I'm sure your scenario is as likely as mine... I'm not as defeatist though.
AEMSA Lawyer talks about possible FDA Regulations.
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I'm sure your scenario is as likely as mine... I'm not as defeatist though.
A defeatist sits on their hands and does nothing while waiting to make the best of whatever others decide to do unto them.
Well, that's pretty much what the dictionary says about it anyway.
And that is what I meant as well.
Anyone who is advocating that we fight the rampant BS is taking a pro-active approach.
Sitting on ones hands and not doing anything is what I would call defeatist.
As for me, I'm doing both, as I've got 10 years worth of nicotine in my freezer but I won't stop fighting anytime soon.
Right. But discounting a hypothetical with another hypothetical isn't pro-active is it?
If the authorities are to regulate anything, wouldn't liquid nicotine be among the first items on the list? Every other component of an e-cig has at least an arguably benign purpose elsewhere (flashlights for batteries, foods for flavorings, and so on).
In any case, the DIY argument has always rubbed me the wrong way because it carries with it the implicit (though doubtlessly unintentional) suggestion that the reputation and availability of e-cigs among the general population aren't as important as the ability of a select few people to dodge the system. "Let them come; I've got X years worth of supplies bought cheap!!!"
Although I'm happy for anyone who feels that he is prepared to weather the storm, individual preparedness is irrelevant to the larger debate. The fact remains: vaping shouldn't be a taboo behavior. More importantly, the unjust stigmatization of vaping would unnecessarily jeopardize the long-term health of potentially millions of smokers. Easy for me to say that I could take up DIY, but what about the uninitiated smoker who never even gives e-cigs a chance because the public-health establishment's scared him off, and/or because the government's made experimentation with e-cigs prohibitively expensive/difficult?
None of the above is aimed specifically at you, Jay-dub. I've seen far more objectionable flavors of the DIY argument in other threads, and I know you didn't mean to come off as self-centered or callous. I just wish people on this forum generally were more focused on the big picture. DC2 stated all of this more eloquently than I have earlier, but I felt it was worth repeating.
Can you provide more detail as to what point you wish to make?
I'm not following.
This may or may not be due to the fact that I took a vacation day and am currently drinking margaritas.
Can you provide more detail as to what point you wish to make?
I'm not following.
This may or may not be due to the fact that I took a vacation day and am currently drinking margaritas.
A flavored alcoholic beverage?!? I sure hope you've hid your children!
That's funny.
I can be eloquent when I take the time, but usually I'm more of a "sound bite" kind of guy.
I fire off so darn many posts here that I often try to make a point quickly, which may not always hit home with some folks.
The fact that I am usually trying to be somewhat subtle in my intellectual "nudgings" may not help in many cases.
Regardless, you are ALWAYS more eloquent than I am.
And for that I applaud you.
I was using DIY tactically, to establish the ineffectiveness of proposed regulation. Must have done it wrong. How you uze interwebz again? I'm sorry but all I see are scare tactics right now. It looks like the threat of regulation is being used to shakedown the industry under threat. Remember in the mobster days when they'd go into neighborhood establishments and say things like "This is a nice place, sure hate for something to happen to it"? Well, I don't think the mob invented that practice.
Gov't did and long before America was even founded. But, for nicotine to be outlawed would be wild. I guess they don't use it for any other applications? That's cool. I'll be the first person to go to jail then over it then. Race ya!Can you provide more detail as to what point you wish to make?
I'm not following.
This may or may not be due to the fact that I took a vacation day and am currently drinking margaritas.
I thought you were entering in on the few posts between me wv2win. I guess not.
I was using DIY tactically, to establish the ineffectiveness of proposed regulation. Must have done it wrong. How you uze interwebz again? I'm sorry but all I see are scare tactics right now. It looks like the threat of regulation is being used to shakedown the industry. Remember in the mobster days when they'd go into neighborhood establishments and say things like "This is a nice place, sure hate for something to happen to it"? Well, I don't think the mob invented that practice.
Gov't did and long before America was even founded. But, for nicotine to be outlawed would be wild. I guess they don't use it for any other applications? That's cool. I'll be the first person to go to jail over it then. Race ya!Can you provide more detail as to what point you wish to make?
I'm not following.
This may or may not be due to the fact that I took a vacation day and am currently drinking margaritas.
I thought you were entering in on the few posts between me wv2win. I guess not.
No, you're right, I was. But I lost track of the conversation due to the aforementioned margaritas.I thought you were entering in on the few posts between me wv2win. I guess not.
Neither I'm I, but instead a realist. You have been vaping for 5 minutes and have not lived through the battles that have been going on since 2009. Have you even read the deeming regulations? Do you have a clue as to what vaping was like pre-2007? I find many of your posts lack real research but are steeped in "off the top of your head".
We all hope that the FDA decides to cave in and only recommend shallow regulations. Their past actions, the personal/professional history of their leadership and their own deceptions does not appear to support that outcome.
