Actual dangers?

[Tonythefiddler]

Hey, first off I agree that if smokers can switch to snus/smokeless it IS better than cigarettes, that's a fact. But what's with people grouping them in with e-cigs, which have no tobacco and carcinogens? We have this amazing way to quit without ingesting any bad chemicals and I see people stopping it to ingest something without many studies, yes I've seen a few that show it's less harmful but it's STILL TOBACCO!! Why not stick to what we know is safe with vaping, aside of course if it doesn't do it for some people, but I still think they should move towards being tobacco free. I've seen people with absolutely disgusting teeth from dipping, and know that there are in fact carcinogens in tobacco regardless of how you take it and however low the studies say the risk is. Also it seems like grouping snus in with vaping makes vaping look bad, it is not tobacco and it does not have the same carcinogens. Anyway just wanted to put this out there, if anyone has studies/articles that may change my mind send em over but as of now i'm anti- any tobacco and pro-vaping to save lives. thanks

PS here's the article from cancer.org. i'd trust this site a lot more than studies which may have been done by manufacturers of snus... I'll stick to vaping thanks

Harmful health effects of smokeless tobacco include:
•Mouth, tongue, cheek, gum, and throat cancer
•Cancer in the esophagus (the swallowing tube that goes from your mouth to your stomach)
•Stomach cancer
•Pancreatic cancer
• Possible increase in risk of heart disease, heart attacks, and stroke
• Addiction to nicotine (which can lead to smoking)
• Leukoplakia (white sores in the mouth that can become cancer)
• Receding gums (gums slowly shrink from around the teeth) and gum disease (gingivitis)
• Bone loss around the roots of the teeth
• Abrasion (scratching and wearing down) of teeth
• Cavities and tooth decay
• Tooth loss
• Stained and discolored teeth
• Bad breath

Found out more, even from the Swedish studies people like to cite:
In a recently published prospective cohort study, comprising more than 10 000 Norwegian men, the relationship between the use of smokeless tobacco (snus and chewing tobacco) and the risk of cancer of pancreas and other organs, such as oral cavity/pharynx, esophagus, stomach, lung, kidney or bladder was studied. The authors found that snus use was associated with significant increase in the risk of pancreatic cancer. The increase in risk was only seen among ever-users of snus who were smokers at the start of the study, 40 years earlier. Snus use was, however, not associated with increases in risk of cancer of the oral cavity/pharynx, esophagus, stomach, lung, kidney or bladder (Boffetta et al., 2005).

 

[hittman]

First let me say that I use snus and vape. I'm a little tired and don't really feel like posting links. It is proven that Swedish snus is 90% safer than smoking. To be honest I don't know for sure that vaping flavored liquids is that safe but I do it anyway. I don't think vaping has been around long enough to determine the long term affects but I still figure it's quite a bit safer than smoking. If you take a look at science.howstuffworks it says that occurrences of pancreatic cancer in snus users is 9 out of 100,000 and smokers is 13 out of 100,000. Honestly with numbers like that can they really say that either one is a major contributor? Perhaps Roth or stubby will pop in with some links. They are much better than I am at that. I've read a lot but don't usually save links. As far as the mouth issues you've mentioned, snus is pasteurized and not fermented and there is no sugar in it. I've used snus for over four years and have never had any mouth sores or anything like that like I've heard about dip users having. As far as "addiction to nicotine", isn't that why we're all on this forum? Oh and I haven't had a cavity in years. I think if people brush and floss like they are supposed to that many of the problems blamed on smokeless would be minimal. I brush three times and floss every day. My teeth are whiter and in much better shape than they ever were when I smoked.

 

[firechick]

I'm pretty tired myself. I'm also tired of folks reading a couple of things and then coming to the smokeless forum to teach us the error of our ways and ride us about vapers being lumped in with filthy tobacco users. The increased risk of pancreatic cancer is so small as to be almost non-existent, and the subjects had also been smokers in the past. It's quite possible that smoking increased their chances of getting it. That also holds true of oral and esophageal cancers. Snus has been in use in Europe for 200+ years without any significant increase in disease.

