16 Sep 14: Memo to public health grandees: vaping, vapers and you (by Clive Bates)

[AndriaD]

For autism, I'd look more at environmental toxins than vaccines -- we all got vaccinated, and as you point out, autism was fairly rare in our boomer generation.

A baby's antibodies come from the mother, but they only last about 6 months, then the baby needs antibodies of his/her own, and without vaccines, there won't be any antibodies. That's science, not subject to beliefs -- it's still a fact whether you believe it or not.

I'm thinking all it will take to get these folks back on the science/vaccination train is another epidemic of measles, german measles (rubella), mumps, whooping cough, diptheria, or god forbid, polio.

Andria

 

[Nate760]

My daughter is delaying the vaccines for my grandson. He's almost a year old and hasn't had any vaccines since he was 2 months old. I think she mostly doesn't want to hurt him when he was too young to understand why he was being hurt. She has always been kind of a free spirit kind of person. Keep in mind her generation, she's 20, has seen more kids with autism than they have seen kids dying from from vaccine preventable diseases. I am not saying that I agree with her decisions. My kids were all vaccinated on schedule. The younger generation doesn't remember when the whole neighborhood came down with the measles and one or two didn't survive or had serious complications....

My son's 20 also, and he often finds himself in heated arguments with people in his own age group who swear up and down (because they read it on some conspiracy website, naturally) that vaccines are the most diabolical inventions of all time. So I guess we can all look forward to spending our retirement years watching large-scale outbreaks of infectious diseases that were all but eradicated in the 1960s.

 

[Jingles]

Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it...

 

[Nate760]

For autism, I'd look more at environmental toxins than vaccines -- we all got vaccinated, and as you point out, autism was fairly rare in our boomer generation.

It probably wasn't any less common, it just went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

 

[dragonpuff]

It probably wasn't any less common, it just went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

This is true, they've changed the criteria for diagnosing autism a lot in the last 40 years or so. Before that kids with mild autism were just considered odd, not having a disability of any kind, and kids who had severe autism were usually classified as mentally ......ed.

 

[AndriaD]

This is true, they've changed the criteria for diagnosing autism a lot in the last 40 years or so. Before that kids with mild autism were just considered odd, not having a disability of any kind, and kids who had severe autism were usually classified as mentally ......ed.

That's probably very true; I never heard of "ADD" till after my son was in school, starting in '94, and one of his teachers suggested it. I asked for more information about it, and what I heard positively electrified me -- they all just thought I was "lazy" in school, not that I actually have some dysfunction of my brain chemistry! But this also goes a LONG way in explaining why I've had such a tough time, for so many years, trying to get off cigarettes -- cold turkey off cigarettes, I'm a freaking basket case, not just with cravings and ill-temper, but just cannot focus on anything at all, even stuff I really like, like reading!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

It probably wasn't any less common, it just went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

That's probably true to some extent, but I think no one can dispute that there are a lot more toxins in the air and all around us now, as opposed to 30 or more years ago -- that thing with the ozone layer? Didn't we start hearing about that in the 90's, or so?

Now that my nose is no longer full of cigarette smoke, I'm constantly appalled just by the stench of traffic -- even rolled-up windows and the AC on recirc doesn't totally insulate me. And I don't live in "the city," but in a suburban town about 25-30 miles NE of the "big city."

Andria

 

[Nate760]

That's probably true to some extent, but I think no one can dispute that there are a lot more toxins in the air and all around us now, as opposed to 30 or more years ago -- that thing with the ozone layer? Didn't we start hearing about that in the 90's, or so?

The ozone hole is over Antarctica, and was first observed in the late 70s if I'm not mistaken. As far as toxins in the air, specifically from vehicle/industrial emissions, things are actually a lot better in our part of the world than they were 30-40-50 years ago. Both my parents grew up in LA in the 50s and 60s, and they can remember lots of school days when they couldn't have PE class outside because the smog was so bad. Some of the major factory cities (Pittsburgh being a prime example) used to have such bad air you couldn't see the sun on a clear day. It wasn't until the EPA was established and core pieces of environmental legislation passed in the early 70s (somewhat ironically, our most important progress on the environment happened during, and largely at the behest of, the Nixon administration) that we started getting around to realizing things like 1) maybe it's not such a good idea for all the vehicles on the road to be burning leaded gasoline and diesel fuel, and 2) maybe we shouldn't allow factories to pump unlimited amounts of noxious fumes into the atmosphere and dump all their toxic waste into the nearest body of water.

