Basis of corporate/business policies on vaping/e-cigs?

[stevegmu]

My "studies" (i.e. repeated personal experience) demonstrate that many smokers who see someone vaping come and ask "Where do you get one of those?"

And my "studies" show that a very happy conversation is often followed by an improvement in the health of the now ex-smoker.

Your thread was about why some businesses prohibit vaping. One of the reasons is because smokers light up when they see people vaping. My friend Paul is a bar manager. They don't allow smoking, but didn't care about vaping, until smokers would start smoking at the bar when they see people vaping. The general manager didn't want to deal with it, so prohibited vaping. They finally reversed the no vaping policy, but smokers still light up when they see people vaping from time to time...

I really don't care about activism or converting people I don't know...

 

[Romano Cheese]

The way I see it, their reason is - it may displease you that you can't vape and you may seek coffee elsewhere, but allowing you to vape may drive off 2 (if not more) other customers that just wanted coffee and don't want to smell what you are vaping or inhale some nicotine - and that is a bigger loss to them. I always treated vaping the same as smoking, if I couldn't smoke in the place before when I was a smoker that means I shouldn't vape in there because I'm not going to argue with a manager over "it's not smoke it's vapor". I can control myself long enough to wait til I get outside and vape just like I did with analogs. In my house, it's my rules and I will vape when I want, when I'm a privately owned business - it's their house, their rules. That's how I feel on the situation, and to each their own, but I would prefer to just not have to deal with the hassle.

 

[Bunnykiller]

I don't know but I wish they'd add a rule for cologne and perfume as well

I totally agree with this.... there are certian perfumes that will close up my sinuses in the matter of seconds... then the 15 minutes of sneezing kicks in... makes for a miserable time..

 

[Vaslovik]

LOL! Vaslovik is a poet with a dark, brooding soul. He probably does not use peppermint or strawberry vapers.

He? I'm a woman. Check the photo.

 

[K_Tech]

I've been sitting here trying to come up with a well thought out response to the op's question, and all I could manage was to agree with Romano Cheese:

In my house, it's my rules and I will vape when I want, when I'm a privately owned business - it's their house, their rules.

I may disagree with a vaping ban, but I support the right of a business to enact one - and I support the right of customers to vote with their wallets.
I feel the same way about smoking bans. I think the decision to allow or ban smoking should be up to the business owner, not the government.

Welcome to america, people are constantly looking for things to complain about, really it will be a fact of life until we have a robot like society on our hands.

Trust me, coolvapes, busybodies are a global phenomenon, they're not exclusive to the US.

 

[suprtrkr]

Anyone exhaling either smoke or vapor looks the same to them, and since they despise smokers with a more than perfect hatred it's quite natural to them to hate vapers right into the mix, without bothering to make distinctions based on facts. These are very unhappy people suffering from the stresses and frustrations of modern life and who have a deep seated need to take it out on someone. The more targets they can find for their undifferentiated rage the better. Eventually they will die in a road-rage incident, lose their jobs over a huge emotional melt-down leaving them homeless, or be killed in a freak bowling accident. We just have to put up with them until that time arrives.

I vote for the bowling thing. Preferably today.

 

[BuGlen]

Sure. All the "complaints" come from non-vapers. So all the appeasing goes in the direction of the non-vapers.

I would like to see some appeasing of vapers.

As would I, but unfortunately we're the minority in many situations. In the context of the private business, they have to understand their customer base and appease them to establish a strong business model on return customers. It's not in their best interest to anger (and therefore lose) the majority of their customers by standing on principle (with the minority), especially when they have no dog in that race. It's their livelihood, the way they feed their families, and they need to run their business as they see fit within the legal confines of their area.

 

[PRODOS]

Your thread was about why some businesses prohibit vaping. One of the reasons is because smokers light up when they see people vaping. My friend Paul is a bar manager. They don't allow smoking, but didn't care about vaping, until smokers would start smoking at the bar when they see people vaping. The general manager didn't want to deal with it, so prohibited vaping. They finally reversed the no vaping policy, but smokers still light up when they see people vaping from time to time...

Thanks for that story. Very useful.

Do you happen to know why the "no vaping" policy was eventually reversed?

 

[stevegmu]

Thanks for that story. Very useful.

Do you happen to know why the "no vaping" policy was eventually reversed?

Because it was silly and they put up a sign at the bar saying e cigs are allowed, smokers can go out to the terrace for a smoke...

 

[PRODOS]

The way I see it, their reason is - it may displease you that you can't vape and you may seek coffee elsewhere, but allowing you to vape may drive off 2 (if not more) other customers that just wanted coffee and don't want to smell what you are vaping or inhale some nicotine - and that is a bigger loss to them.

1. Does vaping smell? And is that the basis of most complaints?
The complaints I've personally encountered so far (vaping for about 3 years) have come from people across the other side of the room. Even if there was a smell, they couldn't smell it.

2. Does the exhaled mist contain nicotine?
If it does (and I don't know if it does) ... If an e-cig could be developed that eliminated this, would that satisfy those who object to vaping?

