Basis of corporate/business policies on vaping/e-cigs?

[PRODOS]

Greetings.

I'm from Melbourne, Australia. Currently visiting family in Cincinnati, USA.

I was vaping in a cafe in Cincinnati. I had been doing so every day for the last few weeks.
In fact I did so last year at the same cafe, nearly every day for the 6 weeks my wife and I were visiting the USA.

Never had a problem with it.

Then, a week or so ago, the manager of the cafe approached me and said he'd had two complaints AND that smoking and e-cigarettes were not permitted.

I've written to the the cafe chain's support department to ask for clarification and to ask:

Why are traditional cigarettes treated the same way as "e-cigs"?

So far, no reply on that.

Meanwhile I've become curious about HOW companies determine their e-cig/vaping policies.

Here are a couple of items which point to the thinking involved:

Human Resource Executive Online | What to Do about E-Cigarettes

E-cigarette use should not be allowed in any locations where use of traditional tobacco products (cigarettes, cigars, pipes and smokeless-tobacco products) is not permitted.​

While e-cigarettes do not technically produce "smoke,” they do produce a vapor or aerosol that contains exhaled nicotine, flavoring compounds and other chemicals. Until long-term exposure to these ingredients is proven to be safe, non-smokers should not have to be exposed to second-hand vapor ...​

Should Employers Ban E-Cigarettes in the Workplace?

Many employers are electing to ban e-cigarettes indoors or in the work area or, alternatively, say that they can be used only in designated smoking areas outside of the work facility, Jay Hux, an attorney with Fisher & Phillips in Chicago, told SHRM Online. These devices contain nicotine as well as detectable levels of known carcinogens and toxic chemicals, and prohibiting their use in the workplace eliminates the risk of any complaints from nonsmoking co-workers, customers or others annoyed by the vapors.​

Quirky Question #228, E-Cigarettes: To Vape or Not to Vape at the Workplace | Quirky Questions

Studies have found that vaping worsened indoor air quality, specifically by increasing the concentration of nicotine, particulate matter, PAHs and aluminum — compounds that have been linked to lung and cardiovascular disease and cancer among other health effects.​

I welcome comments and clarification.

Thanks.

PS: Sorry, but the forum has automatically removed the links I included. This is probably a forum setting that applies to newbies.

Best Wishes,

PRODOS

 

[LuNar]

I think most of it comes down to respecting other people in your area when you vape. Most public places say smoking in doors is banned so go outside to the bench to smoke. That's where I go to vape. Just don't want to blow vapor in peoples faces and be like," It's fine, it's not going to give you cancer."

Not trying to be rude or anything but it's about respecting other people when they are around you. Sure some people don't really care about vapor being in the same air they breathe but I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who don't want vapor or smoke around them simply because they just don't.

If I were a non smoker/ non vapor and I were eating at a café I Wouldn't want people vaping or smoking right beside me as I'm trying to enjoy my meal.

If someone is walking around in a store and vaping on a mech with an rda chucking clouds everywhere, it would just give vapors a bad image, and in this whole fda and regulation thing we need to keep our imagine looking as professional as possible.

Just saying man.

 

[LuNar]

I'm sure companies are trying to say e cigs are a tobacco product because nicotine is extracted from tobacco and used in some eliquid. Since it's an extract trying to label ecigs and eliquid as a tobacco product is not valid, It's an EXTRACT. On top of that not all eliquid contains nicotine, you can easily get some 0nic eliquid that has absolutely nothing to do with tobacco.

But since using a vape and smoking a cig look so similar and function kind of similar( inhaling vapor/smoke then exhaling) it just looks like smoking and that is something big companies, the fda, and the government will cling on to in order to put ecigs under some kind of policies and regulations as well as taxing it.

 

[kaahn]

 

[Susan~S]

Then, a week or so ago, the manager of the cafe approached me and said he'd had two complaints AND that smoking and e-cigarettes were not permitted.

@Baditude (who use to live in Cincinatti) posted this in another thread (May 2015).

"Cincinnati has laws against smoking or vaping inside any buildings."

This was in response to a question about vaping at an indoor concert. I don't know if this law also applies to vape shops (private business) or not.

@PRODOS, what is it like vaping in Melbourne? What are your laws, where can/cannot you vape?

 

[stevegmu]

Smokers light up when they see people using e-cigs...Also, thanks to the work of some very misguided anti smoking, pro nanny stater activists, smoking in public has become illegal in many places, as they lobbied to have it included in clean air acts...

 

[supertrunker]

For workplaces at least, the policy is illogical since the emissions of faxes, photocopiers and printers are likely far more hazardous to health than a bit of vape.

If i said i used no nicotine, perhaps i'd be regarded as no more dangerous than an air freshener?

Anyway - HR departments will do anything to avoid legal action from any real or perceived dangers and that's why we endure the polices we do. I am permitted to vape anywhere i like at work; i realise most are not.

T

 

[Izan]

In a nutshell:
Fear Uncertainty and doubt.

Don't eat there any more and tell them why they lost your business.
Vote with feet.

