Am I harming my daughter

[Maestro]

Why should we know better?

The majority of us are not scientists, we are end users. We simply don't know - pretending otherwise just makes us less credible.

Of course I want it to be true, and all indications are that it is true - but I don't think we can say it's a fact is all I am trying to say.

Because it's already been researched. I'm not talking about vaping, I'm talking about second-hand vapor. Look up a MSDS for PG and see what the safe exposure level is. It's far, far higher than the minuscule amount from being in the room with a vaper. Same with nicotine. It's already considered harmless in small amounts, just like caffeine and we know it's only present in miniscule amounts. We don't know the long term health effects from sucking lungfulls, but the second-hand vapor poses no threat to a budgie, let alone a person.

 

[Mutescream]

Also, you don't exactly put your mouth to a fog machine and suck down all the vapor it releases. That is why I do not like when people bring up how it is used in hospital ventilation as well. It is just not the same thing...(coming from an avid vapor)

You obviously missed the pbusardo video where he did just that (parodying the "bigger, better and moar clouds!" types), with a fog machine hooked up to a generator.

Being fair, I think it's also probably pretty rare that people get up in someone else's face and blow clouds, too.

 

[InTheShade]

Because it's already been researched. I'm not talking about vaping, I'm talking about second-hand vapor. Look up a MSDS for PG and see what the safe exposure level is. It's far, far higher than the minuscule amount from being in the room with a vaper. Same with nicotine. It's already considered harmless in small amounts, just like caffeine and we know it's only present in miniscule amounts. We don't know the long term health effects from sucking lungfulls, but the second-hand vapor poses no threat to a budgie, let alone a person.

You see I disagree, I have read the studies and I am constantly trying to learn more about the effects of first hand and second hand vapor.

I have seen the studies regarding PG, but what about the particular combination of PG, VG, nicotine and flavorings that we use? There are no studies on that. If you take each chemical in isolation, then yes, there is plenty of research, but the molecules (and therefore the effects) may change significantly in the mixtures we use.

This is an interesting discussion, I vape in my home around my wife and dog because I believe them to not be at risk from my vapor. I guess I am looking for empirical peer-reviewed evidence before I say it's a fact that long-term exposure to second hand vapor is without risk.

Until then, I will continue to say that all indications are that it is safe, but we don't know for sure. I don't know if I am splitting hairs or being unreasonable or even obtuse about it - but I am learning and questioning my own opinions and the reasons behind them so I thank everyone for the discussion.

 

[drummerskey]

That isn't necessarily true. I have seen two studies that showed toxins in second hand vaping........one of those two sited the other one. In one, they said that the exhale was safe as compared smoking and met the air quality standards of the work-place but that the work-place air quality standards did not require completely toxin-free air. The other one stated formaldehyde was present along with other toxins. The first study stated that the "formaldehyde" study used shoddy practices in their conclusions and that the toxins found were only in one type of juice from China.

Are either of these credible? I don't know but I do know that cigarette companies showed how safe cigarettes were in the 50's and they aren't. There are recalls and some pretty horrid side effects to prescription drugs that are deemed "safe". Good cholesterol, bad cholesterol, climate change, no climate change........I am just saying that is impossible to be 100%.

If a smoker asked me if it is safer, I would say, "yes, a lot safer" but I have never told anyone I converted it was completely harmless.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

Medium or long term?

If I measure the vapor you exhale, and I find no measurable amount of any toxins aside from traces of nicotine, what exactly do you think is going to change if I wait around? Do you think that if I measure what you exhale tomorrow that there will suddenly be toxins that are not present today?

There have been at least 6 university studies that I know of that have measured the potential toxins in exhaled vapor. The ONLY thing any of them found was slight traces of nicotine. That will not change in the medium or long term because toxins do not magically appear from nowhere.


There may still be some remaining questions about the safety for those of us who vape, but as far as second hand vapor goes, no legitimate study has found any trace of any toxins or carcinogens other than nicotine.

