Travel and Vaping A Conversation

[blueGrassTubb]

I was reading through the threads recently both here and at Cruise Critic, an online community of cruisers, and was VERY dismayed at Celebrity's policy on ecigs (particularly considering I'm about to go on a 12 Night Arctic Circle cruise in June). It was the strictest of all of the popular cruise lines. Simply put, Celebrity treats them exactly as cigarettes, and you must use them in the very small, confined smoking areas or risk fines charged directly to your room without the ability to challenge them. The same areas that we have all voluntarily left, many of us because of health reasons. Now don't get me wrong: my room in on the back of the ship facing where we have already been, and I'm in no danger of being caught if I vape on my balcony as any vapor will be 200' off the back of the ship by the time I'm done exhaling, but I'd rather not have to go back to my room just to have a quick vape.

So I decided to act in the only way I can: On Thursday night I wrote an in depth letter to contactmichael@celebritycruises.com (Michael Bailey is the CEO of Celebrity) questioning why their policy is so restrictive, telling them exactly why it was too restrictive, and then showed them strong evidence that they are lagging behind other cruise lines, along with links and quotes to the e cigarette policies of 5 other lines that compete directly with Celebrity.

I wasn't sure what to expect. I thought the most likely result would be that it ended in the digital circular file on some intern's computer, or perhaps a cut-and-paste job with a canned response. But what I got was a true surprise. I got a call from Michael Bailey's personal assistant who is in charge of all customer service emails received at that address, and we had a fairly long and in depth conversation about the issue. She is his personal filter. If she deems it worthy, it gets escalated directly to his desk, if not, she sends it to the interns to cut and paste away about how they appreciate our having contacted them . . .

She assured me that she was going to deliver my letter to his attention personally, and that she was also going to insure that the internal people in charge of setting policy would have my letter in front of them as a priority. She said there has been informal talks of revisiting their vaping policy, but that there wasn't enough of a push to get it through. She also said that my letter was an impetus to make it a priority of hers to do whatever she can in her capacity to force the issue.

The key is to stay calm and write well thought, well documented prose. I'm assuming that it will take months for anything to change (if anything is to change at all), but being as cruise lines are in a cut throat business and that all cruise lines are very customer oriented, the more we all write in, the better chances we have of changing policy in our favor.

I'll cut and paste what I wrote. I implore you all to do the same. Nothing is guaranteed, but the more people who write in with these concerns, the faster the issue will escalate and they will be forced to do something.

Hello,I'd like to write in with a suggestion about your current policy on using electronic cigarettes (personal vaporizers) on board.


As I'm sure you're aware, the use of personal vaporizers is on the rise due to many people trying mightily to quit smoking traditional cigarettes because of the many health problems associated with cigarette smoking. I myself suffered a heart attack at the ripe old age of 33 and was forced to find an alternative so that I might have a better chance of living a long, fulfilling life. The only thing that allowed me to quit using traditional cigarettes was by switching to a personal vaporizer (AKA electronic cigarettes). Your current smoking policy positively equates vaping with smoking, as if there is no substantive difference, and forces those of us who vape to return to the designated smoking sections and the smoke that has threatened our health that we've tried to escape when we quit smoking cigarettes.


I understand why there would be separate sections for smoking: it's been proven over and again that it's harmful to both those who use them and those who are around them. Vaping, however, poses no such threat, nor does it have any of the many side effects of smoking traditional cigarettes such as foul odors, etc.


I would implore you to reconsider your vaping policies so that those of us who have successfully escaped the dangers of smoking traditional cigarettes might not be forced to once again be directly exposed to them. What we as vapers have done for our own health is being negated by policies driven by a lack of information regarding the very real differences between vaping and smoking.


I'm not suggesting that we vapers ought to be allowed to vape anywhere on the ship at any time. There absolutely ought to be areas where vaping is off limits such as dining areas, the spa area, etc. But not allowing us to use our veranda for vaping, for instance, and instead forcing us to congregate in small areas with smokers of traditional cigarettes, undoes all of the hard work we have done for ourselves, for very little reason, and no tangible benefit. With vaping there are no foul odors to "clean" and no harmful secondary effects that might adversely affect other passengers. It's certainly far less harmful than forcing vapers to be directly exposed to the smoke of traditional cigarettes.