 

[dragonpuff]

That's probably very true; I never heard of "ADD" till after my son was in school, starting in '94, and one of his teachers suggested it. I asked for more information about it, and what I heard positively electrified me -- they all just thought I was "lazy" in school, not that I actually have some dysfunction of my brain chemistry! But this also goes a LONG way in explaining why I've had such a tough time, for so many years, trying to get off cigarettes -- cold turkey off cigarettes, I'm a freaking basket case, not just with cravings and ill-temper, but just cannot focus on anything at all, even stuff I really like, like reading!

Andria

When I was in elementary school back in the late 80's or early 90's, I had an attention problem and was evaluated by school personnel for ADHD on account of the fact that my older brother was diagnosed with it. Despite the severity of my attention issues, they said I didn't have ADHD because I didn't meet the criteria and recommended I be evaluated by a doctor outside of school to figure out what it really is (I never ended up getting a definitive diagnosis for that). From what I understand, in the late 90's they started to relax the conditions for diagnosis, saying that a child doesn't have to meet the definition exactly, and if they simply met most of the criteria they would qualify for ADHD. I believe if I were in grade school now I would definitely get diagnosed with it, no question.

I can't help but wonder how much of the push for relaxing the diagnostic standards of ADHD had to do with the development of new medications for it around that same time. Hmm... funny how that works isn't it?

 

[AndriaD]

When I was in elementary school back in the late 80's or early 90's, I had an attention problem and was evaluated by school personnel for ADHD on account of the fact that my older brother was diagnosed with it. Despite the severity of my attention issues, they said I didn't have ADHD because I didn't meet the criteria and recommended I be evaluated by a doctor outside of school to figure out what it really is (I never ended up getting a definitive diagnosis for that). From what I understand, in the late 90's they started to relax the conditions for diagnosis, saying that a child doesn't have to meet the definition exactly, and if they simply met most of the criteria they would qualify for ADHD. I believe if I were in grade school now I would definitely get diagnosed with it, no question.

I can't help but wonder how much of the push for relaxing the diagnostic standards of ADHD had to do with the development of new medications for it around that same time. Hmm... funny how that works isn't it?

Neither my son nor myself has the hyperactivity component, just the attention deficit problem -- inability to focus, difficulty in changing tasks, difficulty with coordinating/prioritizing one's activities in a meaningful way. Once I understood a bit about it, it let me try and address my son's school difficulties a lot more positively than just "do your work!" yelled at him every 30 minutes. I also understood that as he matured, he would learn to cope with it, and find his own ways to deal with it and not let it stand in his way. I never, ever would have permitted anyone to medicate him just for being the proverbial square peg. If he'd been hyperactive to the point that it actively disrupted everything going on around him, my attitude to medication would probably have been very different, but I didn't see a need to get him strung out on powerful drugs as a child. I just tried to find ways to help him learn to cope with it, and transcend it.

Andria

 

[twgbonehead]

I do think there are some valid concerns about a link between vaccines and autism.

Remember that although vaccines have been around for quite a while, the vaccines used today are different and manufactured differently than the ones back when I was a lad. Thimerosal is still a matter of concern for me despite it having the blessing of the CDC. (Or perhaps because of it?) Imagine the financial hit BP would take if a link was actually established, when about 1 in 70 children are diagnosed with some kind of autism spectrum disabilities.

But there are many different environmental issues that could be at work as well. Plastics are very widely used nowadays. Many common plastics release estrogen when they degrade. (Who woulda thunk??) This estrogen in the environment is a suspect in a) earlier onset of puberty in girls, b) fertility issues in men, and c) is fairly strongly linked to certain fish populations dying out, since the estrogen in their water screws up the reproductive process.

