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The end of microcoils?

Discussion in 'General Vaping Discussion' started by cool52, May 25, 2015.

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  1. cool52

    cool52 Full Member

    Apr 25, 2014
    According Farsalinos the most disastrous thing we do in vape is burn the coil to clean it or put together the kantal turns, like when we do it in a microcoil because destroy the molecular estructure and release metals to vape.

    You can listen that in this link at 44.34 minutes :

    Its a big surprise....
    • Like Like x 7
  2. yuseffuhler

    yuseffuhler Ultra Member

    Mar 28, 2015
    Houghton, MI
    Any idea of where I can find a transcript of this? If not, it's all good. I'm just a bit more comfortable with reading than listening to it.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. kaper

    kaper Full Member

    Apr 15, 2015
    Intersting, thanks for posting.
    Never thought about dangers of dry burning.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Jimi D.

    Jimi D. ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Oct 26, 2010
    Florida Keys
    This doesn't surprise me. I never was a dry burner. I've always just replaced my wick and coil.
    • Like Like x 5
  5. oplholik

    oplholik ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I always dry burn my coils to clean, maybe I should change my habits. I now wonder about pulsing a new coil to oxidize it. I haven't watched the video yet, so maybe that's covered in there also.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Margate69

    Margate69 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I always pulse my new builds to check for hot spots, ensure even burn, and make sure it doesn't blow out.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Underwhelmed

    Underwhelmed Account closed on request ECF Veteran

    May 22, 2012
    He's saying anytime you get the coil wire hot enough to glow it is bad, even if it's just once, even if it's wire you just cut off a roll, even if it's just to adjust your coil.
    • Like Like x 2
  8. ReigntheGamer

    ReigntheGamer Account closed on request ECF Veteran

    Oct 14, 2014
    So what will be the process to get rid of hot legs now? Just que the coil, wick it and hope for the best?
    • Like Like x 5
  9. jambi

    jambi Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 20, 2014
    Alright, so assuming I just build a new coil every time it gets dirty, any suggestions on...

    a) how to check for inevitable hot spots / make adjustments without applying heat
    b) how to build a perfect coil every time that doesn't require above

    ...would be appreciated.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. marc42

    marc42 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 31, 2014
    United Kingdom
    Reading the kanthal data sheet the alloy needs to be heated to 1000 C + in order to form a protective insulating layer [alumina ] that RESISTS the diffusion of gases as well as metal ions.

    When i clean my coil i heat till red quench in water, give it a scrub and then reheat and let cool slowly.
    the resulting coil has the grey alumina coating described in the kanthal data sheet.
    This sugests to me that the above process may well be a good thing as far as kanthal is concerned.

    here is the pdf : [page 15 mentions oxidation]
    Resistance heating wire and resistance wire — Kanthal

    If you consider that this material is used in heating elements for domestic use too.

    Make of it what you will

    I would also like to add many thanks to Dr Farsalinos for his research into all things vaping.
    • Like Like x 8
  11. beckdg

    beckdg ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 1, 2013

    spelled... annealed
    Pronounced... danger?

    • Like Like x 1
  12. super_X_drifter

    super_X_drifter ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2012
    Somewhere out there
    Interesting. I pulse to remove hot legs.
    I don't understand how anyone can remove a hot leg or even check for them without pulsing. Wouldn't vaping a build with hot legs be worse - since they glow even after you wick?

    Dunno but I Guess I better throw away my toaster (or at least the toast) while I'm at it.
    • Like Like x 17
  13. TaketheRedPill

    TaketheRedPill Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 27, 2009
    Southern California
    here's a transcript from the timestamp until almost the end. The ending has to do with Dutch changing classification of eliquid from class one, hazard, to class three 'toxic' and Dr. F. believes it's mostly a propaganda ploy for political purposes but I was tired, so I skipped it. But here it is from the timestamp:

    Q: regarding the use of new metals - new breed of coil turning up made of titanium? - Dr F: Titanium is probably one of the safest options because you avoid nickel and chrome which are not really good, but, ah, there is a potential issue with the development of titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide may be developed and cover the metal coil during the first few activations of heating cycles but we're not sure if this is emitted to the air. Because that's what's important. The important thing is whether you're seeing titanium dioxide coming into the vapor. Also for the other metals, the important thing is whether chrome from the coil goes to the vapor or whether nickel from the coil goes to the vapor, and I suspect they are. Once again, I want to suggest and advise everyone not only the simple vapers but also the people who are doing the reviews of these cigarettes. Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. Just in order to fix it, to tighten the wraps, to make them, whatever, to see if the heat transfer is homogenous between the coil wraps. It's the most disasterous things you are doing. Because when you are heating the metal to the point that it's getting, where it's glowing red you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules and then you are greatly facilitating the emission of metals from the coil into the vapor. It's the worst thing that you can do. And I've see every single reviewer doing the same thing over and over and over again. You are destroying the metal structure. Period. Just by doing it once you are destroying the metal structure. You shouldn't do it. If you want to clean the coils because there maybe there some oil from the production process and so on, go use water, alcohol, before even, before preparing the coil itself, Just when you're taking it, when you're cutting it from the roll. Just use water or any alcohol. I would even say acetone you can use it and of course clean it with water, but don't overheat it to the point where it's glowing red. It's the worst thing that you are doing. You're completely destroying the metal structure.

