The end of microcoils?

[LouisLeBeau]

Well, I listened to it. Relevant discussion as the OP states doesn't start until the 43 min mark. There is a Q&A afterwards. Nowhere in there does any Pedro make a statement. Nowhere is there any statements attributed to any Pedro. Much ado about nothing. The only thing I can glean from it all, and I'm no PhD, is that it is grossly irresponsible for someone who DOES have a PhD to condemn anyone or anything without at least the most basic of research before they make a statement. Wouldn't you agree, Dr.?

 

[Dzaw]

Lots of things happen when metal gets hot.

None of them include weakening of molecular bonds. Metals don't have molecular bonds. There are atomic lattices in which various complimentary metals are suspended or substituted.

When you heat metal until it glows, it undergoes a series of predictable phase shifts. It also becomes more permeable to oxygen, so it will begin to form a skin of oxidation. The chance exists that some of the elements suspended interstitially may escape. However, that will only be happening WHILE the metal is hot - hot enough to be glowing.

At vaping temps, none of this is happening. So long as you're not actively inhaling the product of a glowing coil, then materially it would be extraordinarily difficult for anything to be released in to your vapor.

Dr. F may be a legit research scientist, but it's very clear from reading what he's had to say on this topic so far that his grasp of material science, and specifically metallurgy is barely better than that of the average lay person. He really should consult with a qualified materials scientist before making his statements based on assumptions that are erroneous at best.

 

[Alien Traveler]

So Cr(VI) can't form on Kanthal or NiChrome heating Elements at Normal Operating Temperature? Or should I say, when they are at coil "Dry Burn" Temperatures.

They should not. Since I am not an organic chemist, I have no idea what happens when coils are heating juice (can some flavorings react with coil? Hope not. They should be safe for using with stainless steel cookware).

 

[zoiDman]

They should not. Since I am not an organic chemist, I have no idea what happens when coils are heating juice (can some flavorings react with coil? Hope not. They should be safe for using with stainless steel cookware).

OK...?

BTW - It is Funny that you Mentioned SS Cookware. Because I was Reading a Study on SS Toxicity when I got an e-Mail Alert for your Post.

LOL


"In conclusion, the studies on the release of chromium and nickel from kitchenware
made of stainless steel provide inconsistent results. In some studies, the chromium or
nickel concentration in foods has increased when acidic food was prepared in new
stainless steel pans and bowls, whereas no remarkable increase was observed in other
studies. However, the measured releases have been very low when compared to the
normal intake of chromium and nickel from food.

..."
http://www.ttl.fi/en/publications/Electronic_publications/Documents/Stainless_steel.pdf

 

[Magaro]

Well, I listened to it. Relevant discussion as the OP states doesn't start until the 43 min mark. There is a Q&A afterwards. Nowhere in there does any Pedro make a statement. Nowhere is there any statements attributed to any Pedro. Much ado about nothing. The only thing I can glean from it all, and I'm no PhD, is that it is grossly irresponsible for someone who DOES have a PhD to condemn anyone or anything without at least the most basic of research before they make a statement. Wouldn't you agree, Dr.?

Could you please explain what you are talking about? What does any of this have to do with the original Dr. F audio? Did you read Dr. Farsalinos' post on his web page where he credits "Pedro" as being a materials science expert he consulted with? Who supported his "dubious" claims about the molecular destruction of coil alloys by dry burning?

And let's not mention "Pedro's" cautionary alert about Cr(IV)...

Please come up to speed about this discussion before contributing irrelevant inflammatory comments.

Thanks.

 

[Magaro]

OK...?

BTW - It is Funny that you Mentioned SS Cookware. Because I was Reading a Study on SS Toxicity when I got an e-Mail Alert for your Post.

LOL


"In conclusion, the studies on the release of chromium and nickel from kitchenware
made of stainless steel provide inconsistent results. In some studies, the chromium or
nickel concentration in foods has increased when acidic food was prepared in new
stainless steel pans and bowls, whereas no remarkable increase was observed in other
studies. However, the measured releases have been very low when compared to the
normal intake of chromium and nickel from food.

..."
http://www.ttl.fi/en/publications/Electronic_publications/Documents/Stainless_steel.pdf

My favorite quote:
"No further toxicity studies of stainless steel are proposed. The main hazards of stainless steels are related to some uses of the material, especially welding."

Stainless steel, a chromium oxide former, is so benign that no further studies are proposed. Kanthal, an alumina former, which is biologically inert, becomes a subject of concern because of the opinion of a cardiologist with no expertise in materials science.

Heading to the lair to vape on my dry burned Kanthal coils.

 

[Ryedan]

Even though a lot of this is way over my head I am constantly drawn to this thread for new info. I respect Dr F. and everything he does and appreciate the informed discussion going on here.

Have to say that getting dual coils, even perfectly built, to heat evenly is impossible without dry burning and tweaking.

