Adding richness/depth without adding sweetness?

[amoret]

Long back story, feel free to skip to the "My actual question" paragraph

All of my almost ADVs (3 1/2 now, and I rotate among the main 3 all day) are not sweet, and are very low % flavors (3 - 8%) compared to a lot of people posting in here. Some are simple recipes - the still changing one is a mint mix that I'm still working out - it's looking like 4 mint flavors. My original and still favorite is single flavor Nature's Flavors Earl Gray Tea (currently at 5.1/2% but new batch will be 6 or 6 1/2%. I ordered the diacetyl free* version (they have about 10 variations) last time and it's kind of watery/musty tasting. I also have a menthol/Burley tobacco, and I'm working with a Jasmine tea (Inawera 'Green Spring ') that's the half. I know Jasmine Tea ought to taste flowery, but that's a light, airy flowery, and this is like that back-note on some fruits - it's more like talcum or perfume flowery not tea flowery. If I could find Green Tea to add to it I would but the only plain tea is Black Tea

But, my actual question is how to add a richer, deeper note to any or all of these (Earl Gray Tea, Burley Menthol tobacco, Jasmine Tea and a mint mixture) without adding sweetness? I have on hand some:

Nature's Flavors
Cream, and
Butter

Inawera
Custard,
Vanilla Tahiti,
Cactus and
Sweet King

TFA
Sweetener and
Bourbon** Vanilla

plus Ethyl Maltol.

I'm willing to order more of something to try adding to sample batches. (As usual I've left making the new large (120ml, but I'm thinking 240 this time for the main 2 - Earl Gray and Burley Menthol) batches until the last possible minute - planning ahead? What's that? So I'll be mixing up those tonight.

The Vanillas seem a little odd with tea flavors, maybe ok with mints, but my mint is getting very nicely multi-layered and shouldn't need anything much more - I hope.
I'm not even sure why I have the sweeteners, unless they were on an 'Everyone should have these' list when I started DIY 4 years ago.

Part of my current problem/question is that thanks to a (well worth it) medicine I now have extreme dry mouth, which seems to knock down flavor, so I've been ramping the flavor %s up fast for me, instead of the same old, same old I've been doing for 3+ years. And I'm also generally looking for improvements I can make.

* I'm 66, smoked for 42 years, have read the available information on 'popcorn lung' in people exposed to large amounts of diacetyl in industrial settings, and have decided that I don't see much point to cutting down/out something that seems to improve many flavors.

** 'Bourbon' vanilla actually has nothing to do with the whiskey flavor, it's just a type of vanilla. I prefer it for baking over Tahitian and Mexican vanillas. It tends to be a richer, stronger vanilla than the others. The Bourbon family held a lot of power in France for centuries, lots of time to get things named for/after them.

 

[dannyv45]

If you want to add richness, thickness and depth without adding sweetness try adding .5 to (but no more then) 1% of marshmallow. It adds the qualities your after without changing the taste of the primary flavors.

* I'm 66, smoked for 42 years, have read the available information on 'popcorn lung' in people exposed to large amounts of diacetyl in industrial settings, and have decided that I don't see much point to cutting down/out something that seems to improve many flavors.

I'm the same age as you and smoked a little longer then you and I subscribe to the same sentiment as you regarding diacetyl.
As far as I'm concerned at my age if 40+ years of smoking didn't kill me a little diacetyl won't either.

I'm now over 4 years smoke free thanks to vaping and feel wonderful.

 

[Trigster]

Hi Amoret...I'm probably the wrong guy 'cause I'm a Sweet-A-Holic ...However a couple that come to mind are the "Nuts" and maybe Bavarian Cream which is only mildly sweet to my taste...I do regularly vape a mix of FE Turkish 3% + FW Hazelnut 2% which is a sweet blend but not overpowering...One other that's definatly in the sweet category is TFA English Toffee which blends wonderfully with Tobaccos...I wouldn't call it super sweet for the amount of flavor it delivers in fairly small amounts...Just A Few Thoughts...Trig

 

[BrotherBob]

But, my actual question is how to add a richer, deeper note to any or all of these (Earl Gray Tea, Burley Menthol Tobacco, Jasmine Tea and a mint mixture) without adding sweetness? I have on hand some:

" Ester of Wood Rosin- Sold by FA as bitter wizard, also a main ingredient of MTS vape wizard by fa. Used in Gatorade and some colas to give a bitter note. At
0.5%, masks the flavor of vg and pg, thus only leaving the taste of your flavor mix. At 1% or higher, gives the pleasant bitter ring of colas, whiskeys, or dark chocolate. "
re: Know Your Enhancers

I have on hand some:
Nature's Flavors
Cream, and
Butter
Inawera
Custard,
Vanilla Tahiti,
Cactus and
Sweet King
TFA
Sweetener and
Bourbon** Vanilla
plus Ethyl Maltol.

Might want to stay away from above if you think these flavors are too sweet.

I'm not even sure why I have the sweeteners, unless they were on an 'Everyone should have these' list when I started DIY 4 years ago.

Some folks find Marshmallow sweet.
re: Making a catalog of concentrates that add sweetness. • r/DIY_eJuice

I've been ramping the flavor %s up fast for me,

Would not get to hung up about how little amount of (percentage) of flavor you think is enough until you know for sure. Could continue to use 6% mixes and do a couple of 3% increases (9,12% etc.) mixes for testing purposes. A higher % can increase or decrease the perceived mix intensity.

Part of my current problem/question is that thanks to a (well worth it) medicine I now have extreme dry mouth, which seems to knock down flavor, so I've been ramping the flavor %s up fast for me, instead of the same old, same old I've been doing for 3+ years.

Saline, or saline solution, is medical grade distilled water with salt (NaCL) and can be used in all flavors to enhance flavor and add moistness, test it a bit before making a big batch. It reduces the mouth/sinus/throat-dehydration caused by VG and PG.
re: E-liquid recipes tips and tricks. (http. not allowed)

 

[dc99]

The cactus can add some wetness. Fig at .25-.5. I agree with Danny45 on the marshmallow.

 

[stols001]

I have a coconut-marshmallow juice that I use simply to add creamy/slight sweetness to mixes that need it. It's okay on its own, but I do like it in combination with other flavors. It's got some depth, but it's not overpowering. Bavarian crème might help, too, but I think it's more flat. I was surprised at marshmellow, (which I don't like as a flavor) but in the right concentrations it's an awesome sweetener, and nothing like actual marshmallows (at least to me) honestly.

Anna

 

[englishmick]

I'm a big fan of Earl Grey. I found the Earl Grey juice a little disappointing until I came across a tip here somewhere. Might not work for you but it worked for me. I add Honey flavor at the same % as the Earl Grey. Sounds a bit extreme on the Honey but it worked.

My latest flavor experiment is Peppermint. I didn't like it much until I tried it with fruit, another suggestion I found here. I used Papaya, Mango, and Peach, with 4% Peppermint, plus a little Cream and Vanilla. Really like it now.

My flavors are all TFA so it might not work the same way for you.

 

[classwife]

I'm a big fan of Earl Grey. I found the Earl Grey juice a little disappointing until I came across a tip here somewhere. Might not work for you but it worked for me. I add Honey flavor at the same % as the Earl Grey. Sounds a bit extreme on the Honey but it worked.

I love my Earl Grey mix - I add a touch of Sweet Cream to it.

 

[englishmick]

I love my Earl Grey mix - I add a touch of Sweet Cream to it.

I put some Sweet Cream in mine too. And a touch of French Vanilla.

Out of my half dozen regular flavors Earl Grey is the one that nobody else likes.

 

[classwife]

I put some Sweet Cream in mine too. And a touch of French Vanilla.

Out of my half dozen regular flavors Earl Grey is the one that nobody else likes.

I do think Earl Grey is an acquired taste if you weren't brought up with it.

 

[amoret]

Thanks, all, for your replies. In my usual way of advance planning, I have to mix my main 3 today if I want more than 1 flavor tomorrow. Thanks to speed steeping (I use zapped dry rice, the bucket of which is used between steeping needs as an electronics dryer) I should be okay. I'm making fairly large batches now - the last major 'cooking' day output lasted 5 months - so I will be able to pull some to experiment on.

f you want to add richness, thickness and depth without adding sweetness try adding .5 to (but no more then) 1% of marshmallow. It adds the qualities your after without changing the taste of the primary flavors.

Thanks, that sounds like I'll need to try some soon.

One other that's definatly in the sweet category is TFA English Toffee which blends wonderfully with Tobaccos...I wouldn't call it super sweet for the amount of flavor it delivers in fairly small amounts.

That is interesting. My first couple of years vaping I used Nature's Flavors English Toffee as my one sweet flavor - mainly because it was (and presumably still is) a rich taste but not very sweet. I should still have some, but replacement would need to be with a different brand, since no vaping flavor supplier still carries many Natures Flavors flavorings. I buy large amounts of my Earl Grey Tea flavoring directly from them now, but that probably wouldn't make sense for the toffee.

The cactus can add some wetness. Fig at .25-.5. I agree with Danny45 on the marshmallow.

I knew it was supposed to help with fruit flavors - my other ongoing projects have been Cranapple and some variation of Black Currant.

I started with NF because it was pretty obviously the source of 2 of my favorite commercial e-liquid flavors - Earl Grey Tea and ...English Toffee.

Ester of Wood Rosin- Sold by FA as bitter wizard, also a main ingredient of MTS vape wizard by fa. Used in Gatorade and some colas to give a bitter note. At
0.5%, masks the flavor of vg and pg, thus only leaving the taste of your flavor mix. At 1% or higher, gives the pleasant bitter ring of colas, whiskeys, or dark chocolate. "

That's also going on my 'to buy' list, then.

Would not get to hung up about how little amount of (percentage) of flavor you think is enough until you know for sure. Could continue to use 6% mixes and do a couple of 3% increases (9,12% etc.) mixes for testing purposes. A higher % can increase or decrease the perceived mix intensity.

That is pretty much my plan for today's 'big batch' - I'm going to keep the % as is, and then play with it on small portions.

I have a coconut-marshmallow juice that I use simply to add creamy/slight sweetness to mixes that need it. It's okay on its own, but I do like it in combination with other flavors. It's got some depth, but it's not overpowering. Bavarian crème might help, too, but I think it's more flat. I was surprised at marshmellow, (which I don't like as a flavor) but in the right concentrations it's an awesome sweetener, and nothing like actual marshmallows (at least to me) honestly.

Anna

Yep, sounds like I will try Marshmallow.

So I'm left trying to figure out my Jasmine Tea. Since no-one seems to have a green tea flavoring I'm thinking just a tiny bit of Black Tea, for the astringency of tea. If natural steeping is going to help, we're talking over 8 months now - I don't think that's gonna work for a champion procrastinator.

 

[amoret]

I'm a big fan of Earl Grey. I found the Earl Grey juice a little disappointing until I came across a tip here somewhere. Might not work for you but it worked for me. I add Honey flavor at the same % as the Earl Grey. Sounds a bit extreme on the Honey but it worked.

My latest flavor experiment is Peppermint. I didn't like it much until I tried it with fruit, another suggestion I found here. I used Papaya, Mango, and Peach, with 4% Peppermint, plus a little Cream and Vanilla. Really like it now.

My flavors are all TFA so it might not work the same way for you.

I love my Earl Grey mix - I add a touch of Sweet Cream to it.

I put some Sweet Cream in mine too. And a touch of French Vanilla.

Out of my half dozen regular flavors Earl Grey is the one that nobody else likes.

I do think Earl Grey is an acquired taste if you weren't brought up with it.

Yes, Earl Grey is my favorite flavor in the current roundup. I really do like the Nature's Flavors as having the right amount of Bergamot and not being bitter. I also tried mixing with Flavour Art Bergamot and Black Tea, but settled on Nature's Flavors. Though they have all kinds of different products for different uses.

The last batch I got was "Diacetyl Free, thinking that sounded like it was meant for vaping, but it's been kind of disappointing. It has a slightly musty flavor that takes double heat steeping to get out, and still improves over time. I'm not famous for planning ahead or patience. I'll need to re-order after this batch but I'll be going back to their 'Coffee or Tea Flavoring' again.

I'll be trying some cream in some now - thanks.

 

[glasseye]

That is interesting. My first couple of years vaping I used Nature's Flavors English Toffee as my one sweet flavor - mainly because it was (and presumably still is) a rich taste but not very sweet. I should still have some, but replacement would need to be with a different brand, since no vaping flavor supplier still carries many Natures Flavors flavorings.

High Desert Vapes does. NF Natural You might want to try the plain malt flavoring. It adds a little something. I don't like Earl Gray so I don't know if that something would be something good. lol Pretty good in tobaccos.

 

[CagedSpam]

Since no-one seems to have a green tea flavoring

I may have misunderstood your intent but there are green teas out there.

Green Tea-FA

My experience with FA has been very positive.

Good luck and good info in this thread.

 

[amoret]

I may have misunderstood your intent but there are green teas out there.