    Q: Isn't Kanthal good up to 1500degrees before it starts to go a bit funny ? Dr. F: Before it starts melting? You don't have to melt it to destroy it. It happens a lot earlier...(Dryburning) may be convenient way to make the coil better ,but you're destroying the structure of the metal - there's no doubt about it.

    Q: question about Organic liquids?: Dr. F: "In my opinion someone needs to be concerned about something in relation to flavors. The first thing you should be worried about is organic flavors and organic extracts. There's a simple reason. Many people think that organic extracts are natural products so they're much better. Well they're much better to eat them but they're not at all better to inhale them. Because all these extracts have been made to be ingested and the extracts contain a lot of other chemicals besides the flavoring molecules that you are also inhaling. Perhaps they may nutritious or good to ingest them. But, for example, when you have a lot of proteins coming out from a plant where you create a natural extract it's not a very good idea to inhale proteins, long chain amino acids and so on. It's not a good thing. And I think that if we want to, if we're about to worry about some of the flavorings the first thing we want to look at is organic flavorings. I'm not saying they're all bad, I'm saying it's an issue of concern. It's something that they said, that they have said, two years ago, it's not something new. We don't have data, we cannot say don't use them, we cannot recommend anything based on evidence but we have reason to think that not all of them but perhaps some of them may be problematic.

    Q: Nickel coils? Dr. F: Nickel is a well known toxic chemical, toxic metal, like chrome is nickel, like chrome is in kanthal. The thing is whether any nickel emitted to the aerosol from the coil and it seems from the studies published up to now that some is emitted but there are no studies evaluating nickel coils by themselves. So We don't know. Because the thing it's not what the coil is made of, the thing is if you're getting anything in the aerosol from the coil. Otherwise, If it stays on the coil it doesn't matter.... In any case, the coils, as I have said probably one and one half years ago, is one of the big unknowns. But it's a pity. Because we could study and we could find what is the best coil or two or three options and we could choose. And it would be easy for the industry to follow and it would be cost effective and it wouldn't cost anything basically because going from one coil to the other doesn't make a difference in price. But...

    Q what about ceramic discs?: Dr F: It might probably be better because at least you are covering the coil and you don't have a direct contact between the liquid and the metal. You know the metal also acts as a catalyst and actually aids in oxidation of the liquids and the components. But I think that there was some issues with the low rate of temperature elevation. You need a lot more time to heat the liquid and evaporate it, because of course you ceramic acts as an insulator, so I think that's why they weren't used on a broad basis.

    Q: what about lungs absorbing vitamins from eliquid? Dr. F: We don't know if they (the lungs) are or not, but that means we don't know if they can absorb or not. But I think they are not made to absorb vitamins or anything like that. And moreover, I don't see a reason for anyone to take vitamins unless they have a specific vitamin deficiency. I think the food supplement industry is worse-regulated than the non-regulated cigarette industry. There some major issues there and I don't see a point in inhaling more and more stuff whether it's vitamins or whatever stuff they think, and it's still unproven whether you're getting anything. (Caffeine) is a stimulant, it's not a vitamin, it's something different, and still we don't know how caffeine is absorbed. I know there is some other inhaler stuff containing caffeine and we still don't know how much is absorbed.

    Q: PG safety study of 1947? Dr. F: They evaluated in primates, in monkeys, I think, for 18 months, the effects of breathing air fully saturated with PG and they found no adverse effects.

    Q: Opinion on Additives?; Dr. F: Let's not forget that the e-cigarette is used as a smoking substitute. Now I don't see a reason why we should start adding things which basically don't have any effect as a smoking substitute. And I don't recommend making the eliquids more complicated than they are. There's no reason. I don't think that by adding a vitamin it will be better to get you off smoking. Will it? I suppose not.