This is only an issue for contact coils. I've been using non-contact dual and triple coils for over a month and I'm at the point now where I would be comfortable not heating them dry to check for hot spots.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Exactly. And still it is written in his blog thet metals have "molecular structure", which is complete nonsense. It is very basic piece of knowledge that is learned in the very beginning by metallurgists, chemists, etc. It means that not Dr.F nor Pedro Carvalho know metallurgy or chemistry. That's the problem.

Sigh... "his" being Dr. F. There are 16 instances of "we" in that blog post but not a single actual thought of Pedro's. Clearly, at the beginning of the post, Dr. F. is distressed by the backlash he has created. Dr. F's credentials to make a stand on this subject have been called into questions. Grasping for straws to maintain his status on an authority on vaping, he reaches out to someone well known who DOES have some credentials and has done some research on the topic.

Funny thing is, Pedro is very active on his forum. Safety issues are only second in his frequency of posts to fundraising, charity, and just plain Great Guy posts. However, not in the past, nor in the present, is there ANY post by Pedro regarding torching or dry burning of coils. Wick material choices? Oui. Juice content concerns? Oui. (he vapes only plain menthol to avoid things like diacetyls). A myriad of safety issues. Notably missing though, is anything about dry burning of Kanthal, or torching of coils. He's a passionate guy. IF he had concerns about Kanthal and the creation of HC, it would be there, I assure you. I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but it doesn't appear to be dead yet. I'm not even going to bother Pedro about this. I'd like to see a statement from Dr. F. about Pedro's belief that torching or dry burning kanthal might produce HC. He's the ONLY one who has made that statement thus far.

 

[Alien Traveler]

This is only an issue for contact coils. I've been using non-contact dual and triple coils for over a month and I'm at the point now where I would be comfortable not heating them dry to check for hot spots.

Even without need to find hot spots I still dry burn my coils for cleaning. Most effective cleaning.

 

[tw33k]

Looks like nobody has read Dr Fs latest report on this issue. I posted it a few pages back The end of microcoils? | Page 22 | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[druckle]

Sigh... "his" being Dr. F. There are 16 instances of "we" in that blog post but not a single actual thought of Pedro's. Clearly, at the beginning of the post, Dr. F. is distressed by the backlash he has created. Dr. F's credentials to make a stand on this subject have been called into questions. Grasping for straws to maintain his status on an authority on vaping, he reaches out to someone well known who DOES have some credentials and has done some research on the topic.

Funny thing is, Pedro is very active on his forum. Safety issues are only second in his frequency of posts to fundraising, charity, and just plain Great Guy posts. However, not in the past, nor in the present, is there ANY post by Pedro regarding torching or dry burning of coils. Wick material choices? Oui. Juice content concerns? Oui. (he vapes only plain menthol to avoid things like diacetyls). A myriad of safety issues. Notably missing though, is anything about dry burning of Kanthal, or torching of coils. He's a passionate guy. IF he had concerns about Kanthal and the creation of HC, it would be there, I assure you. I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but it doesn't appear to be dead yet. I'm not even going to bother Pedro about this. I'd like to see a statement from Dr. F. about Pedro's belief that torching or dry burning kanthal might produce HC. He's the ONLY one who has made that statement thus far.

I mentioned earlier that Farsalino cited Pedro as the authority for Farsalino's statements. As you suggest it's quite possible that Farsalino was in CYA mode and Pedro never said any such thing. We don't know but Farsalino has been contacted to ask about his citation of Pedro as his authority. We do not know how Farsalino will answer. Perhaps he will answer.

 

[Magaro]

Sigh... "his" being Dr. F. There are 16 instances of "we" in that blog post but not a single actual thought of Pedro's. Clearly, at the beginning of the post, Dr. F. is distressed by the backlash he has created. Dr. F's credentials to make a stand on this subject have been called into questions. Grasping for straws to maintain his status on an authority on vaping, he reaches out to someone well known who DOES have some credentials and has done some research on the topic.

Funny thing is, Pedro is very active on his forum. Safety issues are only second in his frequency of posts to fundraising, charity, and just plain Great Guy posts. However, not in the past, nor in the present, is there ANY post by Pedro regarding torching or dry burning of coils. Wick material choices? Oui. Juice content concerns? Oui. (he vapes only plain menthol to avoid things like diacetyls). A myriad of safety issues. Notably missing though, is anything about dry burning of Kanthal, or torching of coils. He's a passionate guy. IF he had concerns about Kanthal and the creation of HC, it would be there, I assure you. I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but it doesn't appear to be dead yet. I'm not even going to bother Pedro about this. I'd like to see a statement from Dr. F. about Pedro's belief that torching or dry burning kanthal might produce HC. He's the ONLY one who has made that statement thus far.

