Read this! Is vaping sticky?

Discussion in 'ECF Competitions and Broadcasts' started by Oliver, May 26, 2017.

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  1. Eskie

    Eskie Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    If you think Wave 1 was interesting, wait until you read the Wave 2 questionnaire. They broke e cigs as separate from ENDS (which included e cigar and e hookah, and is for actual vape stuff, not Blu or Vuse)They had ~50 pages on e cigs, and 5 on ENDS. Very in depth understanding of vaping will come out of that data. :rolleyes:
    Oliver, LaraC, MacTechVpr and 2 others like this.
  2. Ryedan

    Ryedan ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2012
    Ontario, Canada
    I feel I have to comment on this since I was the one who brought up the 'A' word originally :)

    All of us who have switched completely to vaping from smoking have made vaping stick for us somehow. Reading my post again, I realize it could seem I meant more addictive is the only way to get to more sticky, but that is not how I see it. I just worry that it may be the easiest solution and hope that enough effort gets put into this so we don't end up going there. IMO the best thing to do is keep an open mind, stay vigilant and see what happens as things change.
    Opinionated and Robino1 like this.
  3. Eskie

    Eskie Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    I don't think manipulating vape stuff to make it more addictive is even needed. What is needed is testing what systems work best for those who want to stop smoking, a high 24 mg solution with a low airflow Nauti like setup, or lower nic 6 mg subohm types of systems. That would be more helpful assuring smokers can achieve a higher quit rate than trying to make it more addictive in the traditional sense of the word.
    Ardo, DaveP, Ryedan and 3 others like this.
  4. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    The premise of the article is that the tobacco controlers are misguided, not shameless self interested liars. I think they don't understand vaping because they don't want to understand.

    Bonnie Herzog is a financial analyst. Her readers are looking for business information, not health statistics. The connection between spending and vaping is not linear like it is with smoking and cigarettes.

    The author is right, vaping is misunderstood, even by vapers I would say. The approach she takes uncovers insights that may not be obvious even to vapers. But I still say, if there were no excise taxes on tobacco Han Lic would get the Nobel prize in Medicine.
  5. dripster

    dripster Full Member

    Feb 18, 2017
    I think the tobacco controllers understand perfectly fine, but they simply don't want everyone else to understand.
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  6. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    I agree but the author's premise is the tobacco contolers are misguided, not self interested. She does such a good job of it it's worth discussing.
  7. dripster

    dripster Full Member

    Feb 18, 2017
    What would it help if she changed her mind by plainly accusing them of being self interested?
  8. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    You are right unfortunately. There was a time, conflict of interest mattered. Not any more. The points in the paper won't sway the TC crowd but will help the people inclined to be on our side of the issue.
  9. Eskie

    Eskie Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    Ah it's really early where I am, but at least I'm not getting 404s so that's good. Now, what was the issue regarding TC that would be a contentious matter, because I don't recall one.
  10. Iv3shf

    Iv3shf Full Member

    May 25, 2017
    Definitely food for thoughts, the fun is in reading the comments!

    The point is that this is a vaping forum and WE know what we're talking about, it's THEM that don't know what we're talking about (Do they care really?)
    Can't wait for part two..
    Winblows and Ryedan like this.
  11. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Eskie, I broadly agree with everything you say, except to say that even your proposed changes wouldn't give much insight into the technology. You'll like part 2.

    Eskie likes this.
  12. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Personally, I think it's very hard to make vape more addictive: the most you can hope for is to increase nicotine pharmacokinetics to cigarette-like levels - this should make vaping more "satisfying" for existing smokers. But even then, there's myriad compounds in cigarette smoke that remain absent in e-cigs.

    TVC70, DaveP, MacTechVpr and 2 others like this.
  13. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Actually, there's no premise about intentions at all in this article.

    Amelia and I are not agnostic on intentions, and there's a whole piece of work to be done on just how broken this all is; it just doesn't help the particular argument which is, at its most straightforward: you can't understand vape using tobacco research.

    Nicole Li, Ryedan and Eskie like this.
  14. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    That's pretty much right. And then there's the interesting thing about how it is that this knowledge gets "transmitted", so that (say) the FDA understands how stupid the whole concept of a PMTA is at this stage in the innovation cycle.
    Iv3shf and Eskie like this.
  15. Bunnykiller

    Bunnykiller ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 17, 2013
    New Orleans La.
    the only thing that is sticky about other cessation options is the adhesive on the patches... ;)
    TVC70, Katmar, Rossum and 7 others like this.
  16. mcclintock

    mcclintock Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 28, 2014
    I know that every poll and questionnaire on vaping or smoking I've seen doesn't properly ask about dual use. OK you dual use, how many packs a day? .01 isn't an option either, multiple choice.

    It is a great question though, I've known a few smokers that mess around with ecigs but it doesn't really cut into their smoking. I do know smokers have a lot of weird things to say as sort of excuses to not vape. Two different people said they'd switch if exactly like their cigs, only to admit later they didn't enjoy the taste of smoking at all! They seem obsessed with the idea that they don't want a new addiction and therefore don't want it to be too good. This is a misunderstanding of how vaping works. I've said vaping works by being addictive and that's a misunderstanding also, although close. "Sticky" is a good word, a combination of some addictiveness and otherwise being attractive. "Magnetic" better depicts invisible lines of force however.

    A common fear expressed is that it's just exchanging one addiction for another, to which perhaps the best answer is yes and no, obviously cold turkey can not be improved upon if you have the willpower. For low willpower however, vaping is the real deal. It is a path to fully quit if that's what you really want, and if you don't really want to quit just want to not be ill, it's great for that too. And it is less addictive.

    As to making ecigs more addictive, again I must point out that tobacco additives have very little to do with it, whole tobacco is naturally more addictive than refined nicotine due to its other active ingredient, whole tobacco alkaloids. And absolutely, WTA-infused ejuices probably should be well known to fill in lack of satisfaction, available in every vape shop and convenience store that sells ecigs, because by the time people find small vendors on the internet with them they usually don't need WTAs anymore (although there's now the argument that nic salts are the answer, conventional nic actually makes some people sick and with salts the nic level can be increased without problem). At the same time, due to lack of understanding or some other reason, few point out the reduced effectiveness and addictiveness of pure nicotine ejuice does mean you're 90% of the way to quitting by the time you're only vaping. However the taste and enjoyment does get mixed up in your mind with nicotine so there's that.

    Chakris, Nicole Li, Ryedan and 2 others like this.
  17. y cherry y

    y cherry y Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 18, 2012
    Ypsilanti, MI
    I wouldn't call Goniewicz an enemy of vaping.
  18. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    Intentions are tricky. There are no mind readers. The traditional way to cover that is conflict of interest. Governments collect the lion's share of tobacco revenues. The people doing nearly all the whining about ecigs would see reduced funding as tobacco taxes declined. I consider that to be a conflict. All they need to do is shut up.

    May be the tobacco crowd can't understand methods to stop smoking that involve a dual use stratagy. What happened to me over my 6 weeks of dual using is cigarettes became less satisfying and didn't taste so good. I still needed motivation and a little bit of grit to stick to zero cigs. Today cigarettes taste and smell awful.
    Chakris, RainSong, Jingles and 3 others like this.
  19. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Whatever their current "understanding of methods to stop smoking" is, they're not going to discover anything about how people use vape to do so in the P.A.T.H data. Which is a crying shame, because a little slice of that $120mm could have gone a long way.
    Chakris, LaraC, AttyPops and 2 others like this.
  20. Eskie

    Eskie Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 6, 2016
    No kidding. But whoever wrote those wave 1 and 2 questions had no intention of addressing that. The token single question about stopping smoking with vaping does not constitute examination of the matter in any meaningful way. The committee that assembled this thing viewed vaping as just another tobacco product.
    Chakris and LaraC like this.

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