What 'Other Measures' are involved if FDA doesn't comply with Senator Johnson?

[Robino1]

Per Oliver: Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Breaking - anyone have any insight as to what "other measures" might exist?

Majority Media | Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee | Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee

If significant, please someone start a separate thread!

I've found information regarding the oversight process.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30240.pdf

Page 27: Legal Tools Available for Oversight and Investigations A review of congressional precedents indicates that there is no single method or set of procedures for engaging in oversight or conducting an investigation.51 Historically, congressional committees appeared to rely a great deal on public hearings and subpoenaed witnesses to garner information and accomplish their investigative goals. In more recent years, congressional committees have seemingly relied more heavily on staff level communication and contacts as well as other “informal” attempts at gathering information – document requests, informal briefings, etc. – before initiating the necessary formalistic procedures such as issuing committee subpoenas, holding on-the-record depositions, and/or engaging the subjects of inquiries in open, public hearings. This section reviews the legal basis for the formal process of issuing subpoenas, depositions, and holding committee hearings. This section also reviews Congress’s authority to grant witnesses limited immunity for the purpose of obtaining information and testimony that may be protected by the Fifth Amendment’s right against self-incrimination.

 

[Robino1]

Also this:

The power of inquiry, with the accompanying process to enforce it, has been deemed “an essential and appropriate auxiliary to the legislative function.”54 A properly authorized subpoena issued by a committee or subcommittee has the same force and effect as a subpoena issued by the parent house itself. Individual committees and subcommittees must be delegated the authority to issue subpoenas. Senate Rule XXVI(1) and House Rule XI(2)(m)(1) presently empower all standing committees and subcommittees to issue subpoenas requiring the attendance and testimony of witnesses and the production of documents. Special or select committees must be specifically delegated that authority by Senate or House resolution. The rules governing issuance of committee subpoenas vary by committee. Some committees require a full committee vote to issue a subpoena while others empower the chairman to issue them unilaterally, or with the concurrence of the ranking minority member.

 

[Robino1]

Oooooh, look what I found in the footnotes!

In the House, the only standing committee authorized to take depositions is the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. See House Rules, Rule X(4)(c)(3)(A). In the Senate, the Committees on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry; Ethics; Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs and its the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations; Indian Affairs; Foreign Relations; Commerce, Science, and Technology;; and the Special Committee on Aging all have deposition authority. See S. Doc. 113-20, AUTHORITY AND RULES OF SENATE COMMITTEES 2013-2014, 113th Cong. (2013).

In Bold, by me, is the one that Senator Johnson belongs to.

 

[Robino1]

Ack, my eyes are becoming numb from reading. I've bookmarked the site and will continue searching later

 

[choochoogranny]

Thank you, Robino. Reading.......and understanding gov. material takes a special kind of talent!

 

[FranC]

Thanks,Robin

 

[zoiDman]

Ack, my eyes are becoming numb from reading. I've bookmarked the site and will continue searching later

I hear you.

I tried an e-Cigarette because I wanted to Quit Smoking. Which I Did! Little did I know that I would have to become a Expert in Ultra vires to try and Help other Quit Smoking Also.

 

[mostlyclassics]

Unfortunately, Robino1, reaching even the subpoena rung of the ladder frequently takes years, which does us no good.

And the FDA honchos will ignore Sen. Johnson and stonewall until that rung is reached. They're probably making the very safe bet that they're history after the change of administration in January 2017, no matter which party wins.

At which point, the process almost goes back to "GO" and starts over. That the process even continues depends on a) whether Sen. Johnson gets reelected and b) the Republicans retain control of the Senate.

Thus, I'm not holding out much hope for the congressional hearing route to solve our problems. Even so, it's one path that may help our cause, so I don't dismiss it out of hand.

Bear in mind, folks, that Sen. Johnson is in a nasty reelection fight. His seat is one of the ones the DNC has targeted. If the DNC gets its way, then control of the Senate will pass to the Democrats. So the DNC is pouring lots of funds into his opponent's campaign. Needless to say, I've already contributed to Sen. Johnson's reelection campaign and will shovel more funds his way. And I encourage all vapers to do the same.

 

[LoriP1702]

Thank you Robin for all your hard work!!!!

 

[crxess]

I hear you.

I tried an e-Cigarette because I wanted to Quit Smoking. Which I Did! Little did I know that I would have to become a Expert in Ultra vires to try and Help other Quit Smoking Also.

I Built an e-cigarette(yes, multi part order) because I Really Wanted to Quit Smoking. Little did I know I would become a Part of a Community of likeminded people in an ever advancing Technology market that could end Tobacco use in our lifetime.

*Little did I know I would eventually be joining in on a Revolution to Save this same Life Saving Industry.

Time to Repeal the 2016 FDA Deeming Regulations is Now, before they Destroy the industry.

 

[zoiDman]

Unfortunately, Robino1, reaching even the subpoena rung of the ladder frequently takes years, which does us no good.

...

I think you will find that something like a Subpoena timeline really depends on what Action is being considered. Also how many Committee Members know they will be sitting on the Committee during the Next session of Congress.

Not too many believe that Anything short of changing the Predicate Date is going to effect the August 8th, 2016 deadline. So we are really talking about effecting change before the August 2018 deadline.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread...

I'm under No Illusions that Sen Johnson can wave a Magic Wand and Poof, deeming will Go Away. Or that the current FDA will not use All means to Hamper any type of Actions that and Oversight Committee can levy against them.

But I also believe that Parts of the Deeming can be Changed/Modified that would be a Significant Benefit to the e-Cigarette Market. And Anything that can be Changed/Modified in a Non-Judicial arena Frees Up resources that are Sorely Needed.

An Oversight Committee can also act as "Discovery" for information that might be Very Difficult to obtain thru Other means.