Also, there is precedent for vaping on board ships of other cruise lines. Princess Cruise Lines, for instance, in their rules and regulations states that,


“The use of electronic cigarettes is permitted in all areas onboard with the exception of dining areas and the Princess Theater. However, should a fellow passenger in the vicinity feel inconvenienced and complain, even after being told the difference between electronic cigarettes and real cigarettes, we will ask the passenger to refrain from smoking the electronic cigarette.”


Norwegian Cruise Lines (NCL) has a policy which shows that they have actively considered the use of personal vaporizers as an activity separate from smoking:


"We want you to be comfortable on board, so public areas throughout all our ships are smoke-free. If you smoke regular or electronic cigarettes, you can do so on your balcony, in the casino or in the Cigar Bar (where available). If you prefer pipes or cigars, you can smoke in the Cigar Bar or designated smoking lounge. Also, you can smoke cigarettes, pipes and cigars outside on open decks (just not around food venues, sports decks, kids’ pool areas and other designated nonsmoking areas)."


They continue with a small note specifically directed at vapers: "Electronic cigarettes cannot be used in public areas where there is a No Smoking policy in force[.]"


Holland America, too, has a policy that aligns with having gathered the necessary information to adequately address the use of personal vaporizers on board their ships. In their rules and regulations it states:


"For the comfort of all of our guests, all staterooms (cabins), showrooms and most other indoor areas are designated non-smoking. While smoking is not permitted in staterooms, guests are allowed to smoke on stateroom verandahs. Smoking is also permitted on certain other designated, outside decks. The designated smoking areas for all ships are as follows unless otherwise noted.


• Stateroom verandahs
• Casino (Active players only)
• Seaview Bar
• Outside Decks
• Sports Deck
• Observation Deck (ms Prinsendam, ms Eurodam, ms Nieuw Amsterdam, ms Noordam, ms Oosterdam, ms Westerdam, and ms Zuiderdam only)


Cigar and pipe smoking is not allowed anywhere inside the ship; it is only permitted on the outside decks where smoking is otherwise allowed and on stateroom verandahs. Electronic cigarettes are permitted in staterooms but not in other public areas of the ship other than on outside decks designated as smoking areas."


Holland America even goes so far as to allow the use of personal vaporizers in staterooms, as well as in many other places on the ship.


Costa too has a less restrictive policy with electronic cigarettes stating "Electronic cigarettes may only be used cabins and in the “Cigar Lounge” area", and continues to state that private balconies are also acceptable places.


Cunard also separates smoking from vaping and has acted accordingly. While one may not use a personal vaporizer in any public areas other than those designated as smoking areas, they have amended the policy to allow vapers to use electronic cigarettes both in their staterooms and private verandas.


And these examples are but a few which reflect the willingness of other cruise lines to differentiate their policies based on the differences between smoking and vaping.


These more permissive approaches seem far more reasonable than forcing non-smokers to congregate in close proximity to smokers in very small areas of the ship, especially since the vast majority of vapers actively quit smoking cigarettes for health reasons. Even a rule with more restrictions than those on other lines, such as only allowing the use of personal vaporizers in open-air areas of the ship, would be more reasonable than your current policy of forcefully putting vapers back in the position of endangering our health. Even the very small step of allowing the use of personal vaporizers on stateroom verandas would be a drastic improvement. Equivocally categorizing the use of personal vaporizers with smoking tobacco shows very little regard for the health of your passengers who have made the affirmative decision to quit smoking, and reflects poorly on your business practices due to the active attempt at avoiding the issue altogether. This kind of policy is just the same as forcing an alcoholic who might want to enjoy a Virgin Strawberry Daiquiri to go and enjoy his drink in a bar where he would be exposed to all of the things that he has actively avoided for his own health. It simply doesn’t make sense and reveals a complete lack of regard for a great many of your passengers by refusing to gather the information necessary in order to make a policy in line with the reality of what vaping is.