The above are merely "open questions" which I ask myself and which I'd like to get to the bottom of, if possible.

I always treated vaping the same as smoking, if I couldn't smoke in the place before when I was a smoker that means I shouldn't vape in there because I'm not going to argue with a manager over "it's not smoke it's vapor".

Okay. But let's say someone DID argue with that manager.
And the manager not only changed his mind about vaping, but proceeded to try it himself?

That is exactly what happened at a restaurant my wife and I used to go to.

Of course, I'm not suggesting all vapers should go about it in this way.
Merely that it's one real life scenario, and real life possibility.

I can control myself long enough to wait til I get outside and vape just like I did with analogs. In my house, it's my rules and I will vape when I want, when I'm a privately owned business - it's their house, their rules. That's how I feel on the situation, and to each their own, but I would prefer to just not have to deal with the hassle.

Sure. No problem.

Thanks.

 

[PRODOS]

Because it was silly and they put up a sign at the bar saying e cigs are allowed, smokers can go out to the terrace for a smoke...

That's great! I love this story!

Were you one of those who explained the issue and influenced the final outcome?

Is it possible to have a photo of these signs?

 

[PRODOS]

As would I, but unfortunately we're the minority in many situations. In the context of the private business, they have to understand their customer base and appease them to establish a strong business model on return customers. It's not in their best interest to anger (and therefore lose) the majority of their customers by standing on principle (with the minority), especially when they have no dog in that race. It's their livelihood, the way they feed their families, and they need to run their business as they see fit within the legal confines of their area.

1. The people who complain are a minority. At the place I described at the beginning of this thread, over the last 2 years, I vaped at that place ... let's see ... on at least 50 days. No-one ever complained. Then, suddenly, two people (perhaps sitting at the same table and egging each other on?) two weeks ago complained. The complainers were not even near my table. My wife and her Mom also ate there. The shop now loses at least 3 customers. Then there are those in Cincinnati to whom I've told the story. Some of them will stop going or go less often.

2. Regarding angering and losing customers. Appeasing the uninformed doesn't do them or the community any favours. It gives courage and power to the whiners. In FACT most who "complain" are not actually complaining. They're just concerned and/or confused. This can usually be dealt with by giving them the facts. Anyone who knows the facts about vaping (and is not a little power-lusting busy-body by nature) becomes relaxed about others vaping.

Thanks.

 

[ddirtyvapes]

I'm a little surprised that no one has yet brought up that all of the waxing on about how e-cigs are "completely harmless" to others in an enclosed space is really kind of misguided. Sure, for most of the population, e-cigs are LESS harmful than cigarettes from a second-hand perspective. However, wasn't it Rip Trippers who told the story about his friend's anise-flavored eliquid setting off an allergic reaction in someone nearby?

It's not only about respect, but the safety of those around you. Frankly I think vaping in an enclosed area when even one person doesn't want you to-- whether it's based on misunderstanding or not-- is the height of inconsiderateness. It's not that difficult to step outside.

I dunno, sorry, I see these kinds of questions all the time and the answers are usually about the same. Even if there is no law in place, it's important to at least recognize that, at best, vaping indoors around strangers forcibly imposes your habit on others without consent. At worst, it could make one of those people exceedingly ill.

I get that it's slightly inconvenient, but ultimately I don't find this specific issue all that complicated. Maybe that's just me.

 

[PRODOS]

I've been sitting here trying to come up with a well thought out response to the op's question, and all I could manage was to agree with Romano Cheese:

I may disagree with a vaping ban, but I support the right of a business to enact one ...

I support the right of business to reverse their ban and to exercise their right to stop being uninformed.

And I support the right of vapers to (when appropriate) clarify matters with misinformed and poorly informed businesses and fellow citizens.

Such things can be done respectfully and with good will -- if and when it seems appropriate, should a vaper be so inclined.

And I agree with "voting with your feet" too. That's often the best course: Find another place.

 

[PRODOS]

Greetings PRODOS.

There is nothing new about e-cigarettes. E cigarettes are just miniature versions of theatrical foggers. Both types of devices vaporize a liquid using an electric heating element and both produce a breathable fog. The fluid used in theatrical foggers generally contains propylene glycol and/or glycerin and/or water. Theatrical fog has been thoroughly studied over the years and has been found to cause temporary eye irritation in sensitive individuals but not much else.

Most liquids used in e cigarettes are composed mainly of propylene glycol and glycerin with some types containing nicotine. Nicotine has been fully tested since its isolation in 1828 and is generally considered to be about as harmful as caffeine. Most studies have shown that nicotine by itself is non-addictive or mildly addictive.

Nicotine is not a tobacco product. In North America nicotine is generally extracted from Nicotiana tabacum leaf because tobacco is inexpensive and readily available. Nicotine can, and has been, extracted from Duboisia leaf but the Australian Pituri shrub does not grow well in North America or Europe. Some types of Duboisia such as Duboisia hopwoodii contain up to 5% nicotine by weight compared to about 3% for ordinary cultivated tobacco. Nicotine can also be synthesized.

