So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine
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I was fascinated with this recent post from Smokefree Pennsylvania's Bill Godshall on this forum. Consider what he said:
I think he saw this as "bad" for the future of e-smoking. I see a way out for the FDA. I've written before that someone who should know told me the FDA is looking for a way out now. This is that way.
This past week, a head of a corporation on the fringe of e-smoking (can't be more specific or blow a confidential source) had some e-liquid tested and phoned me with the results. There was almost no nicotine in the vapor. Same result Bill said we'd soon see in the news.
Well ... if there is not a sufficient amount of the drug nicotine to produce a physiological and psychological change, and if there's not enough to alleviate the medical condition called "nicotine addiction" then the e-liquid does not meet the FDA definition of a drug and the e-cig thus is not a "drug delivery device."
There's the save-face way out.
These are ineffectual by scientific test. Let us conclude whatever we conclude. Science has an answer the FDA needs.
I can live with that answer and e-cigs could continue to evolve.
I think he saw this as "bad" for the future of e-smoking. I see a way out for the FDA. I've written before that someone who should know told me the FDA is looking for a way out now. This is that way.
This past week, a head of a corporation on the fringe of e-smoking (can't be more specific or blow a confidential source) had some e-liquid tested and phoned me with the results. There was almost no nicotine in the vapor. Same result Bill said we'd soon see in the news.
Well ... if there is not a sufficient amount of the drug nicotine to produce a physiological and psychological change, and if there's not enough to alleviate the medical condition called "nicotine addiction" then the e-liquid does not meet the FDA definition of a drug and the e-cig thus is not a "drug delivery device."
There's the save-face way out.
These are ineffectual by scientific test. Let us conclude whatever we conclude. Science has an answer the FDA needs.
I can live with that answer and e-cigs could continue to evolve.
My experience thus far:
Started with 18mg juice in a 510. I had cravings like crazy. I was working the 510 as hard as I could to make them go away. It took 5-10 minutes for the cravings to go away.
The next week I moved up and now use 24mg juice. The cravings are slight now. I get them if I haven't vaped in a awhile or if the 510 is not working very well.
I've never been aware of nicotines effect. I don't get dizzy or a rush from it. First thing in the morning I'd be dying for a smoke though.
It seems likely that the nicotine in e-cigs is not very effective for at least some users. It is also possible my cravings have reduced simply by reducing my addiction.
For me its a non-issue. I'd prefer to be free of nicotine addiction, and to do that I'm going to have to suffer some withdraw.
The important thing to me is to stop smoking, and they've done that. At some point I'd like to be free of the PV as well.
My final goal is to only use a PV from time to time and only when I really want to. My big complaint with smoking was that I felt I HAD to smoke. One day I won't have to vape if its inconvenient to do so.
-Gooney0
Started with 18mg juice in a 510. I had cravings like crazy. I was working the 510 as hard as I could to make them go away. It took 5-10 minutes for the cravings to go away.
The next week I moved up and now use 24mg juice. The cravings are slight now. I get them if I haven't vaped in a awhile or if the 510 is not working very well.
I've never been aware of nicotines effect. I don't get dizzy or a rush from it. First thing in the morning I'd be dying for a smoke though.
It seems likely that the nicotine in e-cigs is not very effective for at least some users. It is also possible my cravings have reduced simply by reducing my addiction.
For me its a non-issue. I'd prefer to be free of nicotine addiction, and to do that I'm going to have to suffer some withdraw.
The important thing to me is to stop smoking, and they've done that. At some point I'd like to be free of the PV as well.
My final goal is to only use a PV from time to time and only when I really want to. My big complaint with smoking was that I felt I HAD to smoke. One day I won't have to vape if its inconvenient to do so.
-Gooney0
TropicalBob makes a great point too. The Model T was a great car, but it wasn't the perfect car.
As interest builds I bet we'll see much better PVs in the future. (i hope)
-Gooney0
As interest builds I bet we'll see much better PVs in the future. (i hope)
-Gooney0
Trog I just have to say that this would make me very happy! I would love to find out that I am no longer addicted to nicotine and that the e-cig tricked me into thinking I was still getting nic! Then I would know that all I had to do is kick the hand-to-mouth thing and no longer be a slave to anything. Nicotine is the only thing that has ever taken control over me. How wonderful it would be to find out that not even nicotine controled me any longer. I would not be mad at all, but that's just me I guess.
