E-smoking could be worse than real cigarettes

[Kitabz]

How would you defend yourself against those speculations?

Don't. There is no requirement to defend your actions.
You might be correct, they might be correct; no-one knows for sure.

How many times have we heard that such-and-such is a healthier alternative only to be told sometime later that it's not (or is indeed worse, e.g., transfats versus animal fats)?

We all pays our money and takes our chances.
C'est la vie...

 

[nonamebrand]

Thanks for the information everyone. The e-cigarette interview with David Sweanor was interesting.

I've been searching google for Propylene Glycol in cigarettes and you guys are right. leaford was pretty accurate, as PG is claimed to be used to keep cheap reconstituted tobacco from drying out.

Nicotine - Check
Flavourings - Check
Propylene Glycol - Check
Water - well if you're worried about water, you'll just get a funny look from me

So the main ingredients are already in analogs. So when he attacked the PG, he was inadvertently attacking analogs. My ex-smoker uncle always brings up the PG and how it can not be good for us. After the PG is brought up anybody who is listening will perk up. I can't blame them, I knew as much about PG as they did. Well there ya go, it's already in analogs, foods, inhalers and has been generally recognized as safe by the FDA. Well at least next time round I can get him or anybody else off my back with the PG issue now.

 

[strayling]

So the main ingredients are already in analogs.

I was just about to post that. Additionally, you might mention that nothing is being burned in the e-cig. An analogy I've found useful is to compare the smell of baking bread to that of burning toast.

 

[NY JETS]

For example, the batteries could cause cancer, there could be something in the atomizer that causes something 10x worse than real cancer

How would you defend yourself against those speculations?

I heard some guy out in Wyoming took a puff of an e-cig and spontaneously burst into flames


Oh wait, 10x worse.....he burst into flames while an entire kindergarten class beat him with wiffle ball bats at a Celine Dion concert.

 

[marska48]

I heard some guy out in Wyoming took a puff of an e-cig and spontaneously burst into flames


Oh wait, 10x worse.....he burst into flames while an entire kindergarten class beat him with wiffle ball bats at a Celine Dion concert.

i think thats the next "true" claim to be made by a government or tobacco spokesperson. all their other claims have just been leading to this...

 

[Kitabz]

So the main ingredients are already in analogs. So when he attacked the PG, he was inadvertently attacking analogs.

This is true but, as has been said [Paracelsus] "the dose makes the poison".

I'm being devils advocate here but we cannot say that e-cigs are safer than smoking. I'm inclined to believe that they most likely are but, in the absence of evidence, no-one can say one way or the other.

I'm getting some odd side-effects from e-smoking (nothing serious and not to the extent that I'm wanting to stop/revert to analogs) but, as a former smoker who had no [visible/apparent] side-effects from analogs, there is clearly something going on which my body is not entirely happy about.

 

[jamie]

How about Pancreatic Cancer, like my father had, and he died at age 43... Look at Patrick Swayzee... still smoking even through all the horrendous treatments to save his life... through pnemonia.. and he said... I will quit smoking when I HAVE TO. Hello... you have a cancer caused by smoking, you have pnemonia... don't you have to quit yet?

Having a cancer that is known off the bat to be almost always fatal... if anyone doesn't have to quit it would be him.

Personally it wouldn't cross my mind to spend the remaining months of my life trying to quit smoking. Unfortunately the medical industry (now) does try to force cessation on people who are dying, at least in the US.

 

[flexy123]

See, you're making the same mistake as Health Canada, etc. As a general priciple, you'd be correct, IF there were any true unknowns here. But really, it's more a case of the facts being unknown to most people than of them being truly unknown. PG isn't some mysterious untested chemical, it's just unfamiliar to most people, so it's easy to play on people's fear of strange chemicals. But really, it is widely used, considered safe, and is much better understood than it's being portrayed.

leaford,

its not that simple. A study must not only include an analysis of the ingredients alone, but also what happens to the ingredients if they're heated, things like that.

Its such simple things as that some "safe" ingredients can turn "toxic" once heated...eg. certain oils. YES THIS IS ALL SPECULATION!


Again: Its not a BAD thing if we have rigurous testing!!

There must be unknowns since esmoking is relatively new...i dont think there are any long-term studies of the effect of X or Y if inhaled.

A simple study that PG is safe and ingredient X in the liquid is "natural" doesn't cut it.
Let me think...was it olive oil....something. Which is "safe"...but you're not supposed to cook with it since it turns into something cancerous at certain temps. As an example, things like that.

Asking such questions is very legit. I do NOT say "ban them" because such 100% testing has not been done yet. Its STILL way more likely that anas are WAY more harmful - here we KNOW they are.

Its a far way from asking questions to a ban! <--

 

[verhoeven]

I starting into the ecigs because I heard that nicotine doesn't cause cancer but all the other chems in a real cig does.

I don't know what to make of this article at

Is Nicotine Dangerous?8-o

 

[mamu]

Basically when I said analogs are proven to give cancer, he said e-cigarettes could be 10 times worse. And that's not the first time I've heard something like that in a face to face conversation with a smoker.