Vaping has been around for about a decade, and yet some vapers insist that it is absolutely "harmless". We don't know that, and we won't know for many years. Cancer.org is touting questionable studies about AMERICAN smokeless tobacco, much like the antz advocates quote "science" showing that vaping is harmful. I don't understand how some people will reject science from one anti organization but accept it wholeheartedly from another. Snus is not manufactured the same way that Skoal is. The fermentation of tobacco produces nitrosamines that can contribute to cancer. These are some of the same "chemicals" that the FDA found in their testing of eliquid. They found it in the same levels as pharma patches and gum. There is no link from snus to oral, esophageal, or gastric cancers. There is no link to tooth loss or other oral medical issues.

If it concerns you that you are being lumped together with tobacco users, relax. Most vapers on this forum don't even know we exist. John Q public is even less aware that vaping and the use of oral tobacco are related. No one seeing a cloud from your PV is going to think you are "dipping". The general public is far more likely to equate you with a smoker than a snus user.

 

[Guttermouth]

Hey, first off I agree that if smokers can switch to snus/smokeless it IS better than cigarettes, that's a fact. But what's with people grouping them in with e-cigs, which have no tobacco and carcinogens?

they are grouped together as a total solution to the smoking cessation problem as a "reduced harm" alternative to cigarettes.There are other habit forming and psychoactive agents at work in cigarettes and it has been proven that some people are more dependent on the "other stuff" as much or more than the nicotine.
to be fair,we don't know that vaping has "no carcinogens" (this has actually been proven to NOT be the case in several different studies - and seeing the chemical makeup of coil wires doesn't inspire confidence that they are not emitting at least some harmful chemicals when heated)at this point - we're all just glorified guinea pigs.

We have this amazing way to quit without ingesting any bad chemicals and I see people stopping it to ingest something without many studies, yes I've seen a few that show it's less harmful but it's STILL TOBACCO!! Why not stick to what we know is safe with vaping, aside of course if it doesn't do it for some people, but I still think they should move towards being tobacco free.

there have been almost 200 years worth of studies done on snus and it is proven over and over again to be about 1/10th as harmful as cigarette consumption.Real snus doesn't utilize any potentially harmful chemicals that aren't in e-liquid and the fact of the matter is that we don't know that vaping is safe - it hasn't been around long enough to be conclusively proven one way or the other.

the best non partisan,harm reduction source i've seen for good information is dr Brad rodu. his blog is searchable and has links to all kind of studies (good and bad):
http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/
UofL research shows substituting with smokeless tobacco saves lives — University of Louisville

I've seen people with absolutely disgusting teeth from dipping, and know that there are in fact carcinogens in tobacco regardless of how you take it and however low the studies say the risk is.

i've seen vapers with short fuses,confirmation bias and badly trained dogs.It doesn't mean that vaping is the sole cause of it.
Dip has very,very little in common with swedish snus and this point of view usually stems from misinformation about dip having fiberglass and all kinds of other nasty things in it (you know, to scare "the kids" and desparate smokers away from using it).the truth is that the growing,drying, and preparation of the two are different.the fermentation part and resulting acidity of american "dip" is a big part of why the problems with its' users are so magnified. between the astronomically exaggerated nitrosamine levels from the american based fermentation process and the added sweeteners - it can wreak havoc on people's mouths when they have substandard dental hygiene.

FAQ: Health Effects (tobaccoharmreduction.org)


as to the carcinogen comment,there are carcinogens in everything - if you know the risks and are willing to accept that risk as a part of the solution for yourself then this is a non issue.oral tobacco has been studied to death and we all know EXACTLY what we are dealing with. this is not the case with e-juice.once again it's all about acceptable risks for the individual, not a black and white nanny state for everyone.

Also it seems like grouping snus in with vaping makes vaping look bad, it is not tobacco and it does not have the same carcinogens. Anyway just wanted to put this out there, if anyone has studies/articles that may change my mind send em over but as of now i'm anti- any tobacco and pro-vaping to save lives. thanks

so you just don't want snus lumped together with vaping because you think all snus users are dumb hillbillies with bad teeth and it might somehow make you look bad? if we approach this thing open mindedly and as a group then everyone wins.the big pharma that's backing the victim's advocates organizations and big tobacco that's making money hand over fist from killing us sure ain't gonna do it.they've proven that with the cigarette experiment we've been living in....