Cheers
I

 

[coolvapes]

Welcome to america, people are constantly looking for things to complain about, really it will be a fact of life until we have a robot like society on our hands.

 

[BuGlen]

When you're talking about cafes and other privately owned businesses that serve / sell to the public, then it depends on the area. Some states / counties / cities have laws on the books that ban vaping in these places. For those that don't, then it's up to the business to decide, of which, many may decide not to deal with the complaints from non-vapers and just establish policy against it.

 

[Izan]

Welcome to america, people are constantly looking for things to complain about, really it will be a fact of life until we have a robot like society on our hands.

Never Happen!!!

 

[suprtrkr]

It's policy, and therefore does not have a reason. You, however, have an excellent reason to take your business and your money elsewhere.

 

[Rabbit Slayer]

I don't know but I wish they'd add a rule for cologne and perfume as well

 

[Vknit]

People who don't vape may find the odors of our vaping less offensive than cigarette smoke. Or they may not. Personally, I don't vape anywhere that I didn't smoke before. Could I vape at the movies? Well, I dunno, but I could wait 2 hours for a cigarette before, so I can wait 2 hours for a vape now. Annoying people isn't going to help us get them over the prejudices that are being fed by several camps.

 

[Vaslovik]

Anyone exhaling either smoke or vapor looks the same to them, and since they despise smokers with a more than perfect hatred it's quite natural to them to hate vapers right into the mix, without bothering to make distinctions based on facts. These are very unhappy people suffering from the stresses and frustrations of modern life and who have a deep seated need to take it out on someone. The more targets they can find for their undifferentiated rage the better. Eventually they will die in a road-rage incident, lose their jobs over a huge emotional melt-down leaving them homeless, or be killed in a freak bowling accident. We just have to put up with them until that time arrives.

 

[PRODOS]

Thank you to everyone for their views and ideas.

LuNar writes:

If I were a non smoker/ non vapor and I were eating at a café I Wouldn't want people vaping or smoking right beside me as I'm trying to enjoy my meal.

Nearly all my friends are non smokers. As is my wife.

I run lots film & discussion groups in Melbourne (and some when I visit Cincinnati) and all but two of my regular participants are non smokers.

I vape around them and next to them all the time. Yet none of them have ever had a problem with it.

I use a sliver coloured battery and refillable cartridges from V2 which glow blue when dragging (rather than red). The e-liquid I use is from Atlantic Cigs. There is no smell. The e-cig looks more like a pen than a cigarette.

I do it this way so as to not cause confusion or alarm among onlookers -- should they mistakenly think I'm using a traditional cigarette.

LuNar writes:

... in this whole fda and regulation thing we need to keep our (image) looking as professional as possible.

I understand. But I'd like to add that the FDA and those journalists who report on vaping also have a moral obligation to be professional. And the minimum standard of professionalism is to be truthful.

As for "looking professional" (which I interpret as meaning to not go around behaving like a lout or a whacked out hippy), it is not the job of the FDA or of regulators to police our nice manners, is it?

LuNar writes:

I'm sure companies are trying to say e cigs are a tobacco product because nicotine is extracted from tobacco and used in some eliquid. Since it's an extract trying to label ecigs and eliquid as a tobacco product is not valid, It's an EXTRACT. On top of that not all eliquid contains nicotine, you can easily get some 0nic eliquid that has absolutely nothing to do with tobacco.

Good points.

But since using a vape and smoking a cig look so similar and function kind of similar( inhaling vapor/smoke then exhaling) it just looks like smoking and that is something big companies, the fda, and the government will cling on to in order to put ecigs under some kind of policies and regulations as well as taxing it.

It will be a sad (and farcical) day if and when lawmakers and government agencies determine policies based on what things LOOK like, rather than what they ARE.

Susan-S writes:

@Baditude (who use to live in Cincinatti) posted this in another thread (May 2015).

"Cincinnati has laws against smoking or vaping inside any buildings."

Thanks. I'll try and locate that post.

My question is: What is the basis of such laws?

Susan-S ask:

... what is it like vaping in Melbourne? What are your laws, where can/cannot you vape?

There is currently no ban. But the whole issue is currently in play.
All the cafes and restaurants I go to allow me to vape. But I'm a long-time local in these places, so that's a factor.
I have had a couple of arguments with cafe owners who started coming at me, suggesting that vaping is harmful or illegal.

On a few occasions, they had received "complaints" from other customers. I responded that these complaints are based on misunderstanding and next time they should have it explained to them, that vaping is harmless to others.

Once, when a restaurant owner came to our table, saying that patrons at a far table had complained, I gave the boss one of my e-cigs, pulled it apart -- battery + cartridge -- and told him to take it over to the customers and explain the facts. I also offered to go over there myself. The restaurant boss took the dismantled e-cig over to the other table. End of complaint.

supertrunker writes:

For workplaces at least, the policy is illogical since the emissions of faxes, photocopiers and printers are likely far more hazardous to health than a bit of vape.

If i said i used no nicotine, perhaps i'd be regarded as no more dangerous than an air freshener?

Thank you!

"ILLOGICAL" -- that's the magic word!