My upcoming cruise to the Arctic Circle will be my third cruise on Celebrity in the last decade, and the second extended European cruise aboard the Constellation in the last three years. I truly enjoy Celebrity and the services you provide. I have never had anything but a wonderful time. That said, if Celebrity doesn’t reconsider and appropriately alter its very restrictive policy on vaping which forces non-smokers once again to expose ourselves to the very real dangers of smoking as if we were smoking, I’m afraid it will be my last cruise with you in lieu of a cruise line with policies based on the best current information about the use of personal vaporizers rather than simply equating it with an activity that only vaguely resembles another.


Sincerely,
Xxx Xxx

Again, the key is to write well. Rants about how they rules are ....e will get you escalated directly to the trash can. Stay on topic, and use some form of documentation for your claims. Anecdotes help as well, especially if you explain why you quit smoking and why being forced to congregate with smokers is a direct threat to your health. But most of all be courteous and respectful.

I followed up today, after having asked if it would be okay to send some links to scientific literature concerning vapor, with an email to the latest study stating emphatically and succinctly that there are no hazards for those who experience vapor involuntarily. She again thanked me and told me that she'd let me know if there was something else I could do.

 

[Fenway75]

Fantastic job. Even if they don't change their policy, they'll have been forced to confront both the actual science the FDA is conveniently choosing to ignore and, more importantly, the opinion of a repeat customer. It's amazing what a well-worded letter can accomplish, even in this day and age. I only wish more vapers took your approach over the 'come and take my mod, Persians!' bluster I see all too often on other 'vaping in public' threads.

Two big thumbs-up!

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Fantastic job. Even if they don't change their policy, they'll have been forced to confront both the actual science the FDA is conveniently choosing to ignore and, more importantly, the opinion of a repeat customer. It's amazing what a well-worded letter can accomplish, even in this day and age. I only wish more vapers took your approach over the 'come and take my mod, Persians!' bluster I see all too often on other 'vaping in public' threads.

Two big thumbs-up!

Much appre....ated!

I was a literature student for far too long between undergraduate and graduate school. I taught writing at the university level for many years. I am no longer capable of turning out a pile of garbage, even if I'm trying to.

Writing is a very powerful tool if used correctly. It can be very effective. Pen, sword, etc.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

And here is my follow up:

I very much appreciate your recent phone call to assure me that my previous email concerning the use of personal vaporizers onboard Celebrity ships would be read by the "right" people.


When we spoke, I asked whether providing any scientific information about e-cigarettes might be appropriate or helpful. Here is a link to a very recent study performed by the Department of Environmental and Occupational Health, School of Public Health, Drexel University.


BMC Public Health | Full text | Peering through the mist: systematic review of what the chemistry of contaminants in electronic cigarettes tells us about health risks


There is, as one might expect, a lot of scientific jargon and explanation of procedures, but here are some the basic conclusions of the study as it pertains to second-hand exposure:




"Even when compared to workplace standards for involuntary exposures, and using several conservative (erring on the side of caution) assumptions, the exposures from using e-cigarettes fall well below the threshold for concern for compounds with known toxicity. That is, even ignoring the benefits of e-cigarette use and the fact that the exposure is actively chosen, and even comparing to the levels that are considered unacceptable to people who are not benefiting from the exposure and do not want it, the exposures would not generate concern or call for remedial action."


"By the standards of occupational hygiene, current data do not indicate that exposures to vapers from contaminants in electronic cigarettes warrant a concern. There are no known toxicological synergies among compounds in the aerosol, and mixture of the contaminants does not pose a risk to health."


"The cautions about propylene glycol and glycerin apply only to the exposure experienced by the vapers themselves. Exposure of bystanders to the listed ingredients, let alone the contaminants, does not warrant a concern as the exposure is likely to be orders of magnitude lower than exposure experienced by vapers."




