6 Misleading Pro-Vaping Arguments We Should Stop Using

[Kent C]

Feel free to think of this as nitpicking,

I do :- ) You're right that air is a big component, and I was considering the contents of the eliquid (which is what is different than just breathing ) where depending on your nic level and how you flavor; but the diluent/blend is 100% PG or VG or a combination of the two - which in my diy is over 50% of the eliquid (ie. 17 parts of a 30 part whole). The nic base is mainly PG or VG along with nic (7 parts) and 6 parts flavoring - which has a base of PG/VG/PGA/H2O - whatever in my case is the best solvent for flavor.

That said - my point is that the long term science on inhalation from PG and VG factory workers - ie Dow Chem studies that have been done since 1947 on a regular basis ALSO includes the air that the workers inhale along with the VG/PG upon which the tests are based - therefore to say 'we don't know the long term' is wrong -- along with the fact that nicotine (not the harmful aspect in smoking) in smokers (also inhaling air) is rather stupid to claim 'we don't know'. We DO know.

 

[Kent C]

and even the smallest percentages of very harmful chemicals (

"very harmful" overstates it. Harm is in the dose - even with arsenic - where there are trace amounts in other substances - water, iirc, for one. And our science has shown there are traces (some not detectable by the instruments used, and in some studies, lower than the air we breathe) amounts of some of those. Acknowledging that some think differently - but the Pierce study on diacetyl shows no association in smoking, with B.O. as even Dr. F has stated.

 

[nicnik]

So basically we inhale very high percentages of air and water and small percentages of PG/VG/flavour/nicotine and even the smallest percentages of very harmful chemicals (i.e. aldehydes, metals, other nasty stuff,...). Am I right?

Yes, but Kent's response to your saying "very harmful chemicals" is important to consider.

 

[nicnik]

I do :- ) You're right that air is a big component, and I was considering the contents of the eliquid (which is what is different than just breathing ) where depending on your nic level and how you flavor; but the diluent/blend is 100% PG or VG or a combination of the two - which in my diy is over 50% of the eliquid (ie. 17 parts of a 30 part whole). The nic base is mainly PG or VG along with nic (7 parts) and 6 parts flavoring - which has a base of PG/VG/PGA/H2O - whatever in my case is the best solvent for flavor.

That said - my point is that the long term science on inhalation from PG and VG factory workers - ie Dow Chem studies that have been done since 1947 on a regular basis ALSO includes the air that the workers inhale along with the VG/PG upon which the tests are based - therefore to say 'we don't know the long term' is wrong -- along with the fact that nicotine (not the harmful aspect in smoking) in smokers (also inhaling air) is rather stupid to claim 'we don't know'. We DO know.

It drives me nuts, that people perceive that we inhale way, way more non-air than we do, because it looks like a huge amount of non-air is exhaled, but it's almost all air, and water that the humectants pg and vg pulled from the air.
It's only nitpicking in relation to the point you were making, which I agree with.

 

[Kent C]

but it's almost all air, and water that the humectants pg and vg pulled from the air.

While it is true that humectants will pull some water out of the air in the inhale, the humectants are more in play in the lungs where water is pulled, so what is exhaled is more water than PG/VG. But it's not "all water vapor" :- ) as some have said, but a big percentage of it is.

 

[Kent C]

It drives me nuts, that people perceive that we inhale way, way more non-air than we do

Here the "we" is too much of a generality. There is a big difference in how much air is inhaled between cloud chasers - air control wide open, and tootle puffers - air is sometimes shut down to just off closed.

 

[rokyo87]

Thank you for explanation @Kent C and @nicnik ... I didn't know this...

 

[nicnik]

While it is true that humectants will pull some water out of the air in the inhale, the humectants are more in play in the lungs where water is pulled, so what is exhaled is more water than PG/VG.

I doubt that's true. When I blow into the the wrong end of cig-a-likes, I get just as much vapor without it having ever entered my lungs or mouth.

 

[nicnik]

Here the "we" is too much of a generality. There is a big difference in how much air is inhaled between cloud chasers - air control wide open, and tootle puffers - air is sometimes shut down to just off closed.

Ok, change that from "way, way more" to "anywhere from way more to way, way more". Fixed, right?

 

[nicnik]

I doubt that's true. When I blow into the the wrong end of cig-a-likes, I get just as much vapor without it having ever entered my lungs or mouth.

I just tried a similar thing with an ego and tank. I pushed the button, and blew into one of the air holes on the tank. Lots of vapor.

 

[Kent C]

I doubt that's true. When I blow into the the wrong end of cig-a-likes, I get just as much vapor without it having ever entered my lungs or mouth.

Doubt it all you want. There is more moisture in your lungs and mouth/throat/bronchial tubes, than the air you use to take a hit.

As for 'blowing into the wrong end of a cigalight', not really sure what you mean, since the wrong end is the battery end. Perhaps there's some "air channel" from the led through the battery chamber to the cartridge. I had one cigalike in June of 2009 for a week - threw it away when the Janty Dura arrived :- )

 

[Kent C]

Ok, change that from "way, way more" to "anywhere from way more to way, way more". Fixed, right?

