16 Sep 14: Memo to public health grandees: vaping, vapers and you (by Clive Bates)

[AndriaD]

Where's her backbone! Most of my life has been spent just looking for things I could do that my mom disapproved of! That's probably half the reason I ever started smoking in the first place!

Andria

 

[Nate760]

Well, she and hubby are moving out to an apartment, and since it's on the third floor in a no-smoking complex (and she is one huge mama - literally, no disrespect!) I know that she will go back to vaping rather than doing 3 flights of stairs for a smoke. But regardless of what her OB/GYN says, she won't vape in front of my wife, which means until she moves out. That is the damage.

It's not my business, obviously, but I think you need to ask your wife a couple of pointed questions:

1) Do you have any reason to believe the harms associated with vaping are anywhere near as severe as the harms associated with smoking?

2) Would you rather your daughter and unborn grandchild be exposed to dozens of carcinogens, or no carcinogens?

 

[Anjaffm]

And I have indeed tried to keep my commentary calm, civilized, and to-the-facts, whether on ECF, in my comment to the FDA, or in comments to other online articles. But I'm mad as hell.

Originally I was ...... off at what I see the FDA is planning on doing to vaping. I had managed to get several friends to quit using vaping, my wife was vaping some, and my daughter was vaping quite a lot (probably replacing about 80% of her cigarette smoking).

When my daughter became pregnant, I told her "Now's a great time to switch over to vaping".

My wife told her "You need to stop vaping right now! Nobody knows if it's safe for the baby!" And she's quite adamant about it, and won't even allow the subject to come up in discussion. Her POV is based entirely on what she's read about vaping on the interwebs, and I cannot convince her otherwise (and she gets very angry when I try).

The result? My daughter stopped vaping and is now smoking at her pre-vape level.

On the one hand, my wife is right. I cannot cite a single study that relates e-cigarette use with birth defects or other pregnancy concerns. I can cite many studies on how cigarette smoking relates to these issues.

The CDC, FDA, WHO, ALA, AHA all basically say the same thing as my wife, and are basically the reason my wife thinks the way she does.



And it makes me angry.

That is horrible. And I am very sorry to hear that.

This is precisely what the enemies of vaping are trying to achieve with their FUD propaganda campaigns. Make no mistake about that.
Their funding depends on a high number of SMOKERS. And your daughter and her unborn child are of no concern to them whatsoever.
This is the kind of people we are up against.

And yes, I treat them with the same disdain that they use for us.

.................

Good points, Bruce. 4-letter expletives do not do anybody any service, however, the public need to be made aware that anti-ecig ANTZ lies are deliberate attempts to murder 44 million American smokers and 1.22 billion worldwide. Whenever I see ANTZ lies in the media, I think we should all post something that highlights the massive opportunity of ecigs to improve public health, but also the fact that the demonizing ANTZ lies are contrary to public health. Something along these lines should work nicely:

Calls to suppress, restrict, or ban electronic vaporizers are tantamount to the cold, calculated, and systematic murder of 44 million current American smokers, and 1.22 billion world-wide (Hanley 2014). Evidence presented by Nitzkin (2014) suggests that propaganda, lies, and misinformation regarding tobacco harm reduction (THR) perpetrated by the tobacco control industry and disseminated by so-called "health" groups and public departments have already caused nearly 10 million unnecessary deaths related to smoking in the past 20 years alone (480,000 deaths per year × 20 years). Even under conservative assumptions regarding the success of THR initiatives using ecigs, Nitzkin (2014) estimates that up to 4.8 million American lives could be saved over the next 20 years. Nitzkin (2014) concludes «[a] carefully structured Tobacco Harm Reduction (THR) initiative, with e-cigarettes as a prominent THR modality, added to current tobacco control programming, is the most feasible policy option likely to substantially reduce tobacco-attributable illness and death in the United States over the next 20 years.»