The study points out, accurately, the the main ingredient used as a base to carry both the nicotine and flavors in eLiquid is propylene glycol and that it is the exact same ingredient used in theatrical fog machines (surely Celebrity has used those at some pont or another), and that only after extreme, continuous, overly long exposure might there be some kind of side effects to a second hand bystander, but the kinds of exposures needed are unrealistic (they would have to breath a vaper's exhale directly for long periods of time, measured in days, in order to perhaps suffer from any symptoms).


I hope this resource is helpful to you. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. I'd be glad to answer any questions that you might have. If you could send a quick reply to confirm that you've received this, I'd greatly appreciate it.


Sincerely,
Xxxx Xxxx

I only included one particular study because 1) it's an authoritative study done by a university public health department (generally places where you find the worst kind of health ninnies who seek to impose strict rules on anything they dislike for any reason at all), and it's very recent. I left the line open to provide her with more information if she needed it (and certainly there is plenty available).

 

[LondonGirl]

Very well-written, and your request to be allowed to vape in non-enclosed spaces is very reasonable. I'm glad they are listening, and hope they will consider a more appropriate policy as a result.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Very well-written, and your request to be allowed to vape in non-enclosed spaces is very reasonable. I'm glad they are listening, and hope they will consider a more appropriate policy as a result.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I fear my cruise is too close (June 14 departure) to see any policy changes. That said, if they really expect that I'm going to do all of my vaping (or any of it) in a designated smoking section of the ship (of which there are only a small handful, all very small and tucked away in corners) they're going to be very disappointed. Even my wife, a rule follower by nature, said they can kiss her ( | ) if they expect me, a heart attack victim, to be forced to stand in a very congested, smoky smoking section in order to have a quick vape.

 

[GMayberry]

Subscribing to this one! Very well written! I may amend this and send to Carnival as well. I didn't have any issues on our last cruise, but I was also pretty stealthy the entire time. I would much rather know that what I am doing falls within their guidelines.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Subscribing to this one! Very well written! I may amend this and send to Carnival as well. I didn't have any issues on our last cruise, but I was also pretty stealthy the entire time. I would much rather know that what I am doing falls within their guidelines.

Feel free to use it to your heart's content!

 

[Ms.Cruzer]

As a frequent Celebrity cruiser, and a recent non-smoker, I applaud you and thank you for doing this. Although I don't have the gift you do for writing, I will be glad to follow up with a letter as well. (BTW - his name is spelled Bayley) Like you, I fully intend to vape on my balcony but it would be great if that were allowed elsewhere. I have over 45 days booked on X over the next year or so and I have no desire to go to the smoking areas EVER again on their ships. I met some great people there but it was such a hassle and the location of our cabin always depended on the proximity to one of those areas. Ugh.

I would recommend the sunset bar to you though. One side of the bar is smoking but the other is not and all of it is open air. You would probably be able to find a place to sit and enjoy the view without being amidst the smoke. Good luck, happy cruising and vaping. Two of my favorite things!

 

[blueGrassTubb]

As a frequent Celebrity cruiser, and a recent non-smoker, I applaud you and thank you for doing this. Although I don't have the gift you do for writing, I will be glad to follow up with a letter as well. (BTW - his name is spelled Bayley) Like you, I fully intend to vape on my balcony but it would be great if that were allowed elsewhere. I have over 45 days booked on X over the next year or so and I have no desire to go to the smoking areas EVER again on their ships. I met some great people there but it was such a hassle and the location of our cabin always depended on the proximity to one of those areas. Ugh.

I would recommend the sunset bar to you though. One side of the bar is smoking but the other is not and all of it is open air. You would probably be able to find a place to sit and enjoy the view without being amidst the smoke. Good luck, happy cruising and vaping. Two of my favorite things!

Thanks!

Please write to them. It can only help.

I'm not likely to spend too much time on open air decks on this cruise. It's in the arctic circle and despite being June, it's gonna be chilly!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk