100% VG -- how to

[ffb3723]

I only know about this because i have a friend who is allergic to everything (right pain) and this is the only liquid that doesn't give him any side effects. Doesn't mean its any safer in general but if you get any side effects it is definately worth trying.
Virgin Vapor | Electronic Cigarette Organic e-Liquid | Electronic Cigarettes. have a look and see what you think

 

[Kreator8]

My research from DuPont documents show both VG and PG can produce acrolein, but the parameters are not the same. the flash point is higher for the VG. Also many other chemicals found in analogs also produce acrolein when burned.
A good post though well done. Yes the wet wick acts as a cooler like a rad in a car. Also you taking a drag cools it more as well.
The coil is nothing more than a short circuit across a strong battery.

Not sure if you intended to say that PG can degrade to acrolein when overheated, the wording is not clear - but it's VG that does this. However it does not occur in PVs because the atomizer works like an electric kettle element: a heating coil immersed in a liquid bath. The temperature stays relatively low. If the liquid is removed, then the coil can get hot enough to degrade the glycerine to acrolein, but for this to be true then there is no liquid to convert.

Tests have been made to confirm this: acrolein is not produced by heating VG in an ecig. However under some conditions, tiny and almost undetectable amounts of acrolein have been found; though way lower than is present in cigarette smoke (glycerine is added to tobacco). In order to detect acrolein most easily, high voltage would be used, and the test carried out just on vapor produced at the changeover point between the two states: enough liquid to cool the coil, and then zero liquid to convert; the test to be only carried out at the point at which coil temperature rises, before all liquid is vaporised (the 'dry hit' point).

So to avoid tiny amounts of acrolein that are almost undetectable, and considerably less than present in cigarette smoke: don't vape your coil dry at high voltage. Or don't inhale at the point where the coil goes dry.

Or: (a) vape PG-only if you like those dry hits; (b) with VG, just keep your atty wet

 

[Kreator8]

A very good post, but I must point out first you are using Celsius not Fahrenheit. That being said I looked at your link to the other blog, and well he does not have all his facts correct.
Flash point is the temperature at which a liquid begins a combustion process with oxygen. That is the burn point. Water of course being made with oxygen can't burn so it just boils. It does however evaporate at lower temperatures. Toss a wet shirt over a chair. Does it not dry out after a few days?
Vegetable Glycerin has a flash point of 348.8° Fahrenheit.
Propylene glycol has a flash point of 228.2 ° degrees Fahrenheit. At lower pressures I have found reliable sources as low as 220.2° degrees Fahrenheit (but hey about the same).
Your friend said "I don't think atomizers get hotter than 280" First if he is still in his Celsius mode (he didn't say) that's about 536 degrees Fahrenheit. I don't think so, but 280 Fahrenheit well maybe about right I'll take that, but they are adjustable, and you can use different batteries and different ohm coils, so I rather say from 200 to 300 degrees Fahrenheit.
He also said "VG might make visible vapour but it is guarateed to vapourise less liquid and nicotine in total using the same energy generated from the ecigarette by the laws of physics".
O.K. now VG yes makes more visible vapor. I agree. "vaporize less liquid" Besides the bad spelling less means your liquid should last longer because it is harder to burn, it is thicker, denser, and the nicotine is nothing more than a percent of the liquid you are vaping, and you adjust that to your taste. I find the flavor of my favorite to be stronger with VG than PG. Thus I am sure it must be allowing the transfer of the nicotine as it does for my blueberry flavor.
As for the "using the same energy generated" well of course..lol it’s the same battery at the same settings with the same coil at the same ohm rating. Maybe ...just maybe the VG (because it’s thicker) would use more current, but on the other hand because it has a higher flash point it may be a more efficient coolant and lower the resistance of the coil. (Maybe)... either way I don't see this as a factor on battery drain.
Also note that a flash point and a boiling point are not the same. www.ppe.com/msds/Propylene glycol.pdf (Lyondell Chemical Company) Notice that water begins to evaporate on a stove before it begins to boil. Evaporate = vapor. There is no flash point for water. In other words With PG and VG the burn begins before the boil. The VG flash point is most likely well above the possible temperature of the average mod. PG may not be because the flash is very close to 220 degrees Fahrenheit.
Your link does make a very good point at the end. "Acrolein is not something you should risk inhaling" I agree, but that is for you to choose of course. I would like to see the person’s sources for his information.
Also as another blogger pointed out there is a set standard for human tolerance to acrolein, that is also true, but I rather none is better.
Well happy vaping to all... be safe.
If anyone would like a link to any of my facts just ask.
Thx
By the way that was a great post on your part.

