A humble request and plea

[TheLordWinter]

Guys, please be careful. I am thankful for each and every last vendor here, even if I haven't and may never order from you. Without you ALL of you, these products would never have become as popular as they are, and would be gone from the American market by now for lack of someone to defend them in court.

But, some of you are being careless, even reckless.

Cease and Desist letters

We all know how fanatically the FDA is trying to persecute the e-cig community. Please don't leave the door wide open for them. I can only speak for myself, but I believe that all would agree that we want to be able to purchase your products for years to come. Please exercise EXTREME caution in your advertising and avoid any claims that might be even remotely suspect (in the FDA's view).

 

[banjo]

The suppliers noted only care about $$$$ So I'm pretty sure that your plea for a little sanity and common sense is falling on deaf ears......

 

[TheLordWinter]

While that MAY be true, I'd rather not let this turn into a flame war with open bashing of the retailers, so please refrain from disparaging comments.

 

[atavanhalen]

While that MAY be true, I'd rather not let this turn into a flame war with open bashing of the retailers, so please refrain from disparaging comments.

As long as suppliers are not advertising vaping as a drug delivery device then they should be fine in this thread but if they do make quit smoking claims then they should be called out. vaping is an alternative to smoking and should be treated as such. This is a big part of what the njoy court case is about. Any supplier doing this is only inflicting harm to our cause.

 

[karmatized]

we cant win, let me explain. For example i have a nicotine safety link on my site. It could be argued that its a drug based on that alone because i speak about the actual substance nicotine and not a tobacco leaf. But at the same time since im selling a tobacco based product i am required to provide this type of thing. Or you face being sued for negligence.

This all comes down to the court case. Which will define it one way or another.

If we loose the case this industry dies. If we win then all juice sellers will carry juice from a FDA certified lab/vendor or all the current vendors will need to quite litirally put up stainless steel walls, install a venting system, hire a person for QA have testing done............ Either way, stock up. Prices will go up by at least 300%.

We know the truth about how this product has helped people, But without it on paper for 20 years they dont want to hear it.

 

[Bahnzo]

That might be true, but what have you, as a vendor, done about it?

It's time for vendors to realize that it's ultimately up to you to make more of an effort to combat this. You are the ones making a profit from this industry, but I don't see anything from any of you about what you've done to help. Vendors need to organize and have a collective voice like any other industry. That's right, you need a lobbying group.

It's easy to sit here and complain about the FDA and the government. But all you vendors need to realize that you cannot continue to operate as you have for months or years before. As an industry, you need to band together and spend some of those profits you make from us to be able to continue in business for the coming years.

 

[karmatized]

You must remember this is not a panel of elected officials who vote, this is a government funded organization that makes its own decision. Laws are what you use to tame them.

There are a lot of people behind the scenes as we speak working on these things, but as these forums im sure are trolled by the FDA most dont speak about it publicly.

 

[Teach]

We must also consider that there are only a handful of 'large' ecig companies. Most of our suppliers are 'Mom & Pop' buisnesses with limited profit. The object of their business is to pay the bills... I don't believe that many are getting rich.

It appears that, no matter the outcome of the case, the supply side of the industry will go through a shake-out with only the more stable buisnesses surviving. We can hope that the ones that survive will be the ones that provide the best product and service.

It does raise the question of impact on the 'modding' industry. If the juice side is regulated, will the hardware side be also?

 

[karmatized]

doubtful.

 

[Teach]

doubtful.

Of....?

 

[karmatized]

no i mean i doubt hardware sales will be regulated when everything is said and done.

 

[Teach]

I see what you mean and I agree.... unless they can figure out how to block the attys by linking them to a drug delivery device. No practical use around the house for those. They can't block all the parts for DIY attys, but what a pain in the .... that would be.

 

[AngusATAT]

I'd actually like to thank the suppliers we have here on the ECF. Not only are they aware of these issues, many of them share the same concerns that we do, and keep the kinds of statements that will cause issues with the FDA off of their sites. And many of them put in a lot of hard work to fight for the rest of us.

We have a lot of very good people who aren't just out to make a buck, but really care about the cause and our community. It makes me very glad that I buy from them, and not the others who are making it hard for everyone in the name of the Almighty Dollar.

 

[unsure]

Its in everyone's interest to keep government out of this business!!!

 

[BuzzKill]

The hardware side will be unaffected, I can sell an atomizer as a aroma therapy heater or whatever just change them name and use and it is no longer banned .

Juice on the other hand is an issue. That reason alone is why we have never sold it .

 

[alnjessie]

The FDA only wants their hands in it, not for safety for the public....but because they aren't getting the profit off of it.....all the petitions in the world will not help. I'm not sayin to not try and stand up and have a voice but they (The GOV) pretty much do what they want which is to keep padding their own pockets so they can live high on the hog and keep everyone else without a chance and broke. I was only able to quit analog ciggs with the e-cigg, nothing else worked. The said 4000 chemicals that are in ciggs to me is way to much gambling to me for my life's sake. This to me is a lot healthier alternative and I enjoy it, I don't like patches or the gum, and can't take chantix (if you listen to the possible side effects for chantix it's more dangerous than vaping) but none of them should be considered a quit smoking remedy because if you enjoy nicotene you find a way to get it...just hopefully healthier version. I know and the FDA knows that vaping is way more healthier than analog ciggs, if there were any argument at all is that the amount of nicotene in a bottle was a confirmed amount, and that it was done in sanitary conditions.