This is a point that I have not seen made very often!

Excellent - outstanding - perfect!

 

[69CamaroSS]

All valid points that you all are making. My can easily be summed up in a word that I try to apply in life in general: moderation! If something is "safer" and/or not yet known to be harmful, then limit exposure to it. I, like most of you, vape a lot and am enjoying being off the stinky analogs! If I vape around others, I hold my hits longer to reduce the amount of exhaled vapor and direct my exhalations away from anyone around me. Did we used to blow cigarette smoke in the face of others? I do find comfort in the fact that the levels of toxins are certainly considerably lower as well as the fact that vapor is denser and heavier and therefore can be blown down and away from others so as to not "linger" in the air to be inhaled with their next breath! Be respectful and prudent. As with all we do: If you think there is potential to harm others, don't!!

 

[twgbonehead]

You see I disagree, I have read the studies and I am constantly trying to learn more about the effects of first hand and second hand vapor.

I have seen the studies regarding PG, but what about the particular combination of PG, VG, nicotine and flavorings that we use? There are no studies on that. If you take each chemical in isolation, then yes, there is plenty of research, but the molecules (and therefore the effects) may change significantly in the mixtures we use.

This is an interesting discussion, I vape in my home around my wife and dog because I believe them to not be at risk from my vapor. I guess I am looking for empirical peer-reviewed evidence before I say it's a fact that long-term exposure to second hand vapor is without risk.

Until then, I will continue to say that all indications are that it is safe, but we don't know for sure. I don't know if I am splitting hairs or being unreasonable or even obtuse about it - but I am learning and questioning my own opinions and the reasons behind them so I thank everyone for the discussion.

Personally, I think that's hogwash.

If you're cooking a recipe for dinner, do you go exactly from a recipe in your cookbook? Are you afraid to substitute some other ingredient (olive oil instead of vegetable oil, corn syrup instead of sugar, etc)? And do you insist that every recipe you cook has been proven safe in that particular combination of ingredients? And that every restaurant dish you consume has also been likewise proven? Foods are MUCH MUCH more complicated mixtures, and as any chef will tell you, the quality of the ingredients, their freshness, and the manner in which they are prepared has a MAJOR effect on them. I trust that you are shaking in your boots every time you go out to eat.

Seriously, what's the story here???? Your point just doesn't make any sense to me. Do you ever burn candles in your house (scented or unscented?) Do you have your drinking water tested at least weekly for both organic and inorganic contaminants? Do you have your vehicles inspected monthly by a certified mechanic to ensure that they present no hazard to the driver as well as passengers and pedestrians? Have you gotten rid of all of your pets (which provide health benefits, but also health risks?)

Give me a break.

 

[drummerskey]

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with anyone here until it gets to the point of.............is it 100% safe which is what I am saying and what I believe IntheShade is saying. I cannot say it is COMPLETELY SAFE. Even pbusardo has a disclaimer on his videos to vape at your own risk and a blog entry that says that "he doesn't 100% know if vaping is safe"

No one is saying, don't vape because it isn't safe and you make Intheshade's argument. Your water isn't completely safe yet your drink it and if someone asked you if your drinking water was safe and your answer was, the city has tested it for public use.........that doesn't mean it is 100%

You could buy a 2011 Chevy Volt, those are completely safe........oh, wait. <---that was just a joke

More to the point, the OP's question was about being safe for her daughter with a heart condition....................

 

[jd1978]

Lol. Everyone always wants to kick around nicotine. Most people do not realize that they consume nicotine on a daily basis. Its in tomato's, potato's, eggplant, etc. Tobacco is not and never was the only plant to produce nicotine, although its levels are the highest. Not to mention natural tobaccos nic levels are not near those manipulated by big tobacco.