There are no differences between USP nicotine coming from the various sources. Nicotine is not a “tobacco product” even if its source happens to be tobacco.

Sadly, the facts will not prevent the lunatic elite from imposing whatever rules they like. In my youth I mixed the yellow dye into margarine because the lunatics had banned yellow margarine. It came lard white with a packet of yellow dye that had to be mixed in before using.

Thanks. Very helpful information.

 

[PRODOS]

I dunno, sorry, I see these kinds of questions all the time and the answers are usually about the same. Even if there is no law in place, it's important to at least recognize that, at best, vaping indoors around strangers forcibly imposes your habit on others without consent. At worst, it could make one of those people exceedingly ill.

I get that it's slightly inconvenient, but ultimately I don't find this specific issue all that complicated. Maybe that's just me.

Most people -- as in hardly anyone -- are not physically inconvenienced by having a vaper nearby.

If someone has an extreme sensitivity to someone's vaping (or perfume or whatever) a thoughtful person (which is most people) would try to accommodate this. Failing that, the manager of the premises is always within his rights to determine what's allowed or not. For instance, to ask the vaper to stop, or to get the affected person outside.

If the standard of (private or legalised) banning is that someone, somewhere, at some time could have an adverse reaction, the banning of vaping will be the least of our problems.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Anyone exhaling either smoke or vapor looks the same to them, and since they despise smokers with a more than perfect hatred it's quite natural to them to hate vapers right into the mix, without bothering to make distinctions based on facts. These are very unhappy people suffering from the stresses and frustrations of modern life and who have a deep seated need to take it out on someone. The more targets they can find for their undifferentiated rage the better. Eventually they will die in a road-rage incident, lose their jobs over a huge emotional melt-down leaving them homeless, or be killed in a freak bowling accident. We just have to put up with them until that time arrives.

Interesting attitude...

 

[PRODOS]

He? I'm a woman. Check the photo.

Ah! Apologies. But ... you don't deny the rest of my characterisation!

 

[Isabelle49]

Greetings.

I'm from Melbourne, Australia. Currently visiting family in Cincinnati, USA.

I was vaping in a cafe in Cincinnati. I had been doing so every day for the last few weeks.
In fact I did so last year at the same cafe, nearly every day for the 6 weeks my wife and I were visiting the USA.

Never had a problem with it.

Then, a week or so ago, the manager of the cafe approached me and said he'd had two complaints AND that smoking and e-cigarettes were not permitted.

I've written to the the cafe chain's support department to ask for clarification and to ask:

Why are traditional cigarettes treated the same way as "e-cigs"?

So far, no reply on that.

Meanwhile I've become curious about HOW companies determine their e-cig/vaping policies.

Here are a couple of items which point to the thinking involved:

Human Resource Executive Online | What to Do about E-Cigarettes

E-cigarette use should not be allowed in any locations where use of traditional tobacco products (cigarettes, cigars, pipes and smokeless-tobacco products) is not permitted.​

While e-cigarettes do not technically produce "smoke,” they do produce a vapor or aerosol that contains exhaled nicotine, flavoring compounds and other chemicals. Until long-term exposure to these ingredients is proven to be safe, non-smokers should not have to be exposed to second-hand vapor ...​

Should Employers Ban E-Cigarettes in the Workplace?

Many employers are electing to ban e-cigarettes indoors or in the work area or, alternatively, say that they can be used only in designated smoking areas outside of the work facility, Jay Hux, an attorney with Fisher & Phillips in Chicago, told SHRM Online. These devices contain nicotine as well as detectable levels of known carcinogens and toxic chemicals, and prohibiting their use in the workplace eliminates the risk of any complaints from nonsmoking co-workers, customers or others annoyed by the vapors.​

Quirky Question [HASHTAG]#228[/HASHTAG], E-Cigarettes: To Vape or Not to Vape at the Workplace | Quirky Questions

Studies have found that vaping worsened indoor air quality, specifically by increasing the concentration of nicotine, particulate matter, PAHs and aluminum — compounds that have been linked to lung and cardiovascular disease and cancer among other health effects.​

I welcome comments and clarification.

Thanks.

PS: Sorry, but the forum has automatically removed the links I included. This is probably a forum setting that applies to newbies.

Best Wishes,

PRODOS

In New Orleans vaping and smoking are banned in all places of business except for Cigar Bars.

 

[stevegmu]

That's great! I love this story!

Were you one of those who explained the issue and influenced the final outcome?

Is it possible to have a photo of these signs?

No I didn't have anything to go with it. I asked Paul last time I was there and he said they just put up a no smoking sign at the entrances. They didn't previously have no smoking signs, but it is a given in Prague if there are no ashtrays smoking isn't allowed. Vaping isn't seen as smoking there but some tourists seemingly don't see the difference, but apparently do see the no smoking sign. I may have a pic in my archives. I'll have a look...