It is that last portion about "Discovery" where an Oversight Investigation can Many times have the Biggest Impact in a Legal Challenge brought against the FDA by a Non-Government Entity.

 

[OcalaFlGuy]

FDA Snubs Senate Inquiry as Expected, Committee Will Pursue

As mentioned here, one of the Committee's main thrusts is to assist the lawsuits that have been filed to save vaping.

I am Sure the Committee is working closely with each suits attorneys to keep them abreast of the FDA's refusal to support their own position with the Committee. Occam's Razor works here too. The Easiest answer to the why of the FDA's refusal to provide information is that even They know their position is basically indefensible.

The FDA doing their job here Could have this settled in Congress fairly quickly. Instead, IF and When it ends up in a courtroom Mainly because the FDA usurped their duties, that Judge will Start Out Already PO'd at the FDA. Seems to me, the FDA's refusal to the Committee would be serious fodder to the suits requested Injunctions to stop any onerous Deeming actions until everything can be ironed out.

And again, the FDA's refusal also ties right into the idea that their original Real intention with Deeming was to get the whole subject of E-Cigs decided by the courts and Congress, Not Just By the FDA.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

 

[DC2]

Time to Repeal the 2016 FDA Deeming Regulations is Now, before they Destroy the industry.

This is the ultimate goal that we should all be striving for in the end.

Having electronic cigarettes defined under the tobacco umbrella is horrible.
Nothing good comes of that.

I want to stop having to pay $50/month to my insurance if I want to use nicotine.
That can only come if we get electronic cigarettes OUT of the deeming.

I want to not pay enormous sin taxes for a legal and nearly harmless product.
That can only come if we get electronic cigarettes OUT of the deeming.

I do not want to be stigmatized, looked down upon, and treated as a child-murderer.
That can only come if we get electronic cigarettes OUT of the deeming.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I am Sure the Committee is working closely with each suits attorneys to keep them abreast of the FDA's refusal to support their own position with the Committee. ...

Why do You believe this?

 

[MyMagicMist]

Someone else pointed out that the Tobacco Control Act, is that only, an Act, not a Law yet. This is what the FDA is using metaphorically as the bedrock for their regulations. It is not a law ergo I would think if they sought to enforce their regulations, any enforcement would of itself be illegal because there is no Law to base the enforcement upon. No Justice would back their use of force in such a case, and that is what it means to en-force, to use/apply force to back up policy.

Also I think but may not be correct, if the FDA did honor the subpoenas by Congress for information, the FDA would be in contempt of Congress? Would that mean the FDA could face 30 days jail for contempt, fines? Would Congress file for an injunction to void the FDA regulations?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or sound as though I'm frothing at the mouth against the FDA. Yes, they are human beings too. They are trying to do a job. If they are corrupted though, well, let us find Justice.

 

[OcalaFlGuy]

Why do You believe this?

Try Reading the link I posted.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

 

[MyMagicMist]

FDA Snubs Senate Inquiry as Expected, Committee Will Pursue

As mentioned here, one of the Committee's main thrusts is to assist the lawsuits that have been filed to save vaping.

I am Sure the Committee is working closely with each suits attorneys to keep them abreast of the FDA's refusal to support their own position with the Committee. Occam's Razor works here too. The Easiest answer to the why of the FDA's refusal to provide information is that even They know their position is basically indefensible.

The FDA doing their job here Could have this settled in Congress fairly quickly. Instead, IF and When it ends up in a courtroom Mainly because the FDA usurped their duties, that Judge will Start Out Already PO'd at the FDA. Seems to me, the FDA's refusal to the Committee would be serious fodder to the suits requested Injunctions to stop any onerous Deeming actions until everything can be ironed out.

And again, the FDA's refusal also ties right into the idea that their original Real intention with Deeming was to get the whole subject of E-Cigs decided by the courts and Congress, Not Just By the FDA.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Problem = Big Tobacco & Big Government are losing money due to a lifesaving industry.
Reaction = Attempt creating prohibition, maneuver the industry to a theater(court).
Solution = Let the industry continue yet agree it is taxed heavily.

That sound about par for the Hegelian? Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis does often create solutions.

Also:

Mr. Wittmann and Sen. Johnson are working on behalf of Americans. That is the interest group they hope to protect. They are working to promote the entire country’s freedom to choose.

FDA Snubs Senate Inquiry as Expected, Committee Will Pursue

About damn time some remember they are our employees. Bravo to these two fine gentlemen for doing their jobs.

 

[Robino1]

Also I think but may not correct, if the FDA did honor the subpoenas by Congress for information, the FDA would be in contempt of Congress? Would that mean the FDA could face 30 days jail for contempt, fines? Would Congress file for an injunction to void the FDA regulations?

As it stands now, Senator Johnson is just requesting information, informally. He has written a second letter with the deadline of June 20th. According to what I have read, in the link provided, he can subpoena at any time. After which he can hold the FDA in contempt of congress (if the FDA doesn't comply yet again).

If I am reading all of that correctly. May take a smarter brain than mine to understand all of it.

It looks to me like the Senator is trying to cordial instead of bullying his way into getting information. I'm not privy to what he is thinking, of course, so who knows how many deadlines he is going to give them before actually getting nasty.

I hope sooner rather than later.

 

[DC2]

Someone else pointed out that the Tobacco Control Act, is that only, an Act, not a Law yet.

Someone was wrong about that.

 

[OcalaFlGuy]

The more requests for info, formal or otherwise from the Committee the FDA blows off, the Better it looks when the Court considers an injunction, say on the Age Verification part that I think is "supposed" (according to the FDA) happen this December. Those injunction requests are already in place in the lawsuits.
Bruce in Ocala, Fl