Hanley (2014): Stubbing out e-cigarettes will condemn smokers to death - Independent.ie
Nitzkin (2014): The Case in Favor of E-Cigarettes for Tobacco Harm Reduction

Excellent! Thank you very much!
Now, this comment should show up under ALL of the FUD nonsense that is published in the online media in the US.
Bookmarking....

 

[Sirius]

That is horrible. And I am very sorry to hear that.

This is precisely what the enemies of vaping are trying to achieve with their FUD propaganda campaigns. Make no mistake about that.
Their funding depends on a high number of SMOKERS. And your daughter and her unborn child are of no concern to them whatsoever.
This is the kind of people we are up against.

And yes, I treat them with the same disdain that they use for us.

.................



Excellent! Thank you very much!
Now, this comment should show up under ALL of the FUD nonsense that is published in the online media in the US.
Bookmarking....

FUD Ha! Good name reminds me of Elmer Fudd. Anja one hangout with the younger generation and you will see that they are not taking anything seriously.
That's VAPERS Hangout on Google Hangouts. Blowing clouds and building coils. China clones and juice. Piercings and tats..lol
They are like, yeah some of you vapers take this vaping thing way serious. Relax dood..it's only vaping! It's not like the whole world revolves around vaping.
I guess ya don't miss something until someone takes it away.

 

[Anjaffm]

@Sirius:

FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - it is a propaganda tactic. See here
Fear, uncertainty and doubt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I cannot make heads or tails of the rest of your posting. Except that young people can be quite naive. Yeah, most of us start out naive. Until life teaches us differently. Life is a good teacher, but not a kind one.

 

[Sirius]

@Sirius:

FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - it is a propaganda tactic. See here
Fear, uncertainty and doubt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I cannot make heads or tails of the rest of your posting. Except that young people can be quite naive. Yeah, most of us start out naive. Until life teaches us differently. Life is a good teacher, but not a kind one.

Vapers Hangout is like a group video call. Like Skype..you know about Skype? The same but with Google.

 

[Anjaffm]

Vapers Hangout is like a group video call. Like Skype..you know about Skype? The same but with Google.

thank you for the information, dear. And yes, I am familiar with Skype.

But what on earth would I - a 54-year-old lady from Germany - do in such a group? The atmosphere that you described in posting No 44 does not appeal to me. Therefore, I feel quite comfortable not being familiar with it. Oh, I do not go to "tunnel raves" either. Or it that kind of thing "out" again? Honestly, I have no idea Young people will be young people. And good for them. But that does not mean that .. uhm.. older people have to do the same things. Frankly, I cannot see myself covered in piercings and tattoos, blowing big clouds, joining some video call group with young people and making myself look completely silly in some misguided attempt to be "hip" or "in" or whatever they tend to call it now.

In the immortal words of Rhett Butler: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a ....."

-------------

Coming back to the subject of the thread and the average age group of the average vaping activist:
Yes, I agree that most of us are in - or past - middle age. For three reasons, as I see it:

1. the average vaper tends to be in or past middle age, after at least a decade of smoking tobacco. After all, people tend to switch to a healthier alternative once they find out (from their own bodies) that their current pastime is not doing them good. As long as everything is hunky-dory, there is no reason to make a switch.

2. many people in our generation have learned to think for ourselves. To stand up for ourselves. And the life experience that you have to stand up for yourself or be victimized and trampled underfoot - that is something that comes over time.

3. young people nowadays are not like our generation (I was born in 1960):
a. they have been heavily indoctrinated by what passes as education nowadays
b. the economic situation and the scarcety of well-paying jobs in this day and age is a very real threat to the future and the entire life planning of young people. That results in an attitude of "shut up and put up" in public life and / or a "who cares" attitude in private life. Fear for one's own future - including one's ability to provide oneself with the bare essentials - does not further any kind of political activity.

That is how I see it. And - to my mind - that is why most vaping activists are in and above middle age.

addition:
And middle-aged people who have made their way in life, they are not easily cowed by so-called "public health" self-proclaimed "experts" who spout nonsense and lies. On the contrary.