Where I'm going is that although the environment in the US is a lot cleaner than it was, there are also new "active ingredients" in the environment that weren't around much in the 70's and before.

 

[AndriaD]

I think this thing about vaccination vs. autism is where Public Health has to be cruelly objective -- yes, it's terrible if a person has some type of cognitive/communication disorder, but still... 1 in 70? And many of those who fall into the "spectrum" are not terribly impaired, just borderline. The vaccines were created to prevent EPIDEMICS -- where substantial percentages of people DIE. Most of the childhood diseases, excepting diptheria and polio, are not terribly dangerous to children, with their hyperactive immune systems, but that is not the case when those diseases are contracted by adults -- my mom had mumps in her 20s, and it nearly killed her. If a whole generation grows up sans vaccines, then at some point in the future, when some children (who also weren't vaccinated) come around those non-immune adults with those childhood diseases, those adults are going to catch those "childhood" diseases, and many will die of them. Measles was as dangerous to Native Americans as smallpox was, because they had no immunity of any kind -- they had never experienced any of those diseases that to Europeans were quite routine, and so, lacking any antibodies, they died by the thousands.

Yes, it's terribly sad if some children develop autism, but autism is not deadly... Contrast that with population-wide epidemics... You can't even compare them.

Andria

 

[Nate760]

I do think there are some valid concerns about a link between vaccines and autism.

Autism is a chromosomal/synaptic disorder. It cannot be caused, or triggered, by any external factor. The people who have it were born with it.

The symptoms typically begin manifesting themselves at around age 3, which happens to coincide with one of the rounds of routine vaccinations. There is absolutely no evidence that one has anything to do with the other. It is a classic case of correlation being mistaken for causation.

 

[dragonpuff]

I think this thing about vaccination vs. autism is where Public Health has to be cruelly objective -- yes, it's terrible if a person has some type of cognitive/communication disorder, but still... 1 in 70? And many of those who fall into the "spectrum" are not terribly impaired, just borderline. The vaccines were created to prevent EPIDEMICS -- where substantial percentages of people DIE. Most of the childhood diseases, excepting diptheria and polio, are not terribly dangerous to children, with their hyperactive immune systems, but that is not the case when those diseases are contracted by adults -- my mom had mumps in her 20s, and it nearly killed her. If a whole generation grows up sans vaccines, then at some point in the future, when some children (who also weren't vaccinated) come around those non-immune adults with those childhood diseases, those adults are going to catch those "childhood" diseases, and many will die of them. Measles was as dangerous to Native Americans as smallpox was, because they had no immunity of any kind -- they had never experienced any of those diseases that to Europeans were quite routine, and so, lacking any antibodies, they died by the thousands.

Yes, it's terribly sad if some children develop autism, but autism is not deadly... Contrast that with population-wide epidemics... You can't even compare them.

Andria

I agree that the current debate over vaccines has been spurred on largely by people who are so young they don't remember any epidemics besides a mild flu. It really is hard to understand why you need a medicine when you and everyone you know never had the disease it prevents. That said, there are mini outbreaks of measles and mumps, among other things, popping up in places where people aren't vaccinating their kids. Hopefully that will be enough to convince most people that they really are necessary.

There's a reason why we don't get the smallpox vaccine anymore, but we are still told to get the MMR. The latter diseases are still fairly easy to catch.

 

[Nate760]

I agree that the current debate over vaccines has been spurred on largely by people who are so young they don't remember any epidemics besides a mild flu.

This is a common thread in a lot of conspiracy-oriented nonsense (or, as the case may be, just plain old nonsense). For example, people who weren't alive during the Apollo program (which I wasn't either, but I was born about a year and a half after it ended) are statistically more likely to believe the lunar landings were all an elaborate hoax.

I've long been struck by the fact that the internet, which places the entire repository of human knowledge at the fingertips of every person with access to it, has somehow managed to make large numbers of people even more stupid and credulous.