Well, we know we have nicotine in our liquids at labeled levels for some suppliers -- tested by a chemist on the forum (DVap) and others.
We know only about 40% of the nicotine in the liquid makes it into the vapour -- we lose 60% before we even have a chance to absorb it. Tested by DVap in a vapour capture experiment.
We know that a forum user has had blood levels done which have shown nicotine present in the bloodstream at levels lower than would be expected from smoking tobacco: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/30623-blood-test-lab-results-nicotine-levels.html
EDIT: We now know from someone who participated in a clinical trial that vaping delivers nicotine but a lot less when compared to smoking: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...daily-docket-sheet-update-243.html#post677284
All of this just backs up what has been widely believed on the forum for quite some time -- e-cigs are not very efficient at delivering the nic. However, all things being equal, they do deliver nicotine to users -- they are not merely placebos.
The really interesting part is that it would seem, for a large portion of smokers, a small amount of nicotine can satisfy the smoking urge if it is accompanied by faithful mimicry of the smoking action.
For those that will transition fully to vaping, I think the nicotine that is ingested is important to help in the successful transition, but I think it becomes less important over time. Of course, those that really like the nicotine or feel they need it to "balance themselves" in some way will likely be the ones looking for the stronger liquids and continue to use tobacco as well. In short, they'll likely not transition well or fully.
To me, this makes vaping much more of a cessation orientated activity. It actually tries to wean you off nicotine without your direct knowledge: the many, "I didn't even try to quit" type stories are stories of people who have not only stopped smoking but also likely cut their nicotine intake significantly -- quite happily. And this explains why the real "nic freaks" have a hard time with just vaping as you have to work harder (high nic liquid, high voltage, chain vape) if you use vaping as a way to maintain your nicotine levels as they were when using tobacco. Right now, the natural path of vaping tends more in the direction of cutting ones nic usage rather than maintaining that usage.
We know only about 40% of the nicotine in the liquid makes it into the vapour -- we lose 60% before we even have a chance to absorb it. Tested by DVap in a vapour capture experiment.
We know that a forum user has had blood levels done which have shown nicotine present in the bloodstream at levels lower than would be expected from smoking tobacco: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/30623-blood-test-lab-results-nicotine-levels.html
EDIT: We now know from someone who participated in a clinical trial that vaping delivers nicotine but a lot less when compared to smoking: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...daily-docket-sheet-update-243.html#post677284
All of this just backs up what has been widely believed on the forum for quite some time -- e-cigs are not very efficient at delivering the nic. However, all things being equal, they do deliver nicotine to users -- they are not merely placebos.
The really interesting part is that it would seem, for a large portion of smokers, a small amount of nicotine can satisfy the smoking urge if it is accompanied by faithful mimicry of the smoking action.
For those that will transition fully to vaping, I think the nicotine that is ingested is important to help in the successful transition, but I think it becomes less important over time. Of course, those that really like the nicotine or feel they need it to "balance themselves" in some way will likely be the ones looking for the stronger liquids and continue to use tobacco as well. In short, they'll likely not transition well or fully.
To me, this makes vaping much more of a cessation orientated activity. It actually tries to wean you off nicotine without your direct knowledge: the many, "I didn't even try to quit" type stories are stories of people who have not only stopped smoking but also likely cut their nicotine intake significantly -- quite happily. And this explains why the real "nic freaks" have a hard time with just vaping as you have to work harder (high nic liquid, high voltage, chain vape) if you use vaping as a way to maintain your nicotine levels as they were when using tobacco. Right now, the natural path of vaping tends more in the direction of cutting ones nic usage rather than maintaining that usage.
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I too love nicotine and take it intentionally. Just like caffeine. The facts I've seen so far are that several tests have shown the correct amount of labeled nicotine in the juices, but my own personal blood test showed about 15% of the expected nicotine absorption. I was glad to know I wasn't going to overdose, but sad to know I wasn't the desired amount of anti depressant I've grown to love
I agree, Heed. For me, anyway. 2 weeks after vaping and no analogs I was using TW 36mg 555 and didn't even taste it. I'd keep taking hits to completely fill my lungs, then hold it until there was no vaper on exhale just to absorb as much nic as possible. I did this until I got some higher strength liquid to spike in. I don't do that, now, as the 36 is ok and I'm also not chain-vaping like I was. My system is getting use to less nic, so I go much longer periods without. That said, whether I planned it or not (which I surely didn't) nicotine is loosing its hold on me.
Had a friend who doesn't smoke but smokes weed for years all the time. He'd smoke a analog once in a while. Well he was over and said let me hit the heavy stuff. I loaded up a 501 with 36mg. He took 5 hug hits not to fast. I feel dizzy, oh dam! ran to the bathroom and though up! Yes the old to much nic for a non smoker!
Very well put mike, but if he kept vapping the 36mg for two to four weeks all day his brain and body would be looking for more nicotine maybe 48mg? and then more nicotine maybe some 60mg? that's how the addition works.
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Very well put mike, but if he kept vapping the 36mg for two to four weeks all day his brain and body would be looking for more nicotine maybe 48mg? and then more nicotine maybe some 60mg? that's how the addition works.
That's not addiction, that's tolerance. How tolerance works is very different from a drug to another. It takes long to build tolerance to some drugs, it will be rapid with others. For some drugs you'll need a long break to reset your tolerance level, for others it will be a mere question of days.
Difficult to go further in the discussion without bringing up drugs that are taboo in western countries, so i'll stop here.
Hi Trog,I say we are getting it,nicotene that is! But I did have to go 48mg nic to satisfy my urges.I also do snus at the same time,cuz I really love my nicotene! Also,hurry up with that darn screwdriver I ordered from you, I love screwdrivers,they are a workhorse,and this will be my second one. My first one after 6 months,is still working,but not the same as brand new. I have not said anything before,cuz for me its hard to explain,but I will try. Where the atomozer screws into the body is where I am having my problem,that little screw on body came loose,so all the wiring wants to jump out! I told hubby to glue it but he thinks not
So,when the thing comes loose he sauders back 2gether for me with a warning the wiring is getting short,and once its to short its a goner! Thats why I ordered another screwdriver,but my other question is will you fix my first screwdriver? Hubby keeps it limping along,but only you do miracles I guessI felt satisfied and "normal" vaping once. It involved using 48mg liquid non-stop (no breath of fresh air between drags) for over an hour straight.
Oh, and a few times I felt okay after flooding my atty and getting a mouthful of juice.
Otherwise, I was useless at work (terrible concentration/focus issues) unless I had a cigarette every now and then. And I'd develop a horrendous headache that at first I thought was caused by too much nicotine.. until I discovered that just a couple of drags from a cigarette made it disappear instantly. Hmm...
I originally smoked two packs a day of Pall Mall Light 100s. Or if I had extra money, three to four packs a day of Marlboro Light 100s.
What confuses me is that my brother consistently smoked three or four packs of full flavor cigs a day... in some cases, unfiltered rollies.. and yet he is satisfied on 24mg and gets a buzz from 36mg.. in fact, it sends him to the bathroom with the squirts from time to time. Hmm...
I've tried using the exact same device, exact same liquid, exact same method of inhaling... no joy.
I'm clueless as to how this could be, but did manage to completely cut out the cigarettes as soon as I got my hands on some snus.
Note that straight-up nicotine has never done the trick for me. Two 21mg patches + 4mg gum leaves me feeling slightly ill but still not "right". And it's not the hand to mouth, either. I never missed the habit a bit when I switched to snus.
--K
Oh, and a few times I felt okay after flooding my atty and getting a mouthful of juice.
Otherwise, I was useless at work (terrible concentration/focus issues) unless I had a cigarette every now and then. And I'd develop a horrendous headache that at first I thought was caused by too much nicotine.. until I discovered that just a couple of drags from a cigarette made it disappear instantly. Hmm...
I originally smoked two packs a day of Pall Mall Light 100s. Or if I had extra money, three to four packs a day of Marlboro Light 100s.
What confuses me is that my brother consistently smoked three or four packs of full flavor cigs a day... in some cases, unfiltered rollies.. and yet he is satisfied on 24mg and gets a buzz from 36mg.. in fact, it sends him to the bathroom with the squirts from time to time. Hmm...
I've tried using the exact same device, exact same liquid, exact same method of inhaling... no joy.
I'm clueless as to how this could be, but did manage to completely cut out the cigarettes as soon as I got my hands on some snus.
Note that straight-up nicotine has never done the trick for me. Two 21mg patches + 4mg gum leaves me feeling slightly ill but still not "right". And it's not the hand to mouth, either. I never missed the habit a bit when I switched to snus.
--K
Really interesting post, and I've had much the same experiences, and the mechanics of it is a mystery to me. You can rest assured that you're not alone.
I could never quit using e-cigs, not even close. I could vap for an hour straight and I still needed a cig. Started using snus and all was well. It gave me the nicotine satisfaction I needed, and the whole oral fixation thing just fell away. Very much a secondary issue for me.
I'm not going to question the validity of those that can quit with e-cigs. I believe it, more power to you. I'm just happy I found a good source of my beloved nicotine from a clean high quality source. If someone figures out whats going on clue the rest of us in please.
What works for one person obviously doesn't work for everyone. I know I was very frustrated when I'd read post after post about people saying they quit smoking the day they got their e-cig and never had any problems. For me, it wasn't anywhere near that simple. I felt horrible and I had withdrawal. But I found that I could tolerate it because I had an ecig. The hand-to-mouth thing was very important to me.
For you, it may be all about the nicotine and perhaps you just don't absorb enough from vaping to satisfy you. What you say about vaping for an hour and still need an analog, that's how I was when I'd tried the lozenges. They could keep me relatively satisifed until the minute it was gone and then I was in need of a smoke.
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Amen to that. I had some nic withdrawal, but it was made better by the physical action that is very close to smoking. It probably helps that I was smoking ultra light analogs.
I knew I wanted to quit, what from the nasty coughing, the smell, the other physical side effects I was having. Even if vaping doesn't provide as much nicotine, it is providing some, and the physical action of taking a drag and blowing out(something that looks like) smoke carries me the rest of the way.
The nice thing about this day and age is that even if e-cigs don't work for you, there's other options.
Wow, I like this thread. A very good mix and conversation on the addiction of nicotine and replacing smoking with vaping. I hope this gets stickied as I think it would be a good (though long) read for those interested in E-Cigs and what to expect. Especially in regards to their mindset concerning analogs.
I had become a hesitant smoker. I did not care for the effects of smoking, I enjoyed smoking, I recognized I was an addict to nicotine and I did not want to neither smoke nor quit.
I averaged a pack a day smoking newports. If I was busy working or riding my bike with non smokers. I had no issues not smoking for long periods of time. If I was at home bored or with smokers, I would smoke more. I would estimate my smoking actually consisted of a sway from half a pack to a pack and a half.
During the switch to E-Cigs I vaped some 36mg and somewhat overdosed. I did notice I had some habit issues which would take a bit of will power to change. Primarily being I had nothing telling me to stop vaping. A cigarette has a definitive end to it. So without something else to do, I would chain vape until I had to do something. This was part of the over dosing lol. That E-Cig kit blew up and I had a week of regular smoking and contemplation on the differences between smoking and vaping. I was definitely getting nicotine in my system.
I got a 510 next. I stuck with 18mg juice. But that has since been somewhat modified. Some mornings I drop a drop of 36mg juice to start the day. Its the only time I need something that potent. Get that nic level back up in the blood! Now for the fun part. I am fine vaping 18mg juice, but if I bump it up to 24mg I do a LOT less chain vaping.
One odd side note. I am sure there must be more addictive substances in analogs, as when ever I am drunk, I feel the need to take a puff off an analog. I am also going to reference my buddy who quit with chantix, yet still smokes when he is drunk. Chantix works by blocking nicotine receptors according to its advertising.
