, including toddlers eat), the chemicals released from coffee brewing, the smoke stacks on many manufacturing facilities, the chemicals released when ordinances are exploded on military facilities, chemicals sprayed for insect control, sprayed cleaning chemicals, the bacteria/viruses spread by coughing, sneezing, the chemicals used in restaurants, the chemicals used in our FOOD supply, chemicals used in our WATER supply, etc., chemicals released in smoking cigarettes, cigars, pipes.

I have a Congo African Grey. Birds are very sensitive to airborne contaminants. When I used analogs, I could not keep my bird in my bedroom with me, as I could not chance him inhaling the smoke. I have kept him in my bedroom with me doing some serious chain vaping, and there has been NO response from him, where as, I have seen him react to cigarette smoke.

I was a courteous analog smoker, as I have had friends that were allergic to tobacco smoke. I have had friends that were asthmatic. I have emphysema, and chronic bronchitis, analog smoke causes me to have a pretty bad cough, but since returning to vaping, the only time I start coughing, is when someone is smoking in close quarters with me!

Between observing my parrot, and my own reactions, I am quite confident that vaping is less of a cause for concern than sitting in a restaurant with all the perfumes, cooking, and cleaning chemicals I am exposed to! My Grandchildren are near me when I vape, and they actually enjoy the sweet aromas (trying to figure out what flavor I'm vaping), as oppose to the stink of analogs (in the air, the house, and on me).