PG is produced from petroleum, which is a combination of living matter, mostly decomposed vegetation from eons ago. VG is produced from current vegetable sources, so both have their sources in related compounds.

Acrolein is produced at higher temperatures than that at which we vape, which is reported to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 degrees +/-. The key to preventing acrolein production is simple ... keep your carto or atty topped off and saturated. When the flavor drops, top it off and you won't get near the point of producing acrolein. PG boils at 180 degrees. VG boils at 290 degrees. Acrolein production can occur at 280 degrees. Keep it saturated and there shouldn't be a problem. Acrolein has an acrid, putrid odor. Stick to voltages as low as possible to produce an acceptable vapor for the resistances you use. Cranking it way up just might get you near the point of creation for acrolein. Below is a link to acrolein on ECF.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...problem-anyone-vaping-vg-read.html#post158270

 

[Stonemull]

I don't understand why you keep mentioning flash point, what does that have to do with acrolein production?
so it evaporates at a lower temperature ... so what. it forms a PG vapour, it does not change chemistry unless I am missing something ?

 

[Kreator8]

Flash point is the temperature at which a liquid begins a combustion process with oxygen. Combustion is the start point of burning. If you use a magnify glass to burn paper with the sun it turns brown. It may possibly not burst into flames. That is the flash point. When it will burst into flames it is then "self sustaining combustion" With liquids it depends on the liquid but the flash point is the point when burn can begin thus changing the chemical structure due to sufficient temperature. At boil it may possible reach "self sustaining combustion". A pan of oil on the stove will smoke when hot this is true try it. If you get it real hot like for frying it is boiling. Right? Any hotter it can burst into flames. That would be "self sustaining combustion". I am sure you have seen a pan of oil on fire on a stove before. (don't toss water on it..lol)
A) vaporizing= under flash point = totally safe.
B) flash point = may start to burn = may produce unwanted chemical.
C) boiling point = If it is a combustible liquid it can self ignite and be on fire not just burning.

I hope that helps you.
Happy vaping!!

I don't understand why you keep mentioning flash point, what does that have to do with acrolein production?
so it evaporates at a lower temperature ... so what. it forms a PG vapour, it does not change chemistry unless I am missing something ?

 

[TemporalKnot]

I would imagine that tanks like the eGo-T & eGo-C can handle thicker liquids better than something like the Vision Stardusts. I would also suppose that anything that uses a fiberfill would be happier with thinner liquid.

 

[rolygate]

If a link can be provided to a resource that shows acrolein production from propylene glycol, that would be useful - thanks.


In normal vaping use, the temperature around the coil should not rise above 100C (it's been shown as 75C). If the liquid runs out then it could climb to whatever the temperature might be with a glowing red coil - several hundred degrees C. Luckily, there is no liquid to degrade into acrolein at that point, which is why tests on VG at elevated temperatures showed no acrolein production.

This is not a simple issue because there are many things affecting the temperature of the liquid and coil. For example the boiling point of VG might be X, but what is it when water is added (as it has been for ecig refill liquid)? And with flavors added? And how does the cooling air flow affect it?

In practice the only answer is to test the vapor. VG heated to 280C in an ecig does not produce acrolein in significant quantities - why, we don't exactly know. Acrolein has been found in one or more tests though, but in insignificant quantity - just above the level of detection for extremely sensitive equipment, in parts per billion. My belief is that these were the same sort of tests that photos are available for, where the ecig was operated inverted and would have been producing nasty fumes that no one could actually inhale, since they would be too hot and contain melted plastic among other things. Even so, the amount detected might (for argument's sake) work out that the acrolein from a year's vaping at that level (if you could actually inhale those fumes) would be equivalent to the amount in a week's smoking (as cigarette smoke contains measurable quantities of acrolein).

For most things - even toxins and carcinogens - it's probably likely that something present in quantities of parts per billion is, "millions of times lower than conceivably harmful to health," according to Prof Philips (I think) when talking about the carcinogens in the nicotine in NRTs and e-liquid. As an example, although Swedish Snus is steam-treated to remove carcinogens, a considerable quantity remain (as can be seen in any analysis). There are far more, perhaps thousands of times more, carcinogens in Snus than in NRTs or ecig refill nicotine. Even so, Snus does not elevate risk for any form of cancer. I seem to remember that Snus can contain 1,200ng/gm carcinogens, and that is a significant quantity. It doesn't cause cancer though.

