PWM, RMS, AVG, etc.

[Kemosabe]

i have noticed that many mods employ PWM, RMS, and even sometimes AVG.

as far as ive gathered, PWM is pulse width modulation, meaning that the battery sends tons of micro pulses to create the power rather than giving straight power.

i know that AVG is very strange and just kinda gives you the voltage that the mod feels like giving you. maybe its the average of all the voltages you have chosen at any given time. regardless, im not all that interested in AVG.

i am interested in finding out what RMS means and does. im also interested in finding out which type of power the Provari gives. is there even a name for that?

how about mechanical mods....which type of power do they use?

i have an ego twist and a vision spinner which i beleive are PWM(?).
i also have a VMod 2.0 which is mechanical, and i own a Provari. im just trying to figure out why my provari hits so much better than the other devices. its not enough to make me stop using my other devices, but the difference is noticable. regardless of the juice delivery system, it will fire better on the 'vari than on the ego for example.

thanks for any help.

 

[eHuman]

RMS = root mean square (it is the square ROOT of the MEAN or average, SQUARED)
RMS mode is able to recognize the on/off cycles of PWM and adjust the frequency in order to accurately achieve wattage set-point.
AVG mode is NOT able to accurately compensate for the on/off cycles of PWM. It averages the 0vdc and the 5vdc (or what ever the pulse voltage is) and concludes that the output is half of what is actually is so ramps up frequency to double of what it should be.
AVG has its uses, but does not belong in a circuit using PWM. If you want a stable output from a manually adjustable power supply, AVG circuitry is a win.

The reason you see an improvement with the provari over the twist or spinner is due to range capability.
The twist and spinner are capable of something like 3.3vdc to 4.8vdc range.
The provari is capable os 2.9vdc to 6 vdc.

What you see as an improvement in vapor production/volume, and TH is due to a higher wattage range achievable at higher voltages.

Mechanical MODS use neither. They are a function of battery voltage and resistance of atty.
Voltage^2 x resistance = Power
In order to "tune your vape" you must select the right Ω atty. As your battery drains, the wattage output decreases.

Advantage of a mech MOD is there are no electronics to fry, will presumably last longer, and is able to use lower Ω attys.
Advantage of VW APV is you can repeat your favored wattage regardless of what Ω atty you put on the device (see limitations below), will give you greater control to adjust wattage output without requiring an atty change.
APV limitations: Built in safety cut-off does not allow use of attys below 1.2Ω.

Both serve their purpose. I have one of each.

 

[Krog]

I'm glad there's people that can explain stuff like this and you did a great job putting it into terms I could understand. Thanks

 

[eHuman]

Thanks Krog,
Explaining RMS in layman's terms is more difficult than getting chocolate milk from a cow, it's possible but takes some real thinking.
The first couple times I tried to explain it to people, their eyes glazed over while I was still describing theory. I think the above simplifies it without a bunch of technical jargan. Much more can be said on it if you wanted to understand it fully.

The bottom line is, if you have a PWM device, use RMS if it is an option.
If you have a PWM device and RMS is not an option, drop your voltage to minimum and gradually increase it until you hit your sweet spot, EVERY TIME you put a new atty in. This will keep you from vaping a hot metallic hit or blowing coils accidentally.

 

[Kemosabe]

RMS = root mean square (it is the square ROOT of the MEAN or average, SQUARED)
RMS mode is able to recognize the on/off cycles of PWM and adjust the frequency in order to accurately achieve wattage set-point.
AVG mode is NOT able to accurately compensate for the on/off cycles of PWM. It averages the 0vdc and the 5vdc (or what ever the pulse voltage is) and concludes that the output is half of what is actually is so ramps up frequency to double of what it should be.
AVG has its uses, but does not belong in a circuit using PWM. If you want a stable output from a manually adjustable power supply, AVG circuitry is a win.

The reason you see an improvement with the provari over the twist or spinner is due to range capability.
The twist and spinner are capable of something like 3.3vdc to 4.8vdc range.
The provari is capable os 2.9vdc to 6 vdc.

What you see as an improvement in vapor production/volume, and TH is due to a higher wattage range achievable at higher voltages.

Mechanical MODS use neither. They are a function of battery voltage and resistance of atty.
Voltage^2 x resistance = Power
In order to "tune your vape" you must select the right Ω atty. As your battery drains, the wattage output decreases.