PS here's the article from cancer.org. i'd trust this site a lot more than studies which may have been done by manufacturers of snus... I'll stick to vaping thanks

Harmful health effects of smokeless tobacco include:
•Mouth, tongue, cheek, gum, and throat cancer
•Cancer in the esophagus (the swallowing tube that goes from your mouth to your stomach)
•Stomach cancer
•Pancreatic cancer
• Possible increase in risk of heart disease, heart attacks, and stroke
• Addiction to nicotine (which can lead to smoking)
• Leukoplakia (white sores in the mouth that can become cancer)
• Receding gums (gums slowly shrink from around the teeth) and gum disease (gingivitis)
• Bone loss around the roots of the teeth
• Abrasion (scratching and wearing down) of teeth
• Cavities and tooth decay
• Tooth loss
• Stained and discolored teeth
• Bad breath

this page rebuffs or just plain proves wrong almost everything on your list there^
FAQ: Health Effects (tobaccoharmreduction.org)


not trying to be a .... here but, you know cancer.org is trying to kill vaping as well,right?

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/07/american-cancer-society-continues.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...erican-cancer-society-stance.html#post3131097

look at the second post - links to the info there.

on the very page you cite on their website they throw around a whole lot of fear mongering hyperbole,mentioning "the kids!!!" and then just say "oh, it hasn't been studied in clinical trials" (i.e. they don't know what they are talking about)directly from the cancer.org page:

Smokeless tobacco products are less lethal than cigarettes: On average, they kill fewer people than cigarettes. But smokeless tobacco hurts and kills people all the same. Even though they are marketed as a less harmful alternative to smoking, smokeless products can be deadly. And they have not been proven to help smokers quit.


except it has...
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/pdf/1477-7517-9-38.pdf

http://www.swedishmatch.com/Documen...the Scientific Literature on Snus 3-31-10.pdf



and these gems:
Certain factors seem to be linked to whether young people will use tobacco. They include:

Examples set by parents
Peer pressure
Local lifestyles and fashions
General attitudes toward authority
Economic conditions
Examples set by teachers and school staff
Presence of gangs
Use of illegal drugs and alcohol

Tobacco company advertising and exposure can influence youth, too


really??????? hating authority and being around gangs makes you want to angrily pop a portion and give a big finger to the man!!!



Smokeless tobacco may also play a role in heart disease and high blood pressure. Results from a large American Cancer Society study showed that men who switched from cigarettes to snuff or chewing tobacco had higher death rates from heart disease, stroke, cancer of the mouth and lung, and all causes of death combined than former smokers who stopped using all tobacco products. It’s unclear whether the heart disease was caused by the smokeless tobacco products in this study.

Found out more, even from the Swedish studies people like to cite:
In a recently published prospective cohort study, comprising more than 10 000 Norwegian men, the relationship between the use of smokeless tobacco (snus and chewing tobacco) and the risk of cancer of pancreas and other organs, such as oral cavity/pharynx, esophagus, stomach, lung, kidney or bladder was studied. The authors found that snus use was associated with significant increase in the risk of pancreatic cancer. The increase in risk was only seen among ever-users of snus who were smokers at the start of the study, 40 years earlier. Snus use was, however, not associated with increases in risk of cancer of the oral cavity/pharynx, esophagus, stomach, lung, kidney or bladder (Boffetta et al., 2005).

in the grand scheme of things, the increased cancer risk of snus at worst is between 1% and 10% that of habitual cigarette usage :
Summary of the epidemiological evide... [Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

to put that into perspective,that puts it on par with excessive hot dog consumption.hot dogs are killers!!!!

 

[supertrunker]

and that is goodnight Vienna! Best post of the week.

T

 

[Tonythefiddler]

Thanks everyone sorry I was misinformed, although I still won't be picking up any snus I have a new perspective on it.