So I am certain we are getting nicotine. Though the amount delivered to the blood stream is being questioned. Is this difference due to different E-Cigs? Is this difference psychological? Does one's mindset towards smoking before the swap out to E-Cigs have bearing on a partial placebo effect? It does seem as though more die hard smokers vap more. My buddy Jared, pack a day smoker, vaped like crazy. We both vaped 510's with juice from the same supplier. To me, my experiences supports the fact that more addictive personality types may or may not enjoy the nicotine "high" from E-Cig's based more upon their mindset than an actual level of nicotine. If you really want to be smoking cigarettes, and are just trying to be healthy or save a buck, may not find E-Cigs to be as satisfying.
If my mind is just playing placebo effect tricks on, fine by me. Though my opinion is you are playing a mind trick on yourself in believing that nicotine has that great of an effect on your personality. You are who you are. When you quit nicotine completely, sure you will be irritable as any other junkie without their fix. But as time goes on and your body and mind get used to no nicotine, you will return to who you are. You do not need nicotine to suck it up and be nice to someone, you will be able to do that all by yourself without nicotine (though none of us really want to).
As labeled and as I believe the measuring stick for e-juice is mg/ml. Meaning a 10ml bottle of 36mg/ml or 360mg of nicotine in the bottle. I do believe if you take into account absorption rates for smoking vs vaping, the amount of nicotine in the cigarette vs juice and the amount smoked vs vaped. My experience is 24mg labeled e-juice most closely resembles a cigarette (newport strength as previously mentioned). I vape for 5 to 10 minutes per hour. More dilute nicotine mixture, I vape more often. The less dilute 36mg is the morning kickstart. The accuracy of this is up to manufacturer honesty!
I had become a hesitant smoker. I did not care for the effects of smoking, I enjoyed smoking, I recognized I was an addict to nicotine and I did not want to neither smoke nor quit.
I averaged a pack a day smoking newports. If I was busy working or riding my bike with non smokers. I had no issues not smoking for long periods of time. If I was at home bored or with smokers, I would smoke more. I would estimate my smoking actually consisted of a sway from half a pack to a pack and a half.
During the switch to E-Cigs I vaped some 36mg and somewhat overdosed. I did notice I had some habit issues which would take a bit of will power to change. Primarily being I had nothing telling me to stop vaping. A cigarette has a definitive end to it. So without something else to do, I would chain vape until I had to do something. This was part of the over dosing lol. That E-Cig kit blew up and I had a week of regular smoking and contemplation on the differences between smoking and vaping. I was definitely getting nicotine in my system.
I got a 510 next. I stuck with 18mg juice. But that has since been somewhat modified. Some mornings I drop a drop of 36mg juice to start the day. Its the only time I need something that potent. Get that nic level back up in the blood! Now for the fun part. I am fine vaping 18mg juice, but if I bump it up to 24mg I do a LOT less chain vaping.
One odd side note. I am sure there must be more addictive substances in analogs, as when ever I am drunk, I feel the need to take a puff off an analog. I am also going to reference my buddy who quit with chantix, yet still smokes when he is drunk. Chantix works by blocking nicotine receptors according to its advertising.
So I am certain we are getting nicotine. Though the amount delivered to the blood stream is being questioned. Is this difference due to different E-Cigs? Is this difference psychological? Does one's mindset towards smoking before the swap out to E-Cigs have bearing on a partial placebo effect? It does seem as though more die hard smokers vap more. My buddy Jared, pack a day smoker, vaped like crazy. We both vaped 510's with juice from the same supplier. To me, my experiences supports the fact that more addictive personality types may or may not enjoy the nicotine "high" from E-Cig's based more upon their mindset than an actual level of nicotine. If you really want to be smoking cigarettes, and are just trying to be healthy or save a buck, may not find E-Cigs to be as satisfying.
If my mind is just playing placebo effect tricks on, fine by me. Though my opinion is you are playing a mind trick on yourself in believing that nicotine has that great of an effect on your personality. You are who you are. When you quit nicotine completely, sure you will be irritable as any other junkie without their fix. But as time goes on and your body and mind get used to no nicotine, you will return to who you are. You do not need nicotine to suck it up and be nice to someone, you will be able to do that all by yourself without nicotine (though none of us really want to).