Advantage of a mech MOD is there are no electronics to fry, will presumably last longer, and is able to use lower Ω attys.
Advantage of VW APV is you can repeat your favored wattage regardless of what Ω atty you put on the device (see limitations below), will give you greater control to adjust wattage output without requiring an atty change.
APV limitations: Built in safety cut-off does not allow use of attys below 1.2Ω.

Both serve their purpose. I have one of each.

thank you, eHuman. that makes sense. what id like to know more about is how the range capability affects the vape. are you saying that becasue a provari can go from 2.9v to 6v instead of what a twist/spinner can do (3.3 - 4.8v), that that makes the vape itself better? say im using the provari at 4v and i use the same atty on the twist at 4v, are you saying that because of the fact that the provari has more range that it will vape better? because this is what im noticing. just trying to see if that is accurate.
also, does the provari use RMS?

 

[eHuman]

thank you, eHuman. that makes sense. what id like to know more about is how the range capability affects the vape. are you saying that becasue a provari can go from 2.9v to 6v instead of what a twist/spinner can do (3.3 - 4.8v), that that makes the vape itself better? say im using the provari at 4v and i use the same atty on the twist at 4v, are you saying that because of the fact that the provari has more range that it will vape better? because this is what im noticing. just trying to see if that is accurate.
also, does the provari use RMS?

What you may be running into is the twist set to 4v but not actually achieving it. I would be more willing to trust the provari voltage setting.

But my money is, you may be hitting the twist's maximum current output safety.
From distributors website: "Please note: Only use single coil cartomizers, standard or high resistance atomizers on these batteries. For safety, there is a built in amp limiter that will not allow the battery to over draw current. This may limit the voltage output on dual coil cartomizers." They do this because of the low C rating of the internal batteries. (see below amp/watts example for C rating)

Examples:
4v with a 1Ω atty = 4A &16w.
4v with a 1.5Ω atty = 2.67A & 10.67w.
4v with a 2Ω atty = 2A & 8w.
4v with a 2.5Ω atty = 1.6A & 6.4w.

The provari is capable of a higher amp draw (because of the recommended battery the safety cutoff is higher) so can reach it's true set point potential. So depending on what atty you are trying to use on the different PVs, you very well could notice the difference.

Battery C-rating: C rating is a value assigned to a battery based on it's performance characteristics, it is a "discharge multiplier".
The way manufacturers assign a battery mAh rating is determined by "how much current can you pull from the battery and have it last 1 hour".
If you have a 1000mAh battery, you can pull 1000mA or 1 amp and the battery will last 1 hour, IF the C rating is = 1.
If the same battery has a C rating of 2, then You can discharge the battery at 1000 mA x C (or 2 in this case). So you can safely discharge at 2 amps, but the battery is still rated at 1000mAh so it will only last 30 minutes.
Same battery with a C rating of 10, you can pull 10 amps and will discharge in 6 minutes.

All that to say, PV manufacturers put electronic safety limits on how many amps the device will produce based on battery chemistry.

I'm sure you have heard the term HD or high drain battery that MODs including your provari use? The difference is the battery, it is why certain MODs require you to buy certain batteries to use with them. Otherwise "any" 3.7v battery would work. If you use an old school 18650 battery in it with a low C rating, you risk it melting or blowing up (thank you battery protection circuits).
The higher the C rating of a battery the more it costs generally, due to manufacturing costs associated with more expensive raw materials.

Hope this helps.
E

 

[eHuman]

P.S. I Don't know what technology the provari uses to manage voltage output but understand it to be fairly accurate. RMS is more useful on a variable wattage device than on a variable volts device.

 

[Kemosabe]

i read that the amp limit on the twist is 3 but perhaps that info is inaccurate.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ego-type-models/298270-amp-limit-ego-twist.html

yes, im aware of the term high drain. maybe its that even though the twist may be capable of 3a, the quality of the vape is not as great because of the batt cell. maybe (likely?) the twist isnt a high drain batt. im gathering that a high drain batt will offer batter vape than a non-high drain like a trustfire. maybe the twist is more like a trustfire and the provari obviously would be the AW. im saying this because i know its not the amp limit causing the difference. im using a 2.2ohm atty at 4.2v (1.9a) on both the twist and the provari and the difference is noticable. is it safe to say that the battery chemistry itself is responsible for the better vape?
this whole time i thought it was the PWM/RMS/whathaveyou.