 

[AndriaD]

FUD Ha! Good name reminds me of Elmer Fudd. Anja one hangout with the younger generation and you will see that they are not taking anything seriously.
That's VAPERS Hangout on Google Hangouts. Blowing clouds and building coils. China clones and juice. Piercings and tats..lol
They are like, yeah some of you vapers take this vaping thing way serious. Relax dood..it's only vaping! It's not like the whole world revolves around vaping.
I guess ya don't miss something until someone takes it away.

And they can't value vaping as we do, because they haven't spent DECADES enslaved to a burning tube of poison, which vaping has delivered us from.

Love your new "location" -- "asylum" down here in the true sense -- don't get much persecution down here about it, and I'm so thankful!!

Andria

 

[Anjaffm]

And they can't value vaping as we do, because they haven't spent DECADES enslaved to a burning tube of poison, which vaping has delivered us from.
Andria

Let us agree to disagree on this, please.

I personally liked smoking. I enjoyed it. I did not feel "enslaved" for one moment. Not once. Not ever. Smoking gave me something. Something that I wanted.
- And here in Europe, the ANTZ propaganda has not infected ordinary people like it must have in the States. I was horrified to read about the anti-smoking hysteria and hostility in the States -

I was smoking too much in the end. (a death in the immediate family can have this effect ...) And smoking too much was not doing me good.
So I saw an e-cig in my colleague's hand, tried it, bought one, with the intention of using this in the evenings to avoid smoking too much in the evenings. As this was not doing me good.

Well, long story short:
I started up my 1st e-cig, thought "wow! this rocks!!!" - and made the switch immediately, effortlessly and with great pleasure. Because I had found something that gives me all that smoking used to give me. But without the unpleasant effects that smoking too much had given me. I had found something so much better *happy smile*

And now those so-called "public health" self-appointed "experts" want to take this lovely thing away from me?
While whining - at the same time - that smoking tobacco is oh-so-bad?
Over my dead body!

To my mind, there are many different reasons why people love vaping. And why people become vaping activists.
But we all have one thing in common:

It is our body. We are not harming anybody. And silly, lying busybodies can just .... out. Period.

 

[Nate760]

I personally liked smoking. I enjoyed it. I did not feel "enslaved" for one moment. Not once. Not ever.

This. I was not a slave or a victim. I smoked because I enjoyed it and because I wanted to.

 

[Anjaffm]

Actually, Clive Bates has found much better words for my "just .... out" :

3. Activism explained. You seem surprised to find there are people who get up and do something, and do it for nothing – you seem to assume someone must be paying if vapers do anything. I can see why you might think this: it rarely happens in your world or it is a distant memory from your more idealistic youth. There are no grass roots or unpaid individuals campaigning for the things you want in this field. You should think of these people more like the activist campaigners you know in drugs or HIV/AIDS. Many vapers are passionate about their experience: they have escaped the death trap of smoking – or are heading that way – and having feelings of pride, empowerment, agency and control, as well as immediate welfare and economic benefits, and a much better long term health prognosis. They want others to benefit from the experience and they really don’t want you to take it all away through clumsy or excessive regulation based on poor science, comprehensive misunderstanding or for ideological reasons. And they don’t want to be collateral damage in your war on Big Tobacco, which is of little relevance to them.

and (addressing public health people):

5. The relationship between vapers and public health people. Your relationship with vapers is asymmetric – and you really do need to understand this. They are the ‘public’ in public health. They should be a matter of professional interest to you. In your profession, you need to understand them and why they do what they do, in order to make professional public health judgements. You need to do this with high standards of professional conduct and to approach them with humility and empathy. You probably have something to learn and you might even get to understand what inspires them. But they have no similar obligation to you. They have other jobs, other lives and no professional need to understand you or engage with you. If you think “there is a lot of mistrust & misunderstanding on both sides” that is your problem, not their problem. Their interest in you, if any, is that you might spoil what they are doing, that you are making provocative or unfounded remarks about them or what they do, or you are dismissing their experience as mere anecdote.

