Americans: do you really want to protect your right to vape?

Status
Not open for further replies.

PhiHalcyon

Moved On
Mar 30, 2009
334
0
Why don't we have PACs in place so our voices will actually be heard? How many people here would be willing to donate $1,000 to a Vapers Rights PAC?

The lobbying that mattered most (in an immediate and practical sense) was all done during the public comment period that just ended a few days ago. For, at this point, it will be the FDA that decides the fate of the ecig; and how the FDA sees and understands its role in implementing the FSPTCA will be the deciding factor that will determine how the ecig will ultimately be regulated.

If the FDA opts to regulate the ecig as a tobacco product (which is, contrary to the misunderstanding of many, the BEST case scenario), then there will likely be some measure of problems for suppliers without a tobacco retailers license, (and/or without an FDA-approved tobacco product to sell), but the worst that ecig users would likely face is a short-term difficulty in obtaining supplies. Thus, in this best case scenario (which is still possible to occur), the need for lobbying would relate to such issues like taxes, flavors, nicotine strength, and where an ecig can and cannot be legally used.

If the FDA opts to regulate the ecig as a drug/device product in a manner similar to NRTs (which is definitely what would have occurred in a pre-FSPTCA world, and is still quite possible to occur now), then the perceived need for lobbying will ultimately, and perhaps even soon, be trumped by profoundly more urgent matters than forming some sort of vapers PAC. Suppliers will need attorneys, and users will need new solutions; but, in either case, resources will be needed somewhere other than in a PAC.
 

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
I really love it when people talk about all the money you save with e-cigs. I don't think I've saved all that much and I've been vaping for seven months.

Yeah and these $120+ a pop(aluminum tube) mods (which are really all that's available) aren't helping that savings out at all. As well as 50 cents to $1 per ONE ml of eliquid.WOW!!! This stuff isn't required by law to be made to any standards (i.e. cGMP) that would increase production cost at all; and the ingredients purchased wholesale cost pennies per ounce. There's no legitimate reason it should cost anywhere near $1 per ml. It's just shameful profit taking.

Consider the average small business making a 15-20% profit margin. Then consider the average e-cig distributor making 100,200,300% margins.(and I've seen the Joyetech wholesale price list so I know what I'm talking about - selling a $3 atomizer for $12 plus shipping).


That's why I'm done buying mods or anymore redundant hardware. The only thing I worry about now are atomizers, inexpensive rechargeable photo batteries(for the mods I have) and eliquid. The atomizers and eliquid I buy from ONE supplier who has the lowest , fairest prices I could find and free shipping. The rechargeable photo batteries tend to last quite some time, but I have an inexpensive source for them as well.
 
Last edited:

tescela

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 28, 2009
536
5
The lobbying that mattered most (in an immediate and practical sense) was all done during the public comment period that just ended a few days ago. For, at this point, it will be the FDA that decides the fate of the ecig; and how the FDA sees and understands its role in implementing the FSPTCA will be the deciding factor that will determine how the ecig will ultimately be regulated.

If the FDA opts to regulate the ecig as a tobacco product (which is, contrary to the misunderstanding of many, the BEST case scenario), then there will likely be some measure of problems for suppliers without a tobacco retailers license, (and/or without an FDA-approved tobacco product to sell), but the worst that ecig users would likely face is a short-term difficulty in obtaining supplies. Thus, in this best case scenario (which is still possible to occur), the need for lobbying would relate to such issues like taxes, flavors, nicotine strength, and where an ecig can and cannot be legally used.

If the FDA opts to regulate the ecig as a drug/device product in a manner similar to NRTs (which is definitely what would have occurred in a pre-FSPTCA world, and is still quite possible to occur now), then the perceived need for lobbying will ultimately, and perhaps even soon, be trumped by profoundly more urgent matters than forming some sort of vapers PAC. Suppliers will need attorneys, and users will need new solutions; but, in either case, resources will be needed somewhere other than in a PAC.