No. The air flow is really checked down for certain vapors - just enough to create vapor at say from 6-8 watts - ie not much. Whereas cloud chasers have the afc wide open and even draw air from their slightly open mouth as well, in order to get the volume they want when they're showing off. lol.. Big difference.

 

[DC2]

Let's Discuss Angels On A Pin | Dick Puddlecote

The above also links to this piece...
When foot meets bullet - Fergus Online

In my opinion, the most important people vapers need to be influencing are the general public. If we can get them – at least a solid majority of them – on our side, we’ll be in a pretty strong position when it comes to fighting off hostile legislation. If we don’t successfully get our message out to the public we’re basically screwed. We’ll just be another small, irate and slightly weird special interest group that nobody cares about, and if we’re in that position we might as well give up. Persuading ordinary people that vaping is a real alternative to smoking, and that it’ssafe, has to be our number one priority.

Couldn't agree more.

If we want to preserve our freedom to vape we need to convince the ordinary man or woman in the street, and to do that we need to have clear, persuasive, hard-hitting points. That’s going to be pretty difficult if some on our own side insist on trashing them.

And also if so many on our own side refuse to stand up and combat the ignorance.

It saddens me how many vapers I see that refuse to argue the fine points.
Each opportunity lost is another nail in our coffin.

 

[skoony]

When foot meets bullet - Fergus Online
@DC2 In past post's I have said the it"s time to be more proactive in public
spaces indoors and outdoors. The time may have already passed to show the
public what a charade it is to pretend vaping comes anywhere close to being
as obnoxious and annoying and supposedly harmful as cigarette smoke.
If there is one thing I have come to realize is there is a almost universal
paranoia in vapers of the general public's reaction to actually seeing a real live person vaping.
Vapers and the general public get along just fine when allowed to do so. This is a
fact. We did it here in Saint Paul Minnesota and its still happening in local jurisdictions
that have not yet implemented policies that contradict policies already made by
private businesses already.
Eventually the state will revisit the vaping issue and waste vast amounts of time
implementing regulations that will cost vast amounts of money and expanded
bureaucracy to enforce for something that's already been taken care of for free.
Of course the fact that vaping bans are unnecessary as it's citizens have worked
it out on their own will be totally lost on them.
Regards
Mike

 

[Lessifer]

The above also links to this piece...
When foot meets bullet - Fergus Online


Couldn't agree more.


And also if so many on our own side refuse to stand up and combat the ignorance.

It saddens me how many vapers I see that refuse to argue the fine points.
Each opportunity lost is another nail in our coffin.

There has been a movement to be "proactive" about self regulation. It's gotten to the point where vapers are vape shaming, buying into ANTZ lies(or at least advocating that we go along with them so as not to upset non-vapers), and generally overreacting to every news incident. Combating the ignorance... at this point I'd settle for refusing to reinforce the ignorance.

I had a "discussion" on fb yesterday, tried to explain the concept that responding to a battery venting incident, when we have no idea of the actual cause, with "THE INDUSTRY NEEDS TO BE PROACTIVE ABOUT SAFETY" isn't actually helpful. It implies that the industry isn't concerned with safety, when the reality is that devices are about as close to safe as they possibly can be, but we need to educate people about how to be safe with the aspects of vaping that only they have control over.

 

[nicnik]

Doubt it all you want. There is more moisture in your lungs and mouth/throat/bronchial tubes, than the air you use to take a hit.

OK, that makes sense. So I now tried it using a turkey baster (and also a 10ml syringe) to push air through a mini protank air hole (covering the other two holes) to avoid any moisture coming from me. Similar results. Seems to be about the same amount of vapor I get from a puff where I take in about the same 22ml as the baster holds. If I don't inhale, there's a little bit more.

As for 'blowing into the wrong end of a cigalight', not really sure what you mean, since the wrong end is the battery end. Perhaps there's some "air channel" from the led through the battery chamber to the cartridge. I had one cigalike in June of 2009 for a week - threw it away when the Janty Dura arrived :- )

Yeah, there's an air channel.

 

[nicnik]

While it is true that humectants will pull some water out of the air in the inhale, the humectants are more in play in the lungs where water is pulled, so what is exhaled is more water than PG/VG.

98.6 degrees Farenheit is not hot enough for the humectants to produce clouds.

 

[Kent C]

And also if so many on our own side refuse to stand up and combat the ignorance.

And you don't do that by 'avoiding arguments' as the piece suggests, that are true, in order to placate the ANTZ. Regular people can tell the difference if they're told the truth. Those that can't, we aren't going to influence them either way. But those on the fence or looking for more information, can,

Avoiding arguments - or in some way soft soaping the benefits, is what some of the THR people do when they repeat the ANTZ argument of 140,000 deaths from smoking (to show they are not "unreasonable" to their former collegues), or that we should consider the children, or even in some cases, limit the flavors - as if only children like flavors

 

[Kent C]

98.6 degrees Farenheit is not hot enough for the humectants to produce clouds.

So? We were talking about where the humectants pull water - clouds are another issue. At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'll let you do that on your own, unless you can come up with something more coherent.

 

[nicnik]

So? We were talking about where the humectants pull water - clouds are another issue. At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'll let you do that on your own, unless you can come up with something more coherent.

I'm at a loss as to any explanation for getting as much cloud without any of the air coming from me, other than that the bulk of the water is from the air that's inhaled.