    Q: Large proportion (60%) who use ecigarettes go back to cigs after 3 months - is this a trend? Dr. F: Unfortunately for the majority of people ecigarettes don't work. For smokers I mean. It would be interesting to understand the reasons why they don't work. What kind of devices are they using? Are they willing to use any new generation devices? It's a matter of the efficiency of the devices. We know that not all devices are equally effective. And of course, we know, that cigalikes don't really work. Moreover, the smokers need to understand they may have to try different type of liquids or even a different device before they find some thing that fits their own preference. So if the smoker is not educated basically and he thinks that the ecigarette is another type of tobacco cigarette, get a pack, get a light and that's it, of course you will be disappointed. So they need to be educated. The ecigarette unfortunately is much more complicated than the tobacco cigarette. So, without being educated to know what to expect and to know how you should approach the product, most likely it will fail... There are many people who are using cigalikes who don't even know there are other devices out there. They don't search on the internet they don't care to search on the internet, they just go to the store or the supermarket and get what is there....

    Q. About diacytl in liquids? Dr. F: My advice is that people should know, so that people who don't want to inhale diactyl, they should know what liquid contains diactyl. So let the consumer decide for himself. It is very very irresponsible behavior to have the manufacturer decide for you what you're going to vape and to trick you because diactyl has better taste than the substitutes. That's very interesting. But you should mention that there is diactyl, and then we're going to see how many are going to vape it. If someone wants to vape it knowing there is diactyl inside, let him do it, I don't mind at all. But what about me, who don't want for example to vape diactyl, why shouldn't I know? So, if you want to put diactyl in your liquid, ok, as a manufacturer, mention it, so I can have the right to choose. It's simple.

    • Like Like x 25
  14. Underwhelmed

    Underwhelmed Account closed on request ECF Veteran

    May 22, 2012
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Sgt.Rock

    Sgt.Rock Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 13, 2014
    The Poconos
    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and try to apply what seems to me to be logic to this...

    When you dry burn, don't inhale the gasses

    When you vape, keep the coil wet and no gasses should be generated
    • Like Like x 19
  16. oplholik

    oplholik ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    @Sgt.Rock, you may well be right, and along with having the coil at the gray color as suggested above by marc42, there may not be that much of a problem. Seems good to me at least, hope so at least. Like SX said, how are you going to check for hot legs.
    • Like Like x 2
  17. marc42

    marc42 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 31, 2014
    United Kingdom
    Plus if you do use titanium wire, don't stress too much over titanium dioxide its not considered harmful.
    when you consider the airborn pollutants in traffic congested city air..
    Research and gaining greater more accurate knowledge is a good thing but it is alo good to set it in context with general environment. [no criticism meant here of any researchers who work to a tight brief]
    Comment s about organic flavourings are worth noting too. people have often been misled into thinking natural organic good, 'man made' =bad , not always the case, nature is a warzone fought with chemical weapons.

    Though on balance with current knowledge i think all the above is preferable to habitually inhaling smoke from burning leaves.
    • Like Like x 5
  18. Alien Traveler

    Alien Traveler Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 3, 2014
    United States
    Thanks a lot for a transcript. Even in worst nightmare I would not watch vape-related video for 1+ hour.

    A lot of useful info.

    BUT as a (former) metallurgist I do know about metals and I have to say that all what was said about metals is not worth any attention. It was all wrong. It was even said "you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules", which is just funny for a metallurgist: metals do not have molecules and heating does not destroy bonds. For kanthal heating is very useful thing. You should dry burn your kanthal coils to make them healthier. First, you remove contaminations - no solvent can remove them as good as dry burning. Second, you form good protective layer on a wire.
    Just an example when specialist is trying to discuss things in which he is not a specialist.
    Please, dry burn your kanthal coils. Please, do not overheat them while vaping (including legs).
    • Like Like x 46
  19. Magaro

    Magaro Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 7, 2015
    Corning, NY, USA
    None of the elements in Kanthal A1 have a significant vapor pressure at the temperatures a coil reaches during vaping. The thin aluminum oxide scale that forms on heating is very effective at protecting the coil from further oxidation, ionic diffusion and chemical leaching. Torturing a coil with extended white-hot burns will inevitably consume some of the aluminum and chromium in the alloy, and change the nature of the surface. Don't do it. But lightly oxidizing your Kanthal coil is probably a good idea. It serves to help seal the surface of the coil, trapping and protecting the iron, aluminum and chromium beneath it.

    I, too, appreciate what Dr. Farsalinos has done for the vaping community. But I think he may not have all the facts straight in this case. His mention of "metal molecules" bothers me. Metal alloys are not made up of molecules. They are crystalline arrangements, ordered and/or disordered, of metal atoms. Heating can cause many changes in an alloy's microstructure, but you are not "basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules", because they don't exist.

    Absolutely, research is needed to determine the safest alloys for vape coils and their proper care and feeding. But common sense dictates, at least to me, that a properly oxidized Kanthal coil is probably safer than an unoxidized one.
    • Like Like x 32
  20. oplholik

    oplholik ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    • Like Like x 7
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