Ecigs Worse than Cigarettes Says Local Man

[CKCalmer]

@CKCalmer:

I basically agree. I will also vape "underground" instead of going back to tobacco.
And no, I will not feel like an "evil criminal" any more than the customers of speakeasies did during Prohibition

But what do you mean by "reasonable taxation"?
The buyer already pays sales tax and VAT. Like on any consumer product he / she purchases.
There is no reason whatsoever for additional taxation. To levy a "sin tax" you need a product that is a "sin (alcohol, cigarettes, gasoline... CO2, atmosphere, blather blather..). vaping causes no harm. Not to the user, not to bystanders, not to the environment.
Ergo: there is no reason for additional taxation. Except, of course, government greed.

I agree with you. When I wrote that I could accept "reasonable taxation", I hadn't posited any particular examples in my mind of what I might consider an "acceptable tax" on vaping. I was (rather clumsily) leaving open what I considered to be a "negotiating handle" in the interest of magnanimity towards our current and future "opponents".

That was wrong on my part. I've adjusted my position to be the following: ANYTHING that is applied to vaping as a tax or restriction should really have a valid and specific justification. Otherwise, it should not be considered acceptable by the tax-paying public, whether they're vapers, smokers or none of the above.

Thank you for the correction.

Almost everything I buy online is not taxed. Granted I only buy liquids at this point but they are not taxed.....yet.

ETA: Just double checked my packing slip to be absolutely sure..... Listed:

Sub-total $126.00
Shipping $4.00

Amount paid $130.00

That's been my experience as well. To the best of my knowledge, in fact, I can't remember ever once paying taxes on anything I purchased online in the past 15 years or so of shopping on the internet.

If I still held by my previous position on the subject, I would have clarified my reference to taxation to mean face-to-face purchases only. But since Anjaffm so rightly challenged my position on the matter, my taxation references prior to this post are duly rendered moot.

 

[Baldr]

Almost everything I buy online is not taxed.

But it probably should be. And I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the rules change.

Right now, I think the rules are "If you order something which is shipped to you from inside your state, you pay tax, and if it's from outside, you don't". I live in Texas, and I pay tax when I order from a Texas company, but not when I order from companies in other states.

I'm speaking only about sales tax, of course. I agree with you that vaping shouldn't be subjected to additional "sin tax" type stuff.

 

[PhyscOsiris]

Last nite I had my room mate tell me that the use of vapor has caused me to lose my sense of smell LOL,for one I can smell a lot better since I quit smoking and I was getting over a cold plus I have allergies and he knows that (yet he chews and was a smoker for 10 years!) just 2 weeks ago I had someone tell me that using vapors causes people to get pneumonia or bronchitis. Personally for me since I've started vaping I will say that I have very little to no issues with asthma, I don't get real sick or sick as much as I used to (even smoking helped me) the use of a vapor has actually helped prevent getting sore throats from a cold

 

[DaveP]

When I smoked I couldn't detect half the things that non-smokers could. Once when I quit for over two years my sense of smell came back. After quitting once again decades later (thanks to ecigs) I can smell flowers from across the yard, trees, dirt, and all the smells associated with standing outside, and some smells I'd rather not detect.

As far as my sense of smell is concerned, not smoking is the key. Vaping does nothing to dull my nose and my sense of smell ia as good as It was before I ever smoked my first cigarette.

My clothes don't stink and my fingers don't have that stale tobacco scent.

 

[DaveP]

I'm watching the Dish recording of the Senate hearing on Tobacco regulations and the Senator from North Carolina, Richard Burr, is supporting ecigs as a safer alternative to smoking. He asked the committee not to take a knee jerk stance toward ecigs and to view them as a vehicle that offers a way to transition from tobacco, which is definitely a killer, and consider ecigs a way to get everyone who smokes off cigarettes. I think we have a friend in the hearings.

Mitch Zeller from the FDA seems to be a traditional government bureaucrat who can't seem to admit that ecigs represent a safer way to quit tobacco. Here in 2014, 5 years after the FDA stepped in and tried to squash ecigs, he says that they don't have enough information to say ecigs aren't a harmful product. He's saying that if people want to quit, they can go to the drugstore and buy Nicorette products which is designed to allow complete cessation of tobacco addiction. Tell me that Pharma reps haven't done their job in convincing the FDA to remain on their side. Senator Burr is arguing for ecigs as another alternative to pharma products. Zeller isn't buying into that.

Tom Harkin can't seem to get off the candy flavor train that has him convinced that ecigs aren't marketed to kids. He has a row of candy flavors in front of him that includes Cherry Crush, Cotton Candy, and several others. It's all about protecting the kids. Haven't we heard that over and over from his party?

 

[zoiDman]

I'm watching the Dish recording of the Senate hearing on Tobacco regulations and the Senator from North Carolina, Richard Burr, is supporting ecigs as a safer alternative to smoking. He asked the committee not to take a knee jerk stance toward ecigs and to view them as a vehicle that offers a way to transition from tobacco, which is definitely a killer, and consider ecigs a way to get everyone who smokes off cigarettes. I think we have a friend in the hearings.

Mitch Zeller from the FDA seems to be a traditional government bureaucrat who can't seem to admit that ecigs represent a safer way to quit tobacco. Here in 2014, 5 years after the FDA stepped in and tried to squash ecigs, he says that they don't have enough information to say ecigs aren't a harmful product. He's saying that if people want to quit, they can go to the drugstore and buy Nicorette products which is designed to allow complete cessation of tobacco addiction. Tell me that Pharma reps haven't done their job in convincing the FDA to remain on their side. Senator Burr is arguing for ecigs as another alternative to pharma products. Zeller isn't buying into that.

Tom Harkin can't seem to get off the candy flavor train that has him convinced that ecigs aren't marketed to kids. He has a row of candy flavors in front of him that includes Cherry Crush, Cotton Candy, and several others. It's all about protecting the kids. Haven't we heard that over and over from his party?

If anyone doesn't Know what Dave is Referring to, Please watch this CSPAN Rebroadcast.

FDA Regulation ECigarettes | Video | C-SPAN.org

BTW - I Can't tell if Harkin is Completely Lost. Or just Bold Face Lying. Or Both.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - The Girl camera Right from Dr. McAfee of the CDC looks Bored as Hell.

And looks like she would like to take a Hit off the eGo she has in her Purse.

LOL

 

[jamie0516]

I heard that Sunday. All I could think was "you have to be freaking kidding me?!" Its ignorance at its finest!

 

[Yankez]

I call people who take everything the media tells them as gospel, sheeple. Rather than think for themselves they'd rather let someone else tell them how to think and what to feel

 

[AndriaD]

How could he feel that PG is OK if he introduces it into patients' lungs, but not for them to use in an ecig? Other than that, an ecig is no more dangerous than Nicorette, IMO.

Because e-cig users don't need to go to him and send his kids to college to buy e-cigs and e-juice. All about money, remember?

My doc, on the other hand, has a primarily geriatric practice, which apparently includes a great many older ladies with COPD (it seems to kill off the older gentlemen faster than the ladies), and he is wildly in favor of e-cigs; wished me luck and hoped they helped me quit as they've helped a number of his other patients. He's a 62 yr old country doctor in a tiny podunk town in rural Georgia, and he's got more on the ball than some "pulmonary quack" who's probably renowned. (EDIT: He also charges a great deal less than the pulmonary quack I used to go to at St Joseph's Hospital in Atlanta, who charged me $200 just to walk in the door. I bet he's not in favor of e-cigs either. )

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I call people who take everything the media tells them as gospel, sheeple. Rather than think for themselves they'd rather let someone else tell them how to think and what to feel

My (frequent) experience is if you say to someone "Now, think about it..." (about ANYTHING!), they will groan like you just asked them to dig a 12 ft trench with their bare hands.

They would rather be poor, underpaid, underfed, inadequately housed, and incompetently and corruptly represented, than have to think ABOUT ANYTHING except what's on TV tonight or how the local sports team did... or in a pinch, the weather. When they (frequently) see me reading books, they say things like "you shore doo reed a lots o books!"

Yes, I despair of humanity. We have evolved, as a species, to be just as stupid as we can get away with and still live.

Andria

 

[CKCalmer]

Yes, I despair of humanity. We have evolved, as a species, to be just as stupid as we can get away with and still live.

Finally, I meet another person who feels the same way I do about humanity and the potential doom of our species promised by the appalling doltishness of so many members of our own generation and those who follow it.

I'm not sure precisely when I began feeling this way. It seemed to very gradually grow in my soul. Or perhaps it was growing on my soul, like a festering wound that became just a bit more infected every day, every time I read another depressing news article or heard the arguments of the galactically uninformed. I think I began realizing what it was sometime in 2008. With the exception of a handful of true heroes here and elsewhere fighting alone against the injustices of the world, the bulk of human society was devolving into a giant, malodorous ball of disorganized graft, group affiliation and unbridled self-interest.

Before letting myself think that all hope is lost, though, I try to keep myself focused on what we have to do to convince the very people who depress us the most that this life-saving miracle we call vaping is of critical importance as we try desperately to purvey to the world its benefits as a smoking replacement before the miracle ends up crippled by fatuitous liars and shameless cheats. It's a race we absolutely must win. Millions of lives now and in years to come may very well be hanging on the success or failure of this fragile minority of our generation to set all of this right.

 

[Anjaffm]

I agree with you. When I wrote that I could accept "reasonable taxation", I hadn't posited any particular examples in my mind of what I might consider an "acceptable tax" on vaping. I was (rather clumsily) leaving open what I considered to be a "negotiating handle" in the interest of magnanimity towards our current and future "opponents".

That was wrong on my part. I've adjusted my position to be the following: ANYTHING that is applied to vaping as a tax or restriction should really have a valid and specific justification. Otherwise, it should not be considered acceptable by the tax-paying public, whether they're vapers, smokers or none of the above.

Thank you for the correction.


That's been my experience as well. To the best of my knowledge, in fact, I can't remember ever once paying taxes on anything I purchased online in the past 15 years or so of shopping on the internet.

If I still held by my previous position on the subject, I would have clarified my reference to taxation to mean face-to-face purchases only. But since Anjaffm so rightly challenged my position on the matter, my taxation references prior to this post are duly rendered moot.

Thank you very much

However, maybe I was wrong.
I live in a country where all purchases - including online purchases from the same country - are subject to Value Added Tax (VAT). Whenever you buy anything, government takes its share, in VAT. Offline or online.

There is no State Sales Tax in our country, however, like you have in the States, where the sales tax of the state is added to your purchases.

I just researched the matter - and I admit that I did not know that the US federal government does not charge VAT, only the states charge sales tax - Value-added tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was wrong. I apologize.

...........

I am also flabbergasted

Wow, you guys can actually purchase consumer goods that are not taxed???? Including consumer electronics, clothing and everything and anything that you buy online?? I am turning green with envy here .... - - The German government takes 19% VAT on consumer goods, with some exceptions - lower VAT, not NO VAT, e.g. for books.

..........

Hm.. but then, e-cigs being consumer goods, tax them the same way that consumer goods are taxed. If they are taxed for offline purchases, tax them for offline purchases. If they are not taxed for online purchases, do not tax them for online purchases.

And I agree that there is no reason whatsoever - and no justification whatsoever - for imposing a tax on e-cigs that is not imposed on other normal consumer goods such as TV sets etc.

 

[Talyon]

In Canada I pay tax on all of my Vape gear, liquids etc online or in person, we call it HST (Harmonized Sales Tax).

For now at least it is Legal to Vape in Canada, time will tell if we follow the FDA, Or WHO in the near future.

 

[DaveP]

In spite of the bantering and positional arguments of yesterday's senate hearing, it looks like ecigs have an excellent chance of being supported by congress as a legitimate vehicle to transition from cigarettes to a much less harmful way to adjust nic intake and avoid the cancer risks associated with cigarettes.

The FDA Says E-Cigarettes Are Less Harmful Than Smoking | Motherboard

Senator Harkin and the CDC were staunchly opposed to ecigs. Senator Burr was clearly positive on ecigs and the FDA panel member Zelner agreed that ecigs should be tested, evaluated, and presented as our last chance to get people off tobacco and onto a safer alternative.

During the upcoming comment period we should all take the opportunity to write these people and support ecigs as the safer alternative and the proven way to transition off tobacco completely.

 

[zoiDman]

In spite of the bantering and positional arguments of yesterday's senate hearing, it looks like ecigs have an excellent chance of being supported by congress as a legitimate vehicle to transition from cigarettes to a much less harmful way to adjust nic intake and avoid the cancer risks associated with cigarettes.

The FDA Says E-Cigarettes Are Less Harmful Than Smoking | Motherboard

Senator Harkin and the CDC were staunchly opposed to ecigs. Senator Burr was clearly positive on ecigs and the FDA panel member Zelner agreed that ecigs should be tested, evaluated, and presented as our last chance to get people off tobacco and onto a safer alternative.

During the upcoming comment period we should all take the opportunity to write these people and support ecigs as the safer alternative and the proven way to transition off tobacco completely.

Just a Quick Question:

Does the FDA need the Approval of Congress to Do Anything? As long as what they Do is within the Authority they have been Given.

 

[CassiusCloud]

A guy at work said to me..
What a waste of money and you're still smoking,i mean right in front of everyone at break time..

I told him right back, at the break table in front of all there.
I haven't smoked since Oct 1st.
Also That if he could make smoke come out of the end of any one of these by pushing their button(layed all 5 of my mods i had on me at the time,in front of him on the table) i'd give him everything in my bank account and everything in my pockets..

But! If you can't, then i get everything in your bank account and in your pockets..

I added,it's gotta be smoke though,not vapor..
All he could say is,i don't even know how to work one of those damn things..
I said ,exactly. you don't know jack about them.

I just got tired of people just lazily throwing out their opinion in some cheap shot because they think it's safe to be a parrot..

Sometimes ya just gotta get Vegas on someone to get the point across that they just don't know squat..

It's been a bad week and he just pushed on the worst day of it..

 

[AndriaD]

I am also flabbergasted

Wow, you guys can actually purchase consumer goods that are not taxed???? Including consumer electronics, clothing and everything and anything that you buy online?? I am turning green with envy here .... - - The German government takes 19% VAT on consumer goods, with some exceptions - lower VAT, not NO VAT, e.g. for books.

There actually is a version of the VAT imposed here, in some random jurisdictions (usually counties) on cars, called the "ad valorem" tax, which they impose on the yearly fee of the "tag" for the car. The county I live in has recently begun phasing it out for those who have bought cars since 2012, rightly considering that the sales tax on a car is so whopping that there is no need for a further tax; I think it's to stimulate the economy, which had been so stultified since about 2007 that no one was buying much of anything, nevermind cars. This takes about $200 off the price of the tag; for our truck which we bought in Mar 2012, the tag, *with* the ad valorem tax, would have been about $230/yr; we opted into the "no ad valorem" and now our tag costs about $25/yr.

Hm.. but then, e-cigs being consumer goods, tax them the same way that consumer goods are taxed. If they are taxed for offline purchases, tax them for offline purchases. If they are not taxed for online purchases, do not tax them for online purchases.

And I agree that there is no reason whatsoever - and no justification whatsoever - for imposing a tax on e-cigs that is not imposed on other normal consumer goods such as TV sets etc.

I completely agree, but you know, preaching to the choir. Somehow they got the idea that it's ok to impose ridiculously excessive taxes on things that are "bad for us," and of course, anything we enjoy *must* be bad for us. Gotta be the puritan mentality.

BTW, followed you yesterday on the blue birdie; you always have such interesting and on-point things to say about this e-cig ruckus!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

A guy at work said to me..
What a waste of money and you're still smoking,i mean right in front of everyone at break time..

I told him right back, at the break table in front of all there.
I haven't smoked since Oct 1st.
Also That if he could make smoke come out of the end of any one of these by pushing their button(layed all 5 of my mods i had on me at the time,in front of him on the table) i'd give him everything in my bank account and everything in my pockets..

But! If you can't, then i get everything in your bank account and in your pockets..

I added,it's gotta be smoke though,not vapor..
All he could say is,i don't even know how to work one of those damn things..
I said ,exactly. you don't know jack about them.

I just got tired of people just lazily throwing out their opinion in some cheap shot because they think it's safe to be a parrot..

Sometimes ya just gotta get Vegas on someone to get the point across that they just don't know squat..

It's been a bad week and he just pushed on the worst day of it..

Calling out idiots on their idiocy is always a worthy enterprise...

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Finally, I meet another person who feels the same way I do about humanity and the potential doom of our species promised by the appalling doltishness of so many members of our own generation and those who follow it.

I'm not sure precisely when I began feeling this way. It seemed to very gradually grow in my soul. Or perhaps it was growing on my soul, like a festering wound that became just a bit more infected every day, every time I read another depressing news article or heard the arguments of the galactically uninformed. I think I began realizing what it was sometime in 2008. With the exception of a handful of true heroes here and elsewhere fighting alone against the injustices of the world, the bulk of human society was devolving into a giant, malodorous ball of disorganized graft, group affiliation and unbridled self-interest.

Before letting myself think that all hope is lost, though, I try to keep myself focused on what we have to do to convince the very people who depress us the most that this life-saving miracle we call vaping is of critical importance as we try desperately to purvey to the world its benefits as a smoking replacement before the miracle ends up crippled by fatuitous liars and shameless cheats. It's a race we absolutely must win. Millions of lives now and in years to come may very well be hanging on the success or failure of this fragile minority of our generation to set all of this right.

There's actually some evidence that humans evolved to be this "stupid." In the various forces, circumstances, and necessities that drove our evolution from pre-human to human consciousness, it was imperative, for survival, for us to identity threats very quickly and respond with the same alacrity -- you don't stand there and analyze when a saber-toothed tiger wants to eat you, you scram, FAST! Or hide, as the case may be, but you do it FAST, not with analytical and discriminatory thinking. Those are relatively recent innovations in human consciousness. So the "knee-jerk" response is a very old artifact in human consciousness, and is very much the norm -- without it, homo sapiens might not have survived at all. Those of us *capable* of analytical thought are operating at a much higher evolutionary level, even though we are still capable of the "knee-jerk" response. Unfortunately, it's kinda like school -- the classroom is constrained to go as slowly as the slowest person in it. So we are trying to evolve, with these newfangled things like analysis and discrimination, but still dragging the knuckle-draggers behind us who want to react with panic to every last new thing that comes along -- it might be a threat, panic!

The truly sad thing, as I've observed many times, is that knuckle-draggers tend to have a lot more children than the more evolved, who tend to only procreate to the level that they can support.

Andria