Here's your script to these silly people:
The components of inhaled vapor, nicotine and propylene glycol, are proven non-carcinogenic agents per FDA. There is no tar to coat your lungs and cause cancer, emphysema, and shortness of breath. It's safe to be near children and asthmatics because there is no second-hand smoke. There is no smell to make you, your clothes, and your hair stink. There is no possibility of causing a fire because there is no fire. There is no smelly ashtrays or unpleasant lingering odors.

To smokers you say:
I understand your fear in thinking you may have to give up your addiction to cigarettes. But you're not giving up your addiction, you're just switching to a healthier form of it.

 

[jburns]

How about Pancreatic Cancer, like my father had, and he died at age 43... Look at Patrick Swayzee... still smoking even through all the horrendous treatments to save his life... through pnemonia.. and he said... I will quit smoking when I HAVE TO. Hello... you have a cancer caused by smoking, you have pnemonia... don't you have to quit yet?

Sad Sad Sad.

Lisa

The addiction can be overwhelming.

A number of years ago I was visiting a friend who was in a veterans hospital. He was sharing a room with an old man who was dying of cancer. The old man asked me to light a cigarette for him. I did and then stood there amazed as held held it up to his throat and proceeded to take heavy drags through his tracheotomy tube.

 

[deewal]

If your not happy and don't feel safe using Personal Vaporiser's then stop using them and go back to Tobacco Cigarettes.
There is an immense amount of information on this site about all aspects of E-Cigs including Nicotine, PG, VG and Health. Read It.
I would suggest that the Smoker who tells you it is unsafe simply does not want to stop smoking.
There seems to be a rash of posts from New Members lately about "Safety". I repeat "If your not happy then stop using them and go back to Smoking.
Your probably going to Have to do that shortly anyway.

ps. Be very Wary of your Hard Drive, CPU, Ram and DVD Drive and Motherboard. They're Made in China and are infecting you as we speak.
pps. I'm not in a very good mood tonight.

 

[taz3cat]

Jburns, the way I see it the old man had nothing to lose, may as well get some enjoyment on the way out. So, he may have lived another 2 or 3 weeks if he didn't smoke that cig. LOL

PS. once you get cancer it's too late to worry about getting it.

 

[jburns]

Jburns, the way I see it the old man had nothing to lose, may as well get some enjoyment on the way out. So, he may have lived another 2 or 3 weeks if he didn't smoke that cig. LOL

PS. once you get cancer it's too late to worry about getting it.

I agree but it was still a sobering sight. If I ever get told I have six months left get ready for a poor mans bucket list.

 

[iam0z]

Ok, I remember a couple years ago when the price of gas started to rise sharply and eventually made it to the point where it was close to or over 4 dollars per gallon and then the insertion of all kinds of electric vehicles hit the market. Electric car companies sprang up or already existing electric vehicle companies got more notoriety then WHAM!!!! The price of gas started comping down and fell below 2 dollars per gallon. Now, here comes the insertion of higher taxes on cigarettes in the US and my own habit which was already costing me about 120 dollars a month was going to be increased about 80 more dollars per month. So I thought, well gas went up and I bought an electric bicycle and I haven't bought so much as a gallon of gas for my personal transportation since then and then I found electronic cigarettes and I thought, well ok let's make my entire life run on electricity. So, I researched them and found a lot of what read about them to be favorable not only in cost but also in personal health. So, I said why not I'll try it. As a result of that my lungs started clearing themselves out within days and I was really happy to get rid of the ash trays and all the mess and filth that goes along with maintaining a habit with analog cigarettes not to mention being able to get rid of the greater potential threat of fire. They completely got me off analog cigarettes and are really helping me with my personal budget. And I feel a great deal healthier now and am not getting out of breath or experiencing as much fatigue when riding my bicycle. So, is it safe? Well, so far so good. I love my E-cig. Not only does it taste better than any cigarette I have ever smoked but it has really enhanced my life on several notes including one aspect I had never considered. One day last week I was downtown on an errand and crossed the path of a homeless person who stopped me to see if he could "bum a smoke" from me. And I smiled and said, "sorry fella this is the only one I have" referring to my e-cig. And escaped having to reluctantly hand out charity to someone I clearly didn't think deserved it. So, are they safer? I'd say the simple fact of eliminating fire from the "smoking" equation makes e-cigs safer by far. As for they're being banned? Well, hell yeah, the government would like to see their tax revenues go back up by forcing people to buy real cigarettes thereby forcing them to fund the cost to the health care system they create by continuing to smoke. And the tobacco companies are certainly going to try to protect a market they have solely owned and don't have to share. Not to mention, what will happen to the local economies from the farmers of tobacco to the production worker in the facility that makes cigarettes to the middle and upper level management of these companies who produce tobacco products. But like the other guy said, look at what the automobile did to the transportation industry. And what do ya wanna bet a lot of folks employed in making horse buggies found a more sound future working in a plant that builds cars. So, the way I see it is this. Will the governments of these countries let something flourish and survive, that is potentially going to relieve the health care industry, that has the potential to drastically reduce the number of cancer cases that cost us so many human lives every year? Or are they going to try to stamp it out just to placate those whose very livelihood is tied up in one of the most dangerous habits to ever appear on the face of this planet? Oh and heaven forbid that we dare try to take away the thing the anti-smoking Nazis' complain about which is second hand smoke. I really think it's kinda weird that all they care about is keeping from having to smell smoke from time to time rather than be concerned about the number of lives it consumes. I don't know who said it first but he was right. "Some people aren't happy unless they have something to complain about". Here we have been introduced to what I think is an excellent idea which holds the potential to save untold countless lives and it is likely to be crushed out of existence to save something we definitely knows kills people.