If Pedro is NOT supportive of Dr. F's inflammatory statements about the dangers of dry burning coils, and the molecular degradation of the metal, and the generation of Cr(VI) from coils during vaping, then I would have to say that Dr. F. has overstated his "support" and that I, personally, apologize to him for any distress this thread may have caused him, and that Dr. F. owes the vaping community an explanation for this entire fiasco.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Looks like nobody has read Dr Fs latest report on this issue. I posted it a few pages back The end of microcoils? | Page 22 | E-Cigarette Forum

Sorry, it is not "latest".

 

[LouisLeBeau]

"Credentials" are everything in the scientific community. Most professionals confine their scientific opinions to subjects in which they have scientific expertise. I personally have the integrity to refrain from expressing opinions about health issues, because I am a lowly PhD Metallurgical Engineer who has been working in this field for 3 decades. I expect the same courtesy (out of respect for society) from those educated/skilled in other fields. If Pedro has significant education/experience in the field of metallurgy and their behavior in high temperature applications, I simply wish to know this and have a civil discussion with him about this inflammatory subject.

Yes they are. I am only a lowly shopkeeper, but I did once employ a gent with a PhD in Psychology. He was a great sweeper. Prima Donna journeymen wouldn't usually move out of their workspace for the sweeper, but this guy knew how to manipulate them.

 

[Magaro]

Looks like nobody has read Dr Fs latest report on this issue. I posted it a few pages back The end of microcoils? | Page 22 | E-Cigarette Forum

The internet. Moving at the speed of light.

 

[Magaro]

Yes they are. I am only a lowly shopkeeper, but I did once employ a gent with a PhD in Psychology. He was a great sweeper. Prima Donna journeymen wouldn't usually move out of their workspace for the sweeper, but this guy knew how to manipulate them.

Way to keep this discussion on a professional level.

 

[Dzaw]

This is only an issue for contact coils. I've been using non-contact dual and triple coils for over a month and I'm at the point now where I would be comfortable not heating them dry to check for hot spots.

This isn't even an issue for contact coils. Yes, to make them work right, you have to dry burn them. It's not going to be a big deal.

When people start talking about heat and metal, they generally (some present company excepted) have no conception of the temperature ranges involved. I was once amused by a remark a friend of mine made. I was putting together my materials list for a set of molten salt baths for heat treating steel, and discussing the process with a friend. In describing the high and low temp baths, and how they differ, my friend shook his head and said "You're the only guy I know who can say 'low temp' with a straight face and still mean 450 degrees".

We're scorching wicks, and burning juice, and generally producing a really nasty, terrible vape at a mere 600 degrees F.

To release Chromium or Aluminum from the iron matrix in Kanthal requires temperatures approaching three times that. It's just not happening at the kinds of temps we vape at. At our 'in use' temperatures the metals in question are securely locked in a tight prison of iron that just isn't budging at these low temps.

When we dry burn, the wire can get truly hot. Maybe - just maybe hot enough to let some chrome or aluminum out (although they'd much rather stay put and grab some oxygen, given half the chance). That would be a momentary emission, gone in a tiny, invisible puff of smoke, not hanging around with evil plans to infect your next vape.

I appreciate all the good doc tries to do for our community. He really has the best interests of vapers at heart. I'll happily eat crow if I'm mistaken, but everything I've learned about how iron alloys like to behave leads me to believe he's barking up the wrong tree with this one.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

If Pedro is NOT supportive of Dr. F's inflammatory statements about the dangers of dry burning coils, and the molecular degradation of the metal, and the generation of Cr(VI) from coils during vaping, then I would have to say that Dr. F. has overstated his "support" and that I, personally, apologize to him for any distress this thread may have caused him, and that Dr. F. owes the vaping community an explanation for this entire fiasco.

It's cool Magaro. I'd like to see Farsalinos come clean as much as you. Pedro won't take any stand but to express support for Dr. F's contributions towards vaping safety. It's who he is. If you knew him, you would understand. That avatar picture I have? It was a gift from Pedro. Along with a handmade leather wallet to hold the mod and batteries. It was worth thousands at the time he sent it to me. Only because we're both wine lovers, and vape lovers, and appreciate well made things. And connect on some other levels. I can't tell you enough good things about him. As I said previously, he will err on the side of caution for the vaping community. Dry burning an atty, even without a bridge, is still in the presence of the S.S. canister that contains it. Might he advise against it? Possibly. But he has not stated that. But as I said, if he had a concern regarding dry burning Kanthal or torching it to a microcoil, I'd be able to find it. It's just not there. I'm really kind of disappointed in Dr. F. Might Pedro come out in support of Dr. F? It could happen, and it wouldn't be because he believes in that particular issue, but he believes in the bigger picture of common good. Just that kind of guy. It's why I am so vehement in my support of him.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Way to keep this discussion on a professional level.

Aw C'mon. True story, but just a jab. If you didn't have it coming, my apologies.

 

[Ryedan]

Even without need to find hot spots I still dry burn my coils for cleaning. Most effective cleaning.

So do I AT and I also dry burn gently before I put in the wicks. I was just responding to mechhunter's concern about not being able to get dual contact coils to work properly if you can't dry burn.