 

[AndriaD]

There were times I enjoyed it... but most of the time, the last 20 yrs or so, it felt like a ball and chain. A lot of that was my fault, or maybe my addiction's fault... jobs I didn't take, places I wouldn't go because I couldn't smoke... I felt completely enslaved; if I didn't have 2 pks of smokes in my purse when I left the house, I was in a panic! When I started smoking outdoors instead of in my own dwelling, 16 yrs ago, I felt it even more -- watching TV, having to sprint for the porch at every commercial -- someone on a show would smoke, and it would drive me NUTS; I'd start munching just to avoid the jonesing for a smoke.

And at every payday, having to reserve that $88 just for cigarettes, no matter what. I wished so many times I didn't have to do that. This last payday, if I'd still had to do that, it would have been a real nightmare; we had so many bills to pay, I barely had enough for $20 worth of ejuice.

Maybe I'm one of the few who feels it, but I completely feel I've been released from smoker's prison. That's why I was so disappointed with myself when I briefly went back to smoking after my illness, and was so determined that it WOULD be brief, before I got back to vape-only. Now I'm almost at 2 months back, which is twice as long as my brief return to smoking. YAY!

Andria

 

[Sirius]

thank you for the information, dear. And yes, I am familiar with Skype.

But what on earth would I - a 54-year-old lady from Germany - do in such a group? The atmosphere that you described in posting No 44 does not appeal to me. Therefore, I feel quite comfortable not being familiar with it. Oh, I do not go to "tunnel raves" either. Or it that kind of thing "out" again? Honestly, I have no idea Young people will be young people. And good for them. But that does not mean that .. uhm.. older people have to do the same things. Frankly, I cannot see myself covered in piercings and tattoos, blowing big clouds, joining some video call group with young people and making myself look completely silly in some misguided attempt to be "hip" or "in" or whatever they tend to call it now.

In the immortal words of Rhett Butler: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a ....."

-------------

Coming back to the subject of the thread and the average age group of the average vaping activist:
Yes, I agree that most of us are in - or past - middle age. For three reasons, as I see it:

1. the average vaper tends to be in or past middle age, after at least a decade of smoking tobacco. After all, people tend to switch to a healthier alternative once they find out (from their own bodies) that their current pastime is not doing them good. As long as everything is hunky-dory, there is no reason to make a switch.

2. many people in our generation have learned to think for ourselves. To stand up for ourselves. And the life experience that you have to stand up for yourself or be victimized and trampled underfoot - that is something that comes over time.

3. young people nowadays are not like our generation (I was born in 1960):
a. they have been heavily indoctrinated by what passes as education nowadays
b. the economic situation and the scarcety of well-paying jobs in this day and age is a very real threat to the future and the entire life planning of young people. That results in an attitude of "shut up and put up" in public life and / or a "who cares" attitude in private life. Fear for one's own future - including one's ability to provide oneself with the bare essentials - does not further any kind of political activity.

That is how I see it. And - to my mind - that is why most vaping activists are in and above middle age.

addition:
And middle-aged people who have made their way in life, they are not easily cowed by so-called "public health" self-proclaimed "experts" who spout nonsense and lies. On the contrary.

Well put and I will add that I don't hang out with the youth there much either. There are a few of us older folks,(50's) there also. Usually talking about how some folks get really stressed out about things like the FDA and all. What's going to happen is going to happen. I'm as concerned as anyone here but I'm not getting so stressed out about it to the point that I would be better off just going back to smoking. lol

Yeah on that, earlier we were discussing religion. Well I have noticed the more fanatical religious people are always worried about what MIGHT happen to them. Worried about evil and all that. Not unlike that are some of the vaping community. Yeah and we have that evil thing going on too with BT and BP.

I'm just not stressing out about it. Trying to be cool as always and worrying about the most important things in life like mortgages and putting food on the table.
That can stress a person out enough. lol

 

[Sirius]

And they can't value vaping as we do, because they haven't spent DECADES enslaved to a burning tube of poison, which vaping has delivered us from.

Love your new "location" -- "asylum" down here in the true sense -- don't get much persecution down here about it, and I'm so thankful!!

Andria

Yes Andria we are quite a bit more relaxed a people than some living out west and up north aren't we hon.

 

[Sirius]

There were times I enjoyed it... but most of the time, the last 20 yrs or so, it felt like a ball and chain. A lot of that was my fault, or maybe my addiction's fault... jobs I didn't take, places I wouldn't go because I couldn't smoke... I felt completely enslaved; if I didn't have 2 pks of smokes in my purse when I left the house, I was in a panic! When I started smoking outdoors instead of in my own dwelling, 16 yrs ago, I felt it even more -- watching TV, having to sprint for the porch at every commercial -- someone on a show would smoke, and it would drive me NUTS; I'd start munching just to avoid the jonesing for a smoke.

And at every payday, having to reserve that $88 just for cigarettes, no matter what. I wished so many times I didn't have to do that. This last payday, if I'd still had to do that, it would have been a real nightmare; we had so many bills to pay, I barely had enough for $20 worth of ejuice.

Maybe I'm one of the few who feels it, but I completely feel I've been released from smoker's prison. That's why I was so disappointed with myself when I briefly went back to smoking after my illness, and was so determined that it WOULD be brief, before I got back to vape-only. Now I'm almost at 2 months back, which is twice as long as my brief return to smoking. YAY!

Andria

It's a mutha ain't it hon? There in goes the WHY of that last cigarette just before they shot the guys in the firing squads. To give him what they thought would be one last act of kindness. I know I use to think if I knew I was going to die in the next few minutes, I would light one up and drink that last cuppa!
Nothing I loved more than a cig and a cup of coffee for 40+ years.

On that note..it's WORLD VAPING DAY? Do we celebrate by buying an authentic or some gourmet juices?

ETA
That Clive Bates is awesome Anja..thank you so much for hooking us readers up! You are a Dear!

 

[Sirius]

Let us agree to disagree on this, please.

I personally liked smoking. I enjoyed it. I did not feel "enslaved" for one moment. Not once. Not ever. Smoking gave me something. Something that I wanted.
- And here in Europe, the ANTZ propaganda has not infected ordinary people like it must have in the States. I was horrified to read about the anti-smoking hysteria and hostility in the States -

I was smoking too much in the end. (a death in the immediate family can have this effect ...) And smoking too much was not doing me good.
So I saw an e-cig in my colleague's hand, tried it, bought one, with the intention of using this in the evenings to avoid smoking too much in the evenings. As this was not doing me good.

Well, long story short:
I started up my 1st e-cig, thought "wow! this rocks!!!" - and made the switch immediately, effortlessly and with great pleasure. Because I had found something that gives me all that smoking used to give me. But without the unpleasant effects that smoking too much had given me. I had found something so much better *happy smile*

And now those so-called "public health" self-appointed "experts" want to take this lovely thing away from me?
While whining - at the same time - that smoking tobacco is oh-so-bad?
Over my dead body!

To my mind, there are many different reasons why people love vaping. And why people become vaping activists.
But we all have one thing in common:

It is our body. We are not harming anybody. And silly, lying busybodies can just .... out. Period.

How did I miss this..good post!
You and I totally agree 100% and that will now be my activist mantra. .... Out! Clive Bates is The Man!
What in this world has become of live and let live. The Nanny State has ruined it all. I for one need no nannys. That and crooked politicians. Idk what get's to me most?

 

[Sirius]

I can pretty much predict what will have to happen for Public Health to accept vaping. If the government makes it way to expensive for the average vaper to vape, and those like me that quit smoking and started vaping due to health issues started back smoking and started dropping like flies the outrage would start! Then maybe they would back off. How many would go to an earlier grave to pay that price would it take though? 100k? 1 million?
Too big a price if it were just one imho.