 

[twgbonehead]

I agree that the current debate over vaccines has been spurred on largely by people who are so young they don't remember any epidemics besides a mild flu. It really is hard to understand why you need a medicine when you and everyone you know never had the disease it prevents. That said, there are mini outbreaks of measles and mumps, among other things, popping up in places where people aren't vaccinating their kids. Hopefully that will be enough to convince most people that they really are necessary.

There's a reason why we don't get the smallpox vaccine anymore, but we are still told to get the MMR. The latter diseases are still fairly easy to catch.

I hope my comments have not led to a thread hijack, but I do think the issues are relevant.

The CDC rejected the premise that there is a link between Thimerosal and autism based on one study. The cost to Big Pharma, if this study was found to be incorrect, would be huge. Do you trust the study? Do you trust the CDC? After all, we know their "scientific" evaluation of e-cigarettes.

There have been several cases of adults getting polio from contact with their children, who had the polio vaccine. When you get the polio vaccine, apparently your sweat can infect others who are not protected (either because they never got the vaccine, or because they got it a long time ago and it's not working any more). So under the right circumstances, you can get polio from hugging your child.

Not to mention that there are some devastating viruses out there, for which there is no defense. HIV, the many strains of ebola, marhlberg. Geez, in the '80's the big incurable virus people were worried about was herpes. Think about that.

 

[Sirius]

This is a common thread in a lot of conspiracy-oriented nonsense (or, as the case may be, just plain old nonsense). For example, people who weren't alive during the Apollo program (which I wasn't either, but I was born about a year and a half after it ended) are statistically more likely to believe the lunar landings were all an elaborate hoax.

I've long been struck by the fact that the internet, which places the entire repository of human knowledge at the fingertips of every person with access to it, has somehow managed to make large numbers of people even more stupid and credulous.

Nate..I can't believe some people still fall for that after it's been out since 2011 that is was a hoax.
If anyone need further evidence see/ jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/rob-schneider-says-he-has-smoking-gun-on-cdc-vaccine-autism-fraud/

Now are we to get Clive on this vaccine scare too? lol

 

[Nate760]

There have been several cases of adults getting polio from contact with their children, who had the polio vaccine.

Polio is a communicable disease. Autism is a genetic disorder. You're comparing apples and hand grenades.

Edit: as a fun personal note, I almost died from Rubella at age 4, well after I'd been vaccinated against it. That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the vaccine, or vaccinations in general, it just means I was one of the unfortunate 2-5% for whom it didn't produce immunity.

 

[twgbonehead]

Polio is a communicable disease. Autism is a genetic disorder. You're comparing apples and hand grenades.

Please tell the CDC, apparently they aren't aware of that fact:

CDC shares with parents and many others great concern about the number of children with autism spectrum disorders (ASD). We are committed to understanding what causes autism, how it can be prevented, and how it can be recognized and treated as early as possible.

CDC - Concerns About Autism - Vaccine Safety

ETA: and if autism really is a genetic disorder, then it's prevelence, as diagnosed, might indicate that we're being exposed, environmentally, to something that is mutating our chromosomes.

But the main point of this thread is that, not being able to trust the policy-makers due to their hidden interests and biases, as well as willful ignorance of contradictory studies, is something which can be extremely detrimental to the general population.

 

[Nate760]

ETA: and if autism really is a genetic disorder, then it's prevelence, as diagnosed, might indicate that we're being exposed, environmentally, to something that is mutating our chromosomes.

As I mentioned previously, there's no reason to presume autism is more prevalent now than it ever was; the pertinent changes have been in the diagnostic criteria and the level of awareness among medical professionals. In the 21st century, we recognize a whole host of distinct syndromes and conditions that, not too very long ago, used to be classed collectively under labels like "mild mental ......ation."

Edit: as another example, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, females who presented with any sort of psychological symptoms were presumed to be suffering from "hysteria," and the standard clinical remedy was to remove their uterus (which is where the word "hysterectomy" comes from). As medical understanding advanced, and it was realized you can't address mental problems by cutting out a person's organs, the all-encompassing "hysteria" was replaced by dozens or hundreds of different psychological conditions requiring different modes of treatment. The prevalence of those conditions themselves did not increase. The thing that changed was our level of scientific understanding.