Green Tea-FA

My experience with FA has been very positive.

Good luck and good info in this thread.

Thank-you, thank-you. My intent is to get more tea flavor with the over-the-top Jasmine flavor

 

[amoret]

Yes, Earl Grey is my favorite flavor in the current roundup. I really do like the Nature's Flavors as having the right amount of Bergamot and not being bitter. I also tried mixing with Flavour Art Bergamot and Black Tea, but settled on Nature's Flavors. Though they have all kinds of different products for different uses.

The last batch I got was "Diacetyl Free, thinking that sounded like it was meant for vaping, but it's been kind of disappointing. It has a slightly musty flavor that takes double heat steeping to get out, and still improves over time. I'm not famous for planning ahead or patience. I'll need to re-order after this batch but I'll be going back to their 'Coffee or Tea Flavoring' again.

I'll be trying some cream in some now - thanks.

Shopping at Nature's Flavors for restocking Earl Grey - I think I found the one I want:

Organic Earl Grey Coffee and Tea Flavoring
"...in addition they will mix into Glycerin, and Propylene Glycol solutions even better than our Organic Flavor Extracts..."

 

[Capt.shay]

Marshmallow is magic juice.

 

[IDJoel]

Thank-you, thank-you. My intent is to get more tea flavor with the over-the-top Jasmine flavor

I have used TFA's (The Flavor Apprentice) Earl Grey Tea, Green Tea, and Black Tea. The TFA Earl Grey is a good classic tasting Earl Grey with good balance between the Bergamot and tea flavors.. The TFA Green Tea is a good solid tea flavor, though if I am being honest, I would have to say it is closer to a traditional Lipton (tea bag; not instant) taste, verses any green tea I have tried. TFA Black Tea is the only one I just couldn't get to work for me... it is just plain nasty. It makes me think that's what it might taste like if you were to suck on a week-old used tea bag that had been sitting in the garbage can. Yuck!

I did purchase the FA (Flavour Art) Green Tea on my last order; but I haven't tried it yet, so I can't offer an opinion.

 

[englishmick]

I have used TFA's (The Flavor Apprentice) Earl Grey Tea, Green Tea, and Black Tea. The TFA Earl Grey is a good classic tasting Earl Grey with good balance between the Bergamot and tea flavors.. The TFA Green Tea is a good solid tea flavor, though if I am being honest, I would have to say it is closer to a traditional Lipton (tea bag; not instant) taste, verses any green tea I have tried. TFA Black Tea is the only one I just couldn't get to work for me... it is just plain nasty. It makes me think that's what it might taste like if you were to suck on a week-old used tea bag that had been sitting in the garbage can. Yuck!

I did purchase the FA (Flavour Art) Green Tea on my last order; but I haven't tried it yet, so I can't offer an opinion.

I love the TFA Earl Grey. I got a sample of TFA Green Tea a few months ago and I had the same reaction to it as you had to the Black. How did you mix the Green Tea?

 

[IDJoel]

I love the TFA Earl Grey. I got a sample of TFA Green Tea a few months ago and I had the same reaction to it as you had to the Black. How did you mix the Green Tea?

I use a recipe that I got from the TFA Recipes Only thread created by @scooterholic :
TPA/TFA Recipes only!

My version is slightly different, and I cant remember why exactly (my note taking was not as thorough then), but it was probably due to not having exact ingredients. Anyhow; this is my current itteration:

The two notable differences, between Scooter's and mine are: I omit the Chai Tea (I didn't, and still don't have in my flavor locker), and I sub Sweet Cream for the Whipped Cream (I am not sure why; if this was a matter of my not having it at the time, or if I wanted more of a dairy note... my notes don't specify. Plus the percentage is bumped from 3% to 3.7%). I think(?) my intention was to mimic the dairy component of the Chai Tea without adding the unwanted (for me) cinnamon note. I can't say whether, I came to this via trial-and-error, or if I started with that and it just worked.

For the TFA-Green Tea; I just sub it for the Earl Grey at the same percentage.

At nearly 30% flavoring, this is a high flavor percentage mix, and I don't normally mix this high anymore, but I have not found the need/desire to try mixing it lower (to this point anyway). You can fiddle with it as you like.

And for anyone that is going to say "8% honey; how can you stand it that high!?" I would say: "I don't know, it just works in this recipe for me." Anyone is more than welcome to cut it, or any of the other ingredients, to whatever makes them happy.