 

[Sgt.Rock]

...... The first study stated that the "formaldehyde" study used shoddy practices in their conclusions and that the toxins found were only in one type of juice from China.

Well..there's your problem Doggy treats anyone?

 

[InTheShade]

Personally, I think that's hogwash.

If you're cooking a recipe for dinner, do you go exactly from a recipe in your cookbook? Are you afraid to substitute some other ingredient (olive oil instead of vegetable oil, corn syrup instead of sugar, etc)? And do you insist that every recipe you cook has been proven safe in that particular combination of ingredients? And that every restaurant dish you consume has also been likewise proven? Foods are MUCH MUCH more complicated mixtures, and as any chef will tell you, the quality of the ingredients, their freshness, and the manner in which they are prepared has a MAJOR effect on them. I trust that you are shaking in your boots every time you go out to eat.

Seriously, what's the story here???? Your point just doesn't make any sense to me. Do you ever burn candles in your house (scented or unscented?) Do you have your drinking water tested at least weekly for both organic and inorganic contaminants? Do you have your vehicles inspected monthly by a certified mechanic to ensure that they present no hazard to the driver as well as passengers and pedestrians? Have you gotten rid of all of your pets (which provide health benefits, but also health risks?)

Give me a break.

Hogwash, I am assuming you mean the bit where I am talking about taking the chemicals in isolation and not the bit where I talk about feeling safe enough to vape around my family and pets.

As you can read from the mostly conciliatory nature of my post, I don't pretend to know, I have maintained throughout this discussion that I am stating my opinion. I have even stated that I am not sure if I am splitting hairs or being obtuse about it - so to make a leap that I must be scared to eat (ingestion and inhalation are two completely different biological processes by the way) is a stretch.

So hogwash it is then, and yes I will give you a break.

 

[twgbonehead]

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with anyone here until it gets to the point of.............is it 100% safe which is what I am saying and what I believe IntheShade is saying. I cannot say it is COMPLETELY SAFE. Even pbusardo has a disclaimer on his videos to vape at your own risk and a blog entry that says that "he doesn't 100% know if vaping is safe"

No one is saying, don't vape because it isn't safe and you make Intheshade's argument. Your water isn't completely safe yet your drink it and if someone asked you if your drinking water was safe and your answer was, the city has tested it for public use.........that doesn't mean it is 100%

You could buy a 2011 Chevy Volt, those are completely safe........oh, wait. <---that was just a joke

More to the point, the OP's question was about being safe for her daughter with a heart condition....................

So tell me, why is 100.000000% safe the measuring stick?

Tell me ANYTHING that is 100% safe. If you can find something like that, it would be a fair comparison.

I hate this total BS about "Nobody can prove it's 100% safe". The truth is, NOTHING is 100% safe. If you are concerned about how safe it is, without regard to the background, you are mislead. If you try to portray this as "not proven to be safe" then you MUST compare it to something else, which HAS been "proven to be safe".

 

[InTheShade]

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with anyone here until it gets to the point of.............is it 100% safe which is what I am saying and what I believe IntheShade is saying. I cannot say it is COMPLETELY SAFE. Even pbusardo has a disclaimer on his videos to vape at your own risk and a blog entry that says that "he doesn't 100% know if vaping is safe"

No one is saying, don't vape because it isn't safe and you make Intheshade's argument. Your water isn't completely safe yet your drink it and if someone asked you if your drinking water was safe and your answer was, the city has tested it for public use.........that doesn't mean it is 100%

You could buy a 2011 Chevy Volt, those are completely safe........oh, wait. <---that was just a joke

More to the point, the OP's question was about being safe for her daughter with a heart condition....................

Hogwash.

Oh wait, I mean thanks, that's pretty much all I am saying.

 

[InTheShade]

So tell me, why is 100.000000% safe the measuring stick?

Tell me ANYTHING that is 100% safe. If you can find something like that, it would be a fair comparison.

I hate this total BS about "Nobody can prove it's 100% safe". The truth is, NOTHING is 100% safe. If you are concerned about how safe it is, without regard to the background, you are mislead. If you try to portray this as "not proven to be safe" then you MUST compare it to something else, which HAS been "proven to be safe".

I disagree, but then you knew I would right. It's not about absolutes. So following your argument we should assume everything is OK because nothing is ever 100% safe?
As for wanting to review studies about the safety of something, I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Also, to say I personally think it's safe but so far the studies prove inconclusive is again reasonable in my opinion. When you talk about water being 'safe' we have years and years of studies and parameters to make that determination - hence no disclaimer. With vaping and second hand vapor, there are no conclusive studies or parameters, so the disclaimer is necessary.

I don't really see your argument, 100% safe is not the argument here. I have never stated it is the intention or my desire to have vaping regarded as 100% safe. That's your definition not mine.

 

[twgbonehead]

Hogwash, I am assuming you mean the bit where I am talking about taking the chemicals in isolation and not the bit where I talk about feeling safe enough to vape around my family and pets.

As you can read from the mostly conciliatory nature of my post, I don't pretend to know, I have maintained throughout this discussion that I am stating my opinion. I have even stated that I am not sure if I am splitting hairs or being obtuse about it - so to make a leap that I must be scared to eat (ingestion and inhalation are two completely different biological processes by the way) is a stretch.

So hogwash it is then, and yes I will give you a break.

Thanks for giving me a break. I can get fanatical at times. I apologize if I was over the top.

 

[InTheShade]

It's all good twgbonehead, I'm here to learn like everyone else. My opinions are subject to change depending on information I receive. I am actually enjoying the discussion and continue to learn and see other points of view I may have not considered.

So carry on sir...

 

[Razorback]

Also, you don't exactly put your mouth to a fog machine and suck down all the vapor it releases. That is why I do not like when people bring up how it is used in hospital ventilation as well. It is just not the same thing...(coming from an avid vapor)

VG goes in fog machines, hospital ventilation systems use PG, I think???

 

[retired1]

Some folks need to step back and take a break.

In other words, knock it off.

 

[drummerskey]

It's all good twgbonehead, I'm here to learn like everyone else. My opinions are subject to change depending on information I receive. I am actually enjoying the discussion and continue to learn and see other points of view I may have not considered.

So carry on sir...

I agree. I would much rather the conversation be one that has multiple viewpoints in a polite way because if there is a .001% chance that it isn't safe and that discussion happens here, we as the consumer can demand more studies with our dollars instead of just assuming that a few studies make the point, it is all safe so let's blindly continue without asking questions. After all, it affects the vapers and no one else.

I actually can be a little turned off when someone posts a contrary point to vaping being safe and the rest of the forum attacks that person. Additionally Twgbone, you would find that we are actually saying the same thing. As a vaper and a huge cynic, I don't think vaping is 100% safe but I do strongly believe that it is safer than smoking a pack a day like I used to.......even if I knew it was equally safe as smoking; I would probably still vape because I actually enjoy vaping as opposed to feeling like "I had to" smoke and not actually enjoying any of it.

Whether or not one person believes it is 100% safe and I think it likely to be 98% safe is irrelevant, we are both doing it. My posts only had to do with the OP's question and if it were me, I would err on the side of caution and assume it wasn't safe for someone with a heart condition if that person was my family and there wasn't a lot of proof.

 

[zoiDman]

Just My Opinion:

If e-Cigarettes were Allowed to continue as they are Today. And when all the Long Term Studies are Done and Replicated, I believe that the Risk will be to the User of an e-Cigarette. And Not to those who happen to Inhale 2nd Hand Vapor.

I also believe that the Primary Risk will Not come from Nicotine (all though there will be Health Risks associated from Vaping Nicotine). No, the Primary Risk will come from Inhaling Vaporized Flavorings and Artificial Sweeteners.