 

[nonamebrand]

Just for the record, I'm the OP. And I'm not against e-smoking in any way. The title of my thread may indicate that I'm condemning e-smoking, but I am actually totally for it. I simply just wanted to get the reactions and opinions of you good people to what people have been saying to me when I use or talk about my e-cig in front of them.

Another thing I wanted was to get some of your ideas on how to answer some safety questions that I have commonly come across while talking to people face to face.

In the car shop where I work, a lot of customers smoke but I have not seen anybody with an e-cigarette yet. While the customers are waiting for their cars, I chat them up and vape with the smokers. When I mention or whip out my e-cig it always sparks a discussion, which always hits the topic of safety. The bad image Health Canada has given the e-cigarette isn't helping too much either. Not that I buy into what Health Canada says at all. I mean if they want to ban e-cigarettes but not real cigarettes, common sense tells me to take what Health Canada says with a grain of salt. That is my main point when people tell me what Health Canada has done is good. It's pretty obvious our health is not number 1 on Health Canada's decision to crackdown on e-cigarettes.

Anyways thanks to everybody I'm armed with more information for the next time I run into a discussion about e-cig safety.

 

[jingai]

For example, the batteries could cause cancer, there could be something in the atomizer that causes something 10x worse than real cancer, glycerine could mess up your lungs, you can't trust products from China, etc.

You're not smoking the batteries. In fact, you're not "smoking" anything. The "atomizer" is nothing more than a heating element.

ALL you get from doing this is vaporized PG and L-Nicotine. Both of those /could/ be harmful to your lungs and other vital organs, but I'm wagering it's better than smoking a cigarette with a ton of other chemicals, even ignoring the CO you get naturally from combustion.

Here's how you defend yourself: cigarettes have a lot more than 2 active ingredients.

-j

 

[flexy123]

The addiction can be overwhelming.

A number of years ago I was visiting a friend who was in a veterans hospital. He was sharing a room with an old man who was dying of cancer. The old man asked me to light a cigarette for him. I did and then stood there amazed as held held it up to his throat and proceeded to take heavy drags through his tracheotomy tube.

other way around:

it would be WAY more bizarre if he'd said:

"No thanks. I don't smoke. It's not healthy." While he's dying of cancer...

G.

 

[leaford]

leaford,

its not that simple. A study must not only include an analysis of the ingredients alone, but also what happens to the ingredients if they're heated, things like that. ...
...There must be unknowns since esmoking is relatively new...i dont think there are any long-term studies of the effect of X or Y if inhaled.

A simple study that PG is safe and ingredient X in the liquid is "natural" doesn't cut it.

I'm not saying that that it doesn't need any more testing, or that there aren't any unknowns, but we know enough about it to draw reasonable conclusions for more testing to confirm. IOW, too many government officials are acting like we don't know anything about it, even whether or not it's toxic or carcinogenic. WE AT LEAST KNOW THE BASICS.

Studies HAVE been done, just not very many, and all indications are that it is reasonably safe. Long term inhalation studies have been done on rats, monkeys, and even children, in doses up to 1800ppm for periods up to 12 months with no harmful effects. Our e-cigs deliver about 32ppm, BTW, which dose, even NASA considers safe for its astronauts.

It is relatively non-toxic, isn't carcinogenic, it dries out tissues which can cause mild irritation in eyes, skin, nose, etc, it breaks down into normally occuring metabolites which temporarily raises the body's acidity.

Health NZ's study summarizes some previous research (http://healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport21-Oct-08.pdf) . Also, NASA has evaluated it's safety in a spacecraft's atmosphere(Spacecraft Maximum Allowable Concentrations for Selected Airborne Contaminants: Volume 5). It's being studied for medicine inhalers (Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. - Journal of Aerosol Medicine - 20(4):417). And a lot of this goes all the way back to the 40's (TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION -- ROBERTSON et al. 91 (1): 52 -- Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeutics).

But the FDA, WHO, anti-tobacco lobby, and ignorant journalists play it up like we know nothing about it, not even enough to conclude that it's safer than cigarette smoke.

 

[esmok-e]

Oh no! Water?

"I never touch the stuff; fish fornicate in water."
W.C. Fields

In front of children?

"I love children; when they're properly cooked."
W.C. Fields