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A new PG alternative?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by wetclay, Sep 27, 2019.

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  1. wetclay

    wetclay Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    UAE
    Was checking out chemnovatic website and noticed they list PDO, a PG alternative. They claim it has better properties; viscosity, taste ...etc.
    PDO is 1,3 propandiol. PG is 1,2 propanediol. So they are quite related compounds.
    Didn't find much info online, but it is listed as GRAS.
    Wondering if anybody tried it or can add any info?
    Natural Pure Propylene Glycol | CHEMNOVATIC
     
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  2. jusu

    jusu Full Member

    Jul 18, 2018
    I have used PDO for more than a year on my mixes, it's not as harsh as standard PG but they share almost the same properties. In terms of flavor, for a high %, PDO can be noticeable (i can't compare it to PG because i haven't used PG at a high %). The main drawback is the price, double that of standard PG. I still have 1/3 of a bottle left, and when it's over i will probably restock it.

    It's all subjective, and what works for me probably won't work for you, if you were near me i would give you some to try it out and find out for yourself.
     
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  3. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
    Interesting, thanks for sharing. Apparently it may be safer than PG for both people and rats. :)

    Physical and chemical assessment of 1,3 Propanediol as a potential substitute of propylene glycol in refill liquid for electronic cigarettes

    "To sum-up, our results indicate that:
    • PDO is doubtless stable upon heating when EC are used in recommended conditions (250 °C).

    • PDO seems to have better thermal behavior showing less thermal decomposition by-products compared to PG and VG.

    • PDO seems to give to nicotine a more basic environment ensuring a 100% free base nicotine form, although once in the aerosol it could return to its protonated state.

    • PDO shows globally better flavoring properties than VG and PG, except for the case of the two terpenes limonene and menthol.

    • PDO seems to induce quite similar aerodynamic properties compared to usual aerosol features generated by the use of PG + VG refill liquid in electronic cigarettes."
    Hmm... Sounds too good to be true? Very interesting, indeed.

    Inhalation toxicity of 1,3-propanediol in the rat. - PubMed - NCBI

    Abstract
    "1,3-Propanediol (504-63-2) was studied to determine the potential effects following repeated inhalation exposures to rats. Rats were exposed 6 hr/day, 5 days/wk for 2 wk (9 exposures) to vapor or vapor/aerosol mixtures of either 0, 41, 650, or 1800 mg 1,3-propanediol/m(3).

    The highest concentration tested, 1800 mg/m(3), which was the highest concentration that could practically be generated, was the no-observed-effect level (NOEL) for this study. 1,3-Propanediol does not appear to pose a significant hazard via inhalation of either the vapor or a vapor/aerosol mixture."

    ETA: Paging @mikepetro ! Any thoughts?
     
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  4. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
    Do you use it alone or do you mix it with VG?

    Chemnovatic is a very reputable brand and they make fantastic nicotine base.

    This is what our resident chemist Kurt had to say about it years ago:

    Corn Glycerin question.
     
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  5. jusu

    jusu Full Member

    Jul 18, 2018
    I have mixed it at 100% PDO for testing in a AIO that i have, normally i mix depending on the atomizer i'm using at the time, usually at 60/40 VG.

    Yes, Chemnovatic it's a great brand, my favorite VG so far is from Chemnovatic, and all my nicotine bases are from them.

    Thanks for the link!
     
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  6. wetclay

    wetclay Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    UAE
    All sounds good! less harsh, less drying and safer if not as safe as PG.
    Glad I asked. Would probably give it a go.
    :)Few more questions:
    Where do buy it from? chemnovatic's is a b2b platform only
    Did you happen to mix menthol/lemon/citrus? Feedback?
    at 100% is it a stealthy vape like what you expect with PG?
    TIA
     
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  7. jusu

    jusu Full Member

    Jul 18, 2018
    I live in Portugal and i have a store nearby that stock Chemnovatic products

    Yes, i'm most inclined to fresher flavors, and PDO carry them fantastically.

    A word of warning, i don't know how a high % PDO bakery mix would hold up, the flavor of the PDO is noticeable, it's masked using fresher flavors though.

    It doesn't produce as much vapor as with a VG mix, but still produces a small amount of it, i wouldn't recommend holding your breath as you vape to get rid of the vapor, but to each his own.

    If you can get a hold of it i'd say for you to try it out.

    All the best,
    jusu.
     
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  8. wetclay

    wetclay Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    UAE
    One last Q.
    How does it taste like? sweat? bitter?chemical?

    In some situations, blowing less vapor is just more appropriate. I use high PG for that. Dries my mouth and is harsh. PDO might be the fix.
    Will find a way to get hold of it.
     
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  9. BrotherBob

    BrotherBob ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Dec 24, 2014
    Sunnyvale,CA,USA
    Might like to read ELR. Their search function is not very good so you will have to use the "option" feature shown below and submit:
    upload_2019-9-27_8-54-20.png
     
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  10. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
    I have the same problem. Couldn't find it locally (in the US). I could probably try to order it directly from Chemnovatic? But I'm afraid that shipping cost will be ten times higher than the price of a bottle of of PDO. ;)
     
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  11. jusu

    jusu Full Member

    Jul 18, 2018
    Mildly sweet, astringent, medicinal, slightly hot and tenacious. The taste is only present at a high %

    I'm not the best at describing a flavor, i hope you get an idea.
     
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  12. wetclay

    wetclay Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 4, 2010
    UAE
    That is if you manage to convince chemnovatic to send you a sample.
    Dupont seems to be the sole/dominant manufacturer. Reassuring in a way.
    Your best bet is up north. And yes, it's almost double the price of PG.
    Vaping Dilutor PDO - 1,3 Propanediol | DIY eJuice
    Edit: out of stock
     
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  13. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
    Thanks! And..... out of stock. :lol:

    Maybe I'll try to convince one of our Chemnovatic nicotine vendors to stock PDO?
     
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  14. vaper1960

    vaper1960 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2019
    California, US
    I was very excited until someone mentioned GMO stuff... might have to pass on this one.
     
  15. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    None whatsoever. It is too new for any "independent and credible" studies to have been done on inhalation of the product.

    It might be better than pg, it might not.

    Chemnovatic is a very reputable company, so I give them their due credit. However every company that analyzes their own product will always put their best foot forward, its only natural. I would love to see Dr. F weigh in on it.
     
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  16. Brewdawg1181

    Brewdawg1181 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 30, 2017
    Metro ATL
    BTW, for those of you interested. I haven't seen it mentioned here, but Nic River carries Chemnovatic nic, so it might be worth a call to see if they'd get it for you.
     
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  17. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
    So does Vapers Tek, I believe.
     
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  18. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
    They had me at better thermal behavior. :)

    Thanks, Mike! And it's not that new. It's been around in Europe and Canada for a while. For some reason it's not available here.
     
  19. Vapntime

    Vapntime Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 22, 2013
    Brisbane, Australia
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  20. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    SoCal
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