 

[Anjaffm]

There were times I enjoyed it... but most of the time, the last 20 yrs or so, it felt like a ball and chain. A lot of that was my fault, or maybe my addiction's fault... jobs I didn't take, places I wouldn't go because I couldn't smoke... I felt completely enslaved;

Was that really your fault? Or was it the fault of those who demonized and marginalized smokers? In a big huge campaign of "social engineering" that is more than reminiscient of the past of several European countries? see here: Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger
They deliberately victimized you. And then they brainwashed you into blaming the victim. Stockholm Syndrome on a great scale.

Do remember please that those self-same people are now attempting to do the same with vapers. With those who have done what they demanded: most of us have quit smoking. But it is not enough for them. They hunger for victims. Because they feed on the blood (money) of their victims. But this time, the (now ex-) smokers have learned. And we see them for what they are. Parasites. Greedy. And evil. (see picture below)
(Anybody who finds my stance a little tough, please read Clive Bates' document again)

Maybe I'm one of the few who feels it, but I completely feel I've been released from smoker's prison. That's why I was so disappointed with myself when I briefly went back to smoking after my illness, and was so determined that it WOULD be brief, before I got back to vape-only. Now I'm almost at 2 months back, which is twice as long as my brief return to smoking. YAY!

And big huge CONGRATULATIONS! Well done!

How did I miss this..good post!
You and I totally agree 100% and that will now be my activist mantra. .... Out! Clive Bates is The Man!
What in this world has become of live and let live. The Nanny State has ruined it all. I for one need no nannys. That and crooked politicians. Idk what get's to me most?

Absolutely. Clive Bates rocks!

By the way, he is the former director of ASH UK (Action on Smoking and Health). One person with a public health background who has embraced harm reduction. Like Bill Godshall, Michael Siegel, Gilbert Ross.. (I know I am missing one, do forgive me please and add him if possible)

---------------------------
picture (mentioned above)

 

[Sirius]

@ Anjaffm

I just LOVE this statement. "Until the pain of remaining the same becomes GREATER! than the pain of change, change will NOT occur"! ~ Dan Rogers

 

[Nate760]

I can pretty much predict what will have to happen for Public Health to accept vaping. If the government makes it way to expensive for the average vaper to vape, and those like me that quit smoking and started vaping due to health issues started back smoking and started dropping like flies the outrage would start! Then maybe they would back off. How many would go to an earlier grave to pay that price would it take though? 100k? 1 million?
Too big a price if it were just one imho.

I'm looking now at the CDC's numbers on national cigarette consumption (here's the link if anyone wants to refer to it: Consumption of Cigarettes and Combustible Tobacco — United States, 2000–2011 ), and here's what I see: their most recent data are from 2011, which is a few years after e-cigs first became widely available. In the five-year period between 2007-2011, total cigarette consumption went down by 25.5 percent. In the previous five-year period, it went down by 11.3 percent. In other words, in the first half-decade after large numbers of people started vaping, the rate of decrease in cigarette consumption more than doubled.

It must be noted, obviously, that correlation is not causation, and there surely are other factors that have contributed to this phenomenon. But it is difficult to argue in the face of those numbers that vaping hasn't been a major driver in the decrease in cigarette sales, and it's absolutely impossible to argue that it's causing the rate of cigarette consumption to stagnate or increase.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the 2012-13 numbers become available, for as we well know, the number of vapers and the size of the vaping market have increased by orders of magnitude since 2011. So, when the CDC's own numbers show (as they almost certainly will) that cigarette consumption continues to decrease at a rate inversely proportional to the uptake in e-cig use, I really don't see how the ANTZ are going to have a leg left on which to stand. Their core arguments ("discourages quitting," "re-normalizes smoking behavior," and all the rest) will have been utterly decimated, even more so than they already are, by the government's own statistics.