I have yet to come across a logical or rational basis for a blanket prohibition on vaping within a business.

The anti-vaping quotes I provided at the beginning of this thread -- from business advisory bodies -- rely on baseless assertions and irrational precaution.

supertrunker writes:

Anyway - HR departments will do anything to avoid legal action from any real or perceived dangers and that's why we endure the polices we do.

How is that good for society or good for business?

I don't want a culture of cowardice. I don't want a world of shrinking freedoms built on towers of baloney.

supertrunker writes:

I am permitted to vape anywhere i like at work; i realise most are not.

Interesting.

(... to be continued ...)

 

[PRODOS]

(... continuing ...)

Smokers light up when they see people using e-cigs.

I read a study on this last year. I think it was by some Greek lady. Very unconvincing.

..Also, thanks to the work of some very misguided anti smoking, pro nanny stater activists, smoking in public has become illegal in many places, as they lobbied to have it included in clean air acts...

I can understand why smoking has been made illegal (although I think this prohibition is bad). But vaping is not smoking. It's vastly different.

As for "clean air" and "Clean Air Acts" ... vaping doesn't make the air any more "unclean" than many other things.

In a nutshell:
Fear Uncertainty and doubt.

Don't eat there any more and tell them why they lost your business.
Vote with feet.

I have in fact written at length to the place in question. And have stopped going there for now.

I would like them to change their policy.

They should allow vaping.

Welcome to america, people are constantly looking for things to complain about, really it will be a fact of life until we have a robot like society on our hands.

Well, that's in the hands of the citizens who care enough to prevent that happening.

If vapers simply stop going to a place because it doesn't allow vaping, it allows these harmful prohibitions to continue spreading.

When you're talking about cafes and other privately owned businesses that serve / sell to the public, then it depends on the area. Some states / counties / cities have laws on the books that ban vaping in these places. For those that don't, then it's up to the business to decide, of which, many may decide not to deal with the complaints from non-vapers and just establish policy against it.

Sure. All the "complaints" come from non-vapers. So all the appeasing goes in the direction of the non-vapers.

I would like to see some appeasing of vapers.

It's policy, and therefore does not have a reason. You, however, have an excellent reason to take your business and your money elsewhere.

I agree that I can and should take my business and money elsewhere.

But I do not agree that since its "policy" it does not have to have a reason (which, I know, isn't quite what you said.)

If a business has a policy it needs to have a reason for that policy.

Yes, everyone has (and should have) the right to be an idiot.

But morally and socially, it's wrong and harmful for a business to have a policy that is not based on evidence and logic.

I don't know but I wish they'd add a rule for cologne and perfume as well

Ha!

People who don't vape may find the odors of our vaping less offensive than cigarette smoke. Or they may not. Personally, I don't vape anywhere that I didn't smoke before. Could I vape at the movies? Well, I dunno, but I could wait 2 hours for a cigarette before, so I can wait 2 hours for a vape now. Annoying people isn't going to help us get them over the prejudices that are being fed by several camps.

I'm not familiar with all the types of vaping devices. I gather from this statement that some do have a smell.

I know that the e-cigs I use do not have a smell. Unless you're right up close.

If the problem is the smell -- then cafes should allow those who use odourless vaping. If that is the main objection.

Anyone exhaling either smoke or vapor looks the same to them, and since they despise smokers with a more than perfect hatred it's quite natural to them to hate vapers right into the mix, without bothering to make distinctions based on facts.

Well, that's terrible! Really!

These are very unhappy people suffering from the stresses and frustrations of modern life and who have a deep seated need to take it out on someone. The more targets they can find for their undifferentiated rage the better. Eventually they will die in a road-rage incident, lose their jobs over a huge emotional melt-down leaving them homeless, or be killed in a freak bowling accident. We just have to put up with them until that time arrives.

LOL! Vaslovik is a poet with a dark, brooding soul. He probably does not use peppermint or strawberry vapers.

Thanks everyone. I really, really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[stevegmu]

(... continuing ...)



I read a study on this last year. I think it was by some Greek lady. Very unconvincing.

There have been numerous posts about that just on here. A recent one was where one guy at an airport in Canada was vaping, when a smoker saw him and lit up...

 

[PRODOS]

I think most of it comes down to respecting other people in your area when you vape. Most public places say smoking in doors is banned so go outside to the bench to smoke. That's where I go to vape. Just don't want to blow vapor in peoples faces and be like," It's fine, it's not going to give you cancer."

I meant to reply to this point earlier.

Just want to say that I agree about respecting others wishes to some extent -- to a great extent, in fact.

But my experience is that it is possible to RESPECTFULLY and gently and pleasantly explain vaping to people who simply and innocently don't know about it. This can work.

So, I'd like to just highlight this available option, also.

 

[PRODOS]

There have been numerous posts about that just on here. A recent one was where one guy at an airport in Canada was vaping, when a smoker saw him and lit up...

My "studies" (i.e. repeated personal experience) demonstrate that many smokers who see someone vaping come and ask "Where do you get one of those?"

And my "studies" show that a very happy conversation is often followed by an improvement in the health of the now ex-smoker.