 

[DWTaylor]

I don't know about the other Custom Juice companies out there, but I know that I would love to get a clean room, a QA guy and a licensed Chemist on staff to test every batch we make.
The only things that keep that is the profits, I personally haven't been able to get a paycheck to myself yet alone pay for all the others. I do everything I can to keep it safe. Just like all the others my stuff is cleaned for every bottle made. I keep everything to the point of food safety guidelines.
I would love to have one of the 100k labs with 3 people mixing with me and the QA guy in an office on his rear end until they feel like coming out a take 1 out 100 bottles in to see if it is safe.
I am not sure that any of us out there can afford that. So I understand were everyone is worried about it, but if ya want that I sorry to say in most cases DeKang is your best bet.
I have always been honest to my customers, I have an old post here somewhere that states I make my juices at my desk after sanitizing all surfaces and all items that will be near your juice. I wash all items and boil all items that come near any juices, other then the bottles and they are washed 1 time when I get them and then 1 hour before they are filled.
I am sorry but I don't see any of the smaller places that make the custom juices having clean rooms/ sterile rooms. the cost to test every batch like they say is a hard one to do just cause every 30ml bottle I make is a batch I don't make 2 gallons or more for a 30ml order.
I am sure I will get flamed but please if ya use a custom juice maker. DYI flavor shack. tasty vaper
to name a few, the other might have the clean rooms they might even get each batch tested I don't know cause I am working on my company not theirs but there is a good chance that all we are doing is keeping it as safe as we can.
DW

 

[FrozenNorth]

I am with DW, I work from my own small makeshift lab, and I would love to be able to make these liquids in a lab, but that is unrealistic. I work all day in a chemistry lab, and I do my best to keep all of the procedures at home the same as I would in the lab, but unlike the chemistry lab I work in, I have limited resources. I have the equipment at work to test my products, but like DW said to test each small batch I make would take forever, not to mention the fact that it would take me months just to work up a method for testing each flavor since each has different molecules that are going to interact and make things more complicated. I run a small company with only a few people that help me out from time to time, and I mainly started this business to provide my hometown with an alternative to cigarettes. I have spent more money on equipment for my lab, than I have made by far, and I have to continue working my 9-5 just to keep this company afloat. Plain and simple the FDA is simply looking for a payoff and unfortunately most of us are too small to give them what they want, and the sad truth is even with people making these e-liquids in small home labs, on their desk, or in their kitchen, this still is a far better means of getting your daily nic fix than puffing away on a cigarette, yet the FDA refuses to help us!

 

[5cardstud]

we cant win, let me explain. For example i have a nicotine safety link on my site. It could be argued that its a drug based on that alone because i speak about the actual substance nicotine and not a tobacco leaf. But at the same time since im selling a tobacco based product i am required to provide this type of thing. Or you face being sued for negligence.

This all comes down to the court case. Which will define it one way or another.

If we loose the case this industry dies. If we win then all juice sellers will carry juice from a FDA certified lab/vendor or all the current vendors will need to quite litirally put up stainless steel walls, install a venting system, hire a person for QA have testing done............ Either way, stock up. Prices will go up by at least 300%.

We know the truth about how this product has helped people, But without it on paper for 20 years they dont want to hear it.

I don't believe it will die but it will for sure move into the black market and prices will go up drastically. Nice of the FDA to be so accommodating to the black marketers.

 

[alnjessie]

I don't feel that there should even have to be labs etc.to make it. I do care about cleanliness though. Not sterile but you don't want to envision a home with flies...nasty garbage everywhere, roaches,etc fixing you up a batch lol. And as far as tested I believe that most who have been making up batches for some time have it pretty close to what it should be. My earlier post was implying IF the FDA even had an argument what it could be, not me personally though. Even though they will probaly make this a nightmare for everyone...suppliers to buyers...not sure what any of us could do to stop them. It's crazy because there are things on the market now that are way more dangerous than vaping could ever be, and the fact that any person can get anything and turn into a dangerous thing,one example is alcohol is legal to buy at the ABC store but once that person buys it you can't stop them from getting alcohol poison from over drinking, or from killing someone drinking and driving etc. And the makers of alcohol companies don't even have to put disclaimers on there stuff to warn you, yet it's something that actually causes people to DIE everyday. I know this is far off from making and selling vaping stuff because the nicotene invloved...but my dad is a bee keeper and sells honey from his bees. What they have to do is get certified (very small fee) to show that they know how to do what they are doing and have the place where honey will be worked inspected and know that they could be checked on a later moments to make sure everything is still the way it should be.The FDA doesn't care about nothing but money...not all the lives that could be saved or people who don't have to get cancer, COPD, etc from quitting analog ciggs, Just too bad there aren't any good lawyers on here that enjoy vaping that could help out...