 

[Kreator8]

Hello, I will agree VG seems to yield more information in relation to acrolein, but some is out there for PG and I will be looking to book mark those pages for you. Here is one "It is produced industrially from propylene" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrolein

also I found this but did not get to read it over to the end, but it looks like a good read. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/10/231

Also there is this http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en...=dupont propylene glycol and acrolein&f=false this shows PG can also be used to make acrolein by way of a chemical process, very interesting.

May I point out you said " VG heated to 280C in an ecig does not produce acrolein in significant quantities" 280 degrees Celsius is 526 degrees Fahrenheit. So I guess you just made a typo? 526 degrees Fahrenheit would burn the heck out of VG.
Also at the end you use the word "carcinogens" then you say "It doesn't cause cancer though". Don't mean to be rude but that is what "carcinogens" means. Does cause cancer. To go a few lines above you said "talking about the carcinogens in the nicotine" You can look it up and find nicotine is a toxin but not a carcinogen" Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The issue of what is in the mix and the air flow would all have to be factored to get the average flash point of the exact juice you are using. So here you hit the nail on the head. But also the size of the wick, ohm of the coil, voltage applied, and rate of juice feed will determine if enough heat can be applied before all the fluid vaporizes to create a burn. And if it does then we can ask what is produced if we burn the wick dry? I’ll have to look into that one.

I enjoyed your post good job. I will find more links for your first question if you need.
Enjoy your vape, I'm still liking this blueberry,,, so tasty!! I like it at 3,7 volts.....

 

[Sleigh]

Where do you punch the holes..... I use noge 3.0 ohms and switch my batteries (510 threads) to suit to the VG/PG mix.

 

[Adam the Aussie]

So after reading all this, nobody is certain if either PG or VG is safer. Sounds to me like there doesn't appear to danger in either of them. Hopefully this is the end of the PG is dangerous posts?

 

[Stonemull]

Flash point is the temperature at which a liquid begins a combustion process with oxygen. Combustion is the start point of burning. If you use a magnify glass to burn paper with the sun it turns brown. It may possibly not burst into flames. That is the flash point.

hmm, still confused .. according to wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

The flash point of a volatile material is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed.


... now, i see no mention of a reaction with oxygen there, its formed a vapour, its still PG 100% .. it has not however ignited .. which is an exothermic reaction with oxygen and will create many byproducts, I am yet to see a PV actually create a flame.

So yeh .. still fail to see what flashpoint has to do with anything, this seems to be your major argument and so far as I can see, its completely irrelevant.

 

[rolygate]

Hello, I will agree VG seems to yield more information in relation to acrolein, but some is out there for PG and I will be looking to book mark those pages for you. Here is one "It is produced industrially from propylene" Acrolein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the issue is whether acrolein can be produced from PG by heating it or any other form of decomposition that might be seen in an ecig. As far as we are aware this is not possible, although I'm not a chemist. It's just that we have several professional chemists here and they have never brought this up, in contrast to VG. Search for posts by Kinabaloo, Exogenesis, Kurt.

May I point out you said " VG heated to 280C in an ecig does not produce acrolein in significant quantities" 280 degrees Celsius is 526 degrees Fahrenheit. So I guess you just made a typo? 526 degrees Fahrenheit would burn the heck out of VG.

Yes, it does appear very high. However this is the temperature that Intellicig apparently went up to in their lab when testing for acrolein. The PDF has been removed from their website but there are plenty of references to it on ECF, it seems they went up to 300C to check. Unless this was done in some sort of pressure chamber there wouldn't have been any VG left to decompose, in any case.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...quid-lab-toxicology-reports-4.html#post658917
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...359-decomposition-vg-acrolein.html#post218676
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lastic-melting-carts-poison-3.html#post659034

And from John who was Intellicig's ECF rep at that time:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rolein-vg-simple-test-results.html#post479627

The normal temperature for an atomizer is around 60C to 75C, in some fault conditions rising to 130C. At that stage there probably wouldn't be any liquid left to vaporize.

Also at the end you use the word "carcinogens" then you say "It doesn't cause cancer though". Don't mean to be rude but that is what "carcinogens" means. Does cause cancer.

Yes, but the thing about toxins and carcinogens is the dose - their effects are entirely dose-dependent. Some examples:
- Vitamins A and D are vital for life, but toxic at larger doses than that normally available in the diet (or for D, created within the skin by ultraviolet irradiation); and lethally toxic at high doses. Many people have died from vitamin overdoses, by such routes for example as eating polar bear liver.
- Carcinogens are present in tiny amounts in NRTs such as nicotine skin patches, and e-liquid nicotine. They do not cause cancer because we have 20 years data from NRT use that shows no elevation of risk for cancer.
- Carcinogens are present in significant though small amounts in Swedish Snus. We have almost 30 years of data that shows Snus does not elevate risk for any form of cancer. There was some question about pancreatic cancer but this has now been dismissed.
- Carcinogens are present in large amounts in cigarette smoke. They cause cancer.

Disease or cancer caused by toxins and carcinogens are both dose-dependent. The dose can not only be low enough as to be non-harmful, in the case of some toxins it can even be beneficial (some vitamins and the majority of medicines are toxins - a big enough dose will kill you, and for some materials it isn't that large).

Also, read the Notes in this post, as regards MSDS sheets:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...9160-analysis-electronic-cigarette-vapor.html

 

[DrDitto]

I lile to user 80VG 20PG extra flavor because i like to feel throat hit from PG

 

[King Josiah]

I use 70% vg and 30% pg. I bought diy juice supplies so Ill experiment with it for finding my personal taste.

 

[Stonemull]

the silence is deafening ..
could facts have finally won one ?

I have been told 3 times this week that PG is a toxic poison. once by a lady in a shopping centre wondering what my provari was, once by a one post noob on the aussie forums, i count this thread as the third, bit of a long shot i know..

 

[Kreator8]

Good reply my friend. Yes I do believe that PG as well as VG can produce acrolein. I am trying to find my source for you. PG is made from oil of plants from millions of years ago. VG is made from plants from today. The chemical structure is extremely close. Acrolin is only a minor change in structure. We know VG can be converted into PG. One way or the other both by heat or chemically can be converted to acrolein. So even if I can't re-find the link I had from a DuPont test (I think I will as soon as I have a bit of time) we can still know that heat does cause molecular change in most every substance. Of course the temperature for every substance we know will vary. As such since we have a long way to go I testing vaping on humans even if we can't say for sure there is a strong danger (I do not think there is) we also can not say for sure it is safe. It is my reasoning that if VG has a much higher flash point that it is most likely above the probable heat of the average mod. PG in my mind is questionable due to the lower flash point. I still think it is safe though as most vapors will cut with some VG and thus raise the flash point. A 50 /50 mix should be about 250 degrees "F". If the voltage is kept down and a wet wick I don't see any danger of acrolein production for either substance. Furthermore the VG Does make your vape more visible. Personally I like to see it.
Nice chat love your points.
I look for the truth not just what I would like to see. Knowledge is power.
I still like blueberry best but strawberry was not bad. Had some last night.
Oh and the point of all the Juice vaping away so there is nothing left to burn. Yeh that's a tough one. Good theory though. I would think we need to consider it is not water and unlike water it can be burnt. I will just take a stab at this. If the point of the heat source is strong enough to maintain temperature even with a large amount of coolant feeding it it would I think result in vaping at a burned temperature. Like a pan of oil on the stove. If you heat it hot enough it would bust into flame. Oil still in pan. If you keep it warm but not too hot it would smoke till it drys up. I think these basic principles would play a role here. It's hard to find this form of experiment on the internet at this point. We could try taking VG and PG in small pans on the stove and turn it up and see what happens. lol If the PG busts into flame first on same heat setting I think that would say alot. (please don't do this at home peeps, I don't want anyone getting hurt).
Again thanks for your reply you are a thinking man. Good to see.

I think the issue is whether acrolein can be produced from PG by heating it or any other form of decomposition that might be seen in an ecig. As far as we are aware this is not possible, although I'm not a chemist. It's just that we have several professional chemists here and they have never brought this up, in contrast to VG. Search for posts by Kinabaloo, Exogenesis, Kurt.



Yes, it does appear very high. However this is the temperature that Intellicig apparently went up to in their lab when testing for acrolein. The PDF has been removed from their website but there are plenty of references to it on ECF, it seems they went up to 300C to check. Unless this was done in some sort of pressure chamber there wouldn't have been any VG left to decompose, in any case.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...quid-lab-toxicology-reports-4.html#post658917
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...359-decomposition-vg-acrolein.html#post218676
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lastic-melting-carts-poison-3.html#post659034

And from John who was Intellicig's ECF rep at that time:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rolein-vg-simple-test-results.html#post479627

The normal temperature for an atomizer is around 60C to 75C, in some fault conditions rising to 130C. At that stage there probably wouldn't be any liquid left to vaporize.



Yes, but the thing about toxins and carcinogens is the dose - their effects are entirely dose-dependent. Some examples:
- Vitamins A and D are vital for life, but toxic at larger doses than that normally available in the diet (or for D, created within the skin by ultraviolet irradiation); and lethally toxic at high doses. Many people have died from vitamin overdoses, by such routes for example as eating polar bear liver.
- Carcinogens are present in tiny amounts in NRTs such as nicotine skin patches, and e-liquid nicotine. They do not cause cancer because we have 20 years data from NRT use that shows no elevation of risk for cancer.
- Carcinogens are present in significant though small amounts in Swedish Snus. We have almost 30 years of data that shows Snus does not elevate risk for any form of cancer. There was some question about prostate cancer but this has now been dismissed.
- Carcinogens are present in large amounts in cigarette smoke. They cause cancer.

Disease or cancer caused by toxins and carcinogens are both dose-dependent. The dose can not only be low enough as to be non-harmful, in the case of some toxins it can even be beneficial (some vitamins and the majority of medicines are toxins - a big enough dose will kill you, and for some materials it isn't that large).

Also, read the Notes in this post, as regards MSDS sheets:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...9160-analysis-electronic-cigarette-vapor.html

 

[Malduk]

I will just take a stab at this. If the point of the heat source is strong enough to maintain temperature even with a large amount of coolant feeding it it would I think result in vaping at a burned temperature. Like a pan of oil on the stove. If you heat it hot enough it would bust into flame. Oil still in pan. If you keep it warm but not too hot it would smoke till it drys up. I think these basic principles would play a role here. It's hard to find this form of experiment on the internet at this point. We could try taking VG and PG in small pans on the stove and turn it up and see what happens. lol If the PG busts into flame first on same heat setting I think that would say alot. (please don't do this at home peeps, I don't want anyone getting hurt).

Easy to test out in a genesis atty. Its just stainless steel and PG/VG, what have you. I can reach the temperature where mesh would glow red by dry burning it, but I never managed to set the juice on fire. In extreme scenario, heating wire would break before any of this happens actually.

 

[Kreator8]

Thank you for that input very helpful. I would like to try one of these "genesis atty's". but i can't find one. Also we need to consider size of wire being used. If someone puts in a heavy wire maybe it would hold out a bit longer. Sounds like a good unit to do testing.

Easy to test out in a genesis atty. Its just stainless steel and PG/VG, what have you. I can reach the temperature where mesh would glow red by dry burning it, but I never managed to set the juice on fire. In extreme scenario, heating wire would break before any of this happens actually.

 

[Malduk]

Thank you for that input very helpful. I would like to try one of these "genesis atty's". but i can't find one. Also we need to consider size of wire being used. If someone puts in a heavy wire maybe it would hold out a bit longer. Sounds like a good unit to do testing.

This is gen-style atty:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25622919/Slije/Photo 28.7.2012. 13 53 54.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25622919/Slije/Photo 28.7.2012. 18 32 37.jpg

Atty chamber is only stainless steel, and wick is made out of stainless steel mesh. So if you want to test how far up can you heat up the liquid, its THE atty to use.
As for the wire, couple of strands can be tied up together, but thats not "realistic" at all, since no one would be vaping on such a thick wire. Since it would also drastically lower the resistance, mechanical mod would be required, and then your only limit is the battery itself.

 

[Racehorse]

Have you found some good juice you like?

No, not yet. After I bought hardware, some sample packs and 2 6ml bottle of eliquid to start me off, I was out of money, so had to vape the stuff I bought. (RY4, Johnson Creek sampler pack, and a few other things) None of which I liked. That's okay, cuz I got lots more samples coming my way this month...my all day vape will show up soon.


BTW, I "did" say in my topic opening

not asking for a debate

just wanted to know the best hardware to use for high % VG, and ya'll have been real helpful, thanks.

Enjoying the debate too though