 

[Tonythefiddler]

kinda funny about the gangs too i'm a vape gangsta haha

 

[firechick]

Gutter........you found a drummer! [emoji1]

 

[Steamix]

It's so tiring.

This 'it's not safe' or 'it's safety has not been established' talk.

A sort of broad brush to paint everything and everyone into a corner that doesn't fit the agenda.

Trying to slip something in that was never claimed.
Vaping is not 'safe' . It is less ( way less ) UNsafe than smoking tobacco.
Snusing is not 'safe'.It is,,,(see above).

So don't try to apply the yardstick of the unattainable.

Smoking tobacco has a proven body count on par with some minor wars and/or genocides.

So look at what we're movin away from and don't tell us not to move cuz we can't reach :

Life is not 'safe' either - one dies from it eventually.

 

[firechick]

Steamix has it. No one gets out alive, no matter how "clean" a life they might have lived.

 

[keepsmiling]

Some us just get out looking better in the box than others...

 

[Guttermouth]

Some us just get out looking better in the box than others...

Hah!!

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”

― Hunter S. Thompson

 

[Guttermouth]

Thanks everyone sorry I was misinformed, although I still won't be picking up any snus I have a new perspective on it.

no biggie - we all heard some crazy stuff that wasn't necessarily factual about smokeless at one time or another.

and just to welcome you in proper :

 

[olderthandirt]

they are grouped together as a total solution to the smoking cessation problem as a "reduced harm" alternative to cigarettes.There are other habit forming and psychoactive agents at work in cigarettes and it has been proven that some people are more dependent on the "other stuff" as much or more than the nicotine.
to be fair,we don't know that vaping has "no carcinogens" (this has actually been proven to NOT be the case in several different studies - and seeing the chemical makeup of coil wires doesn't inspire confidence that they are not emitting at least some harmful chemicals when heated)at this point - we're all just glorified guinea pigs.

................

to put that into perspective,that puts it on par with excessive hot dog consumption.hot dogs are killers!!!!

Gutter........you found a drummer! [emoji1]

Indeed.

Dang! Was that prepared or off the cuff Gutter?
When I was a proud to bear a portion in the upperdeck snusser I tried my hand at helping others understand the whys and wherefores of Snus. Never achieved the style and clarity of your post though!

 

[Stubby]

Okay, first off I confess I use tofu dogs....... really I do........ It's a marriage penalty. Having said that I do believe that tofu dogs are killers and I'm all for banning them.

Now on to business. I see the OP has backed off, but far be it for me to let him off the hock. There is so much wrong with the opening statement one hardly knows where to begin. This a piece by Brad Rodu on pancreatic cancer

http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-study-smokeless-tobacco-is-not.html

Contrary to common myth american style smokeless as in dip and chew has the same low risk for cancer and heart disease that snus has. Because of the sugars used in processing there may be a slightly higher risk for gum issues, but nothing life threatening.

There is far more evidence supporting smokeless tobacco as a low risk alternative them vaping. Besides some of the chemicals coming off the coil, the biggest long term issue may be the flavorings. There are some very questionable flavorings that are still in widespread use. It is naive to think there will not be long term issues for some people. There appears to be a whole lot of denial going on in the industry and consumers.

It is always a hoot when a new vapor comes along full of enthusiasm and vinegar decides to save us smokeless tobacco users from the evils of tobacco, especially when quoting from the same people who are trying to destroy vaping.

 

[Guttermouth]

Indeed.

Dang! Was that prepared or off the cuff Gutter?
When I was a proud to bear a portion in the upperdeck snusser I tried my hand at helping others understand the whys and wherefores of Snus. Never achieved the style and clarity of your post though!

Thanks man - it was just off the cuff. Now that you mention it, we would probably all do well to have prepared canned responses and some sort of repository for data to point to.

 

[olderthandirt]

Thanks man - it was just off the cuff. ....

heh-heh
When yer good yer gold (-:

 

[Guttermouth]

heh-heh
When yer good yer gold (-:

aww shucks......

*looks down, kicks dirt*