 

[eHuman]

I wouldn't think so, unless the battery chip itself (inside the twist) limited the current before the twist circuitry did.

I can literally tape two wires to a full charged 4.2 battery and connect it to a 2.2Ω atty and vape at 8 watts, it should be no different than sitting inside an APV who's voltage readings are spot on. Wattage is "work accomplished" (vapor/heat), current is how much of your battery reserve it took to do it. If two devices are firing an identical load (atty) but the results are markedly different, then one is being limited. The quality build of the provari does not magically cause better vapor. IF you feed the atty x voltage, it will perform y watts, doesn't matter what you put it in.

Either something in limiting your twist (battery itself or the twist's chip-set), or, the provari is hitting harder (Higher voltage) than it's set-point. But I wouldn't suspect the provari initially.

I agree with your findings. The twist "should" be able to fully fire at your setting and atty choice. If it isn't, there are only 1 of 3 reasons that I can think of:
Twist battery circuitry limiting it.
Twist MOD circuitry limiting it.
Provari putting out higher actual voltage than setting.

 

[Thrasher]

the provari uses a patented rms chipset called accuset, it will continuously monitor the output voltage and recalibrate itself on the fly to maintain set voltage no matter how the resistance changes.

will a device with the ability to create more voltage give a better vape? no, no it wont unless you plan to use those settings for the device attached and the other types of batteries cant go that high or low.

the problem with all these batteries is take a handful of egos, kgos, spinners and say a cheap lava tube, and set them all to 4 v and vape away, and then say only one of them gives you the vape you want. but is that one battery the only one at 4v? or is it the only one giving out 4.2? no real way to tell.
this is where a supposedly accurate rms chipset comes in, once you add load the output usually drops on a non rms or well regulated battery.

 

[Rader2146]

The Provari does not us a "patented RMS chipset". It uses an LC filter (Inductor+Capacitor) to take the on/off pulse train of the voltage converter and smooth it out to a flat DC voltage. It's really nothing special, the technology has been in use for decades. They just put it to use in an e-cig.

In the link below, in the first picture, you'll see the result of an LC Filter. The red line is the raw output of the switch (turning on and off 600,000 times per second). The blue line is the output after the LC Filter.

For RMS, and how it works....What is RMS?

 

[Kemosabe]

The Provari does not us a "patented RMS chipset". It uses an LC filter (Inductor+Capacitor) to take the on/off pulse train of the voltage converter and smooth it out to a flat DC voltage. It's really nothing special, the technology has been in use for decades. They just put it to use in an e-cig.

In the link below, in the first picture, you'll see the result of an LC Filter. The red line is the raw output of the switch (turning on and off 600,000 times per second). The blue line is the output after the LC Filter.

For RMS, and how it works....What is RMS?

thanks Rader. do you know of any mods or a way i can locate mods with the LC filter? id like to scoop another provari, but maybe i can save some cash and get just as good of a vape from another mod that has an LC filter.

 

[Thrasher]

icould have sworn i read the chip they use was patented but i do know accuset is the trademark.
but from provapes website:
Our built-in dynamic self-calibration algorithm keeps the output voltage accurate to 1% or better over the life of the product. The ProVari will constantly monitor and adjust itself to ensure you always get accurate voltage settings. Every device will auto-tune itself so it’s always precise!”

from an interview in spinfuell magazine: The AccuSet technology (created by ProVape) will constantly monitor voltage output, with accuracy to 1% or better over the life of the product.

Each ProVari will “autotune” itself so that your settings will always be accurate and worry-free.

It's really nothing special, the technology has been in use for decades. They just put it to use in an e-cig.

while i agree to a point , fimd me another mod that is within 1% or less and will stay there for the whole charge.

 

[bssage]

You all are beginning to lose me.

I have had several mods over the years. And a voltage meter. I have noticed that the same voltage on different devices will vape differently. And I really am not referring to the max output of the mod. I have been using vv for quite a while. And always vape on the lower end around 4v. And I am talking about a noticeable difference between the same carto on different mods.

The Gripper I have now appears to burn hotter even when I am metering the same voltage. And using a carto that I switch between the two mods. I can switch to my turbo and a couple of home made boxes. Same deal the gripper taste and feels hotter. This is kind of a side note. But it seems to me that some devices also get to their target (voltage) quicker and/or linger longer after the button is released.