As labeled and as I believe the measuring stick for e-juice is mg/ml. Meaning a 10ml bottle of 36mg/ml or 360mg of nicotine in the bottle. I do believe if you take into account absorption rates for smoking vs vaping, the amount of nicotine in the cigarette vs juice and the amount smoked vs vaped. My experience is 24mg labeled e-juice most closely resembles a cigarette (newport strength as previously mentioned). I vape for 5 to 10 minutes per hour. More dilute nicotine mixture, I vape more often. The less dilute 36mg is the morning kickstart. The accuracy of this is up to manufacturer honesty!
If i puff on it too much too often I start getting lightheaded. My mouth becomes a desert. I feel like I inhaled a cigar. In other words I get the same reacton from too much nicotine in an e-cig that I do from overusing tobacco. No chance that it's a placebo.
This duo I puff on has got to be a high volt output because a 4mg or 6mg cart makes me feel like I am smoking but about 3 hits off an 8mg or 12mg and my head is swimming.
This duo I puff on has got to be a high volt output because a 4mg or 6mg cart makes me feel like I am smoking but about 3 hits off an 8mg or 12mg and my head is swimming.
Since my name has come up a few times in this thread, a quick summary of what I've discovered might be useful.
Nicotine delivery: Actually, e-cigs are more efficient than analogs in delivering nicotine. How so? An analog might contain around a gram of tobacco at 1% nicotine. Of the ~10 mg of nicotine present in a full flavor analog, only 1 mg typically gets absorbed, that's 10%. With e-liquid, both my testing (vaping into a cryogenic trap) and empirical evidence (polling vapers on their former analog habits vs their current vaping habits), the percentage is much greater, approximately 40%.
I've put up a blog post about my experience with e-liquid strength and quantity versus former analog consumption. What I've found in my own case, and in a surprising majority of vapers I've talked to is that when we "find our own level" for e-liquid, that is the combination of mg and mL vaped per day, the total mg of nicotine used per day is awfully close to 2.5X the nicotine we used to get from analogs. Example, a vaper used to smoke 30 full flavor (1mg) analogs down to the ..... Analogs provided 30 mg/day of nicotine. The total mg of nicotine vaped per day would need to be 2.5X greater, or 75 mg. This could be gotten from ~4 mL of 18 mg, ~3 mL of 24 mg, or ~2 mL of 36 mg. This empirical 40% lines up well with the trapping test which demonstrated that approximately 40% of the nicotine vaped ended up being found in the trap. You might do the math yourself for your former analog habit vs your current vaping habit. I expect many of you will be surprised.
All that aside, one thing is certain: The oft quoted "only 10% of the vaped nicotine gets absorbed" figure is plain wrong. E-cigs are not placebos.
Nicotine delivery: Actually, e-cigs are more efficient than analogs in delivering nicotine. How so? An analog might contain around a gram of tobacco at 1% nicotine. Of the ~10 mg of nicotine present in a full flavor analog, only 1 mg typically gets absorbed, that's 10%. With e-liquid, both my testing (vaping into a cryogenic trap) and empirical evidence (polling vapers on their former analog habits vs their current vaping habits), the percentage is much greater, approximately 40%.
I've put up a blog post about my experience with e-liquid strength and quantity versus former analog consumption. What I've found in my own case, and in a surprising majority of vapers I've talked to is that when we "find our own level" for e-liquid, that is the combination of mg and mL vaped per day, the total mg of nicotine used per day is awfully close to 2.5X the nicotine we used to get from analogs. Example, a vaper used to smoke 30 full flavor (1mg) analogs down to the ..... Analogs provided 30 mg/day of nicotine. The total mg of nicotine vaped per day would need to be 2.5X greater, or 75 mg. This could be gotten from ~4 mL of 18 mg, ~3 mL of 24 mg, or ~2 mL of 36 mg. This empirical 40% lines up well with the trapping test which demonstrated that approximately 40% of the nicotine vaped ended up being found in the trap. You might do the math yourself for your former analog habit vs your current vaping habit. I expect many of you will be surprised.
All that aside, one thing is certain: The oft quoted "only 10% of the vaped nicotine gets absorbed" figure is plain wrong. E-cigs are not placebos.
Thanks, Dvap. I've been following your posts, but still wasn't quite clear. This sums it better for me. I also fall in line with your findings. The more of your posts I read the more confused I became. It makes sense, now. Thanks for all your work and bringing it down to a level I can understand.
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