And IMO, we should be fighting against these regulations not just for those who currently vape, but for the millions who have yet to discover it as a means to free themselves from tobacco.
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I was using DIY tactically, to establish the ineffectiveness of proposed regulation. Must have done it wrong. How you uze interwebz again? I'm sorry but all I see are scare tactics right now. It looks like the threat of regulation is being used to shakedown the industry under threat. Remember in the mobster days when they'd go into neighborhood establishments and say things like "This is a nice place, sure hate for something to happen to it"? Well, I don't think the mob invented that practice.
Nicotine outlawed altogether? Nah, I don't see that happening. But nicotine could easily be restricted and/or heavily taxed. If there are any mainstream alternative uses for liquid nicotine on the consumer market, I'm not aware of them.
I don't disagree with your assessment of the regulation threat as it stands today, but it's important to remember that we're not just dealing with greed here; we're also dealing with a rather aggressive anti-nicotine/tobacco/fun (lol) ideology in the public health industry. There's a battle over Federal regulations, and there's a battle over state/local laws, but most importantly, there's a battle for hearts and minds. They're all inter-related.
At the moment, the regulation battle looks pretty tepid, even perhaps truce-like, but don't let the FDA's current lack of action lull you into complacency. Given all of the local stories pouring forth right now, it's even possible (though perhaps unlikely) that the FDA won't have anything left to regulate by the time it gets its ample .... in gear. The cat may be away, but the ANTZ sure do play.
That's funny.
I can be eloquent when I take the time, but usually I'm more of a "sound bite" kind of guy.
I fire off so darn many posts here that I often try to make a point quickly, which may not always hit home with some folks.
The fact that I am usually trying to be somewhat subtle in my intellectual "nudgings" may not help in many cases.
Regardless, you are ALWAYS more eloquent than I am.
And for that I applaud you.
Heh, brevity is the soul of wit, my friend.
On this one small issue, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I work in an industry that's been outlawed in seven states so I'm familiar with draconian measures. The situation isn't all that dissimilar. Yes, I've read the ever changing deeming regulations but I highly doubt I've read the latest incarnation. It's not like anything I say anywhere in this forum is helpful or informative to anyone so why start now?
why is the double post monster getting me so often today?
Oh well. Back to the comedy: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutf...boutthecenterfortobaccoproducts/ucm361437.pdf
Actually - http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=ele...ds=-archive:Yes&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*
Oh well. Back to the comedy: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutf...boutthecenterfortobaccoproducts/ucm361437.pdf
Actually - http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=ele...ds=-archive:Yes&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*
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You know what - screw all the in-fighting. Unfortunately, when some groups feel pressure from the outside they turn on each other. Right now, everything is up in the air and no one's speculations on the possible outcome may end up being correct.
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In the search link, I opened the med reports page. Some of the reports were refreshing, such as "the only adverse effects I've experienced, is the FDA trying to ban the only thing that has saved my life".
A few reports shared how the report wouldn't let them report unless they exclaimed hospitalization or death, etc..
Most reports were allergy related. Sensitivity to pg or certain Flavors.
Reports common to new ex smokers, no matter how they had quit, such as bleeding gums, coughing out phlem, etc
An exploding battery or two.
A few pneumonia, bronchitis cases they blamed on vaping.
One Pleurisy blame.
A few were hospitalized. One was nic related, non life threatening, mostly paranoid user. (But boxelders(sp) came to mind)
The number one complaint? The anti freeze (plastic, poison, nicotine, metals) is killing my friend, loved one, whoever. Lol.
There were a few worth keeping an eye on, such as a feeling of heaviness, bloating. Maybe something else, I already forgot.
My point, though, is that they DO record the positive input, even though it's counted as a negative because you have to click a negative to get on through the report.
A few reports shared how the report wouldn't let them report unless they exclaimed hospitalization or death, etc..
Most reports were allergy related. Sensitivity to pg or certain Flavors.
Reports common to new ex smokers, no matter how they had quit, such as bleeding gums, coughing out phlem, etc
An exploding battery or two.
A few pneumonia, bronchitis cases they blamed on vaping.
One Pleurisy blame.
A few were hospitalized. One was nic related, non life threatening, mostly paranoid user. (But boxelders(sp) came to mind)
The number one complaint? The anti freeze (plastic, poison, nicotine, metals) is killing my friend, loved one, whoever. Lol.
There were a few worth keeping an eye on, such as a feeling of heaviness, bloating. Maybe something else, I already forgot.
My point, though, is that they DO record the positive input, even though it's counted as a negative because you have to click a negative to get on through the report.
I've combed over the FDA's web-site an have yet to find any FDA findings on the subject of e-cigs or vaping. Lot's of speculation but no FDA published or endorsed findings either way. If FDA handles vaping under it's tobacco wing, banning before published findings is unprecedented. Not so in the Pharma wing. We'd be totally screwed. I don't know but assuming we're doing harm without any evidence is sort of guilty before proven innocent in my book. Nothing wrong with asking hard questions, but if the answers aren't there yet I'd prefer to presume innocence.
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