Now if you fella's attempt to answer my question. I have a very basic understanding at best. I do understand it is probably hard to "dumb it down" enough for civilian to understand. I really do understand this is hard to do. And would not fault you for not attempting.

My head is thinking there is more to the equation than voltage, wattage, and resistance. I have no clue what.

I do have a Janty Mid Pre-ordered. Maybe the graphics interface will shed some light on how this stuff works for me.

 

[tnt56]

I wouldn't think so, unless the battery chip itself (inside the twist) limited the current before the twist circuitry did.

I can literally tape two wires to a full charged 4.2 battery and connect it to a 2.2Ω atty and vape at 8 watts, it should be no different than sitting inside an APV who's voltage readings are spot on. Wattage is "work accomplished" (vapor/heat), current is how much of your battery reserve it took to do it. If two devices are firing an identical load (atty) but the results are markedly different, then one is being limited. The quality build of the provari does not magically cause better vapor. IF you feed the atty x voltage, it will perform y watts, doesn't matter what you put it in.

Either something in limiting your twist (battery itself or the twist's chip-set), or, the provari is hitting harder (Higher voltage) than it's set-point. But I wouldn't suspect the provari initially.

I agree with your findings. The twist "should" be able to fully fire at your setting and atty choice. If it isn't, there are only 1 of 3 reasons that I can think of:
Twist battery circuitry limiting it.
Twist MOD circuitry limiting it.
Provari putting out higher actual voltage than setting.

Outstanding example and I wish I could put it to memorey.

 

[Thrasher]

I am talking about a noticeable difference between the same carto on different mods.

all the mods will fire differently, some use pwm or little pulses of voltage, some are the same as two wires running from the battery.
think of it this way if you take a wire and touch both ends of the battery real fast on and off it will take a bit longer to get hot then if you just hold it on the battery. while not a big difference in real world situations some say they can tell a difference none the less.

some of what you are seeing is due to the load of the carto.
setting a voltage and pressing the button with a meter attached is not the same as putting on the carto and pressing the button, sometimes the mod or battery will drop when there is a load. others can keep the voltage stable.

watching some of pbusardo's reviews he uses a meter that goes between the battery and carto and when he presses the button you can see the voltage drop down a little bit and if this is happening on your battery then the vape will change also.
some mods/batteries are better at stopping this, this is where the provari ultimately shines. no matter what you attach, no matter what ohms, if you set 4.1 when you press the button you get 4.1 and pbusardo has shown this in his review.

while this may explaine the differences for the same carto on different batteries, there is also the did they use thick or thin wire 4 wraps or 7 wraps in the coil. sometimes the way the coil is built will change the responsiveness of the device also and helps explain why this carto "seems hotter" faster than this tank etc.

 

[tnt56]

Okie Dokie. I've tried to explain the difference between the RMS VMS, and all I can tell everyone that if you understand it all your head will explode. I'm sorry I worked most of my life with electronics and stuff. (long time ago in a life very far away). If we're dealing with a "DC BATTERY". Then it should be direct current. Nothing fancy or anything else. I don't know if the SB's use anykind of PWM or anything but I do know that if I put a AW protected battery rated at 3100mah's with a 2.2 ohm carto, I can get the same vape I do from my Provari or Vamo or anything else I have for several days. I put a kick set at 7 watts in the SB with same battery and I can't tell the difference and neither can anyone else I've let try it. Bottom line!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's DC Direct Current = straight line voltage, not up and down and all around. I'm with the OP on this. Keep it simple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tnt56]

And it's nice to see you kemosabe and thrasher and all the rest. Been to long. Vape long and proud my friends.

 

[Thrasher]

And it's nice to see you kemosabe and thrasher and all the rest. Been to long. Vape long and proud my friends.

so hows the job dude? still with it? like it?

 

[tnt56]

Got told I got early stage of pneumonia yesterday so work is out for a while. When I got the pleasure to spend a week there it was wonderful. Already had a long chat with one boss about .................. how to praise it right. Beliefs................ Dont' sell people junk. I guess that fits the forum rules. Been chated to about ECF rules and also work rules............... Hard choice to make for me. But if not at work I can say what I feel................. That I can believe in. So after this goes away I'll be good and making the difference I want to make. Funny cause everytime someone has a question they can't answer it me they call. right or wrong I'll stand by my choice. Had it happen before and I never backed down. I got ECF for information and knowledge.