PhiHalcyon, thank you for a very well-articulated response.

Your post appears to imply that the implementation of a Vapers Rights PAC is a binary (either/or) option relative to the other approaches. Why? Shouldn't we reasonably expect that a diversified (multi-pronged) approach would produce a higher probability of protecting vapers access to PVs and right to utilize them indoors?

Thank you again for your post.
 

Kattdaddy

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
PhiHalcyon, thank you for a very well-articulated response.

Your post appears to imply that the implementation of a Vapers Rights PAC is a binary (either/or) option relative to the other approaches. Why? Shouldn't we reasonably expect that a diversified (multi-pronged) approach would produce a higher probability of protecting vapers access to PVs and right to utilize them indoors?

Thank you again for your post.

Sure .. I concur that at the political level, It is always a good thing to cover your bets. In lobbying for our needs, a PAC would go a long way to get our voices heard, but the FDA's weight is already being measured.. the American public has already heard it's message, and a lobby at this point is worthless after the ball is already in motion. For what is to come.. Yet, the future decisions that have not been set in motion may be covered by this. Unfortunately, There is no guarantee, at this point, that the FDA will not pursue a total ban and then we are out of our 1000.oo , which most likely will be pocketed just for the thought of support. Sorry, Not happening here!!
 

Janetda

Super Member
ECF Veteran
I think it's important to remember that the FDA never said it was going to ban e-cigs. They do not by themselves have the power to make them illegal. They said that they consider them to be drugs and drug delivery systems and that they need to undergo the same approval process as any other drug. What they want is a defacto ban (no imports, sales, etc.) until they are approved. We're currently waiting for the judge's decision as to whether or not e-cigs fall under FDA's control as a drug or a tobacco product or perhaps something entirely different.

IMO, it's the state and local jurisdictions that we need to worry about as far as actual laws are concerned. I think on the political front, that's where our efforts should be targeted.
 

tescela

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 28, 2009
536
5
IMO, it's the state and local jurisdictions that we need to worry about as far as actual laws are concerned. I think on the political front, that's where our efforts should be targeted.

Excellent point, Janetda. Imagine the impact of our collective contributions being used to lobby key state and local jurisdictions! As we've seen with smoking bans, once key jurisdictions institute a ban, then it triggers a "me-too" ban in other jurisdictions.

For example, after NYC passed its indoor smoking ban in 2003, countless other local, state and national jurisdictions cited the NYC precedent when pushing for their bans.

Shouldn't we be willing to expend a ton of resources to prevent "opinion leader" jurisdictions like NYC and California from instituting bans of PV sales and/or indoor usage?
 

tescela

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 28, 2009
536
5
I threw out $1,000, because it seemed like a reasonable number to me, and because it would aggregate to substantial sums. However, it doesn't behoove us to anchor too much to a specific number at this point. Ideally, we create a mechanism whereby individuals can obtain some sort of assurance that they won't end up donating heavily while most of the potential beneficiaries choose to donate little or nothing to the cause.

The objective should not be to make people feel guilty about not doing something that they truly cannot do. To the degree that potential beneficiaries freeload by choosing not to do what they can, though...well, their feelings of guilt probably aren't going to garner much sympathy when others are making deep personal sacrifices for the cause.

We currently have a situation in which a small group of individuals are shouldering a disproportionate share of the burden of fighting for a cause that benefits all of us. IMHO, at a bare minimum, we should be brainstorming ways to give the activists as much ammunition as possible. Can you imagine what key activists could accomplish if they were able to deploy a large amount of aggregated contributions to lobbying?

Here is one concrete idea: Challenge Donations (e.g., $10,000 donated by a single entity, contingent on an additional $10,000 being collectively donated by contributors during the following 24 hours). That would create a mechanism whereby individuals could donate $5/$10/$25 at a time [i.e., an amount that is small enough that most anyone could afford to donate].

Here is another idea: automated weekly or monthly donations. Couldn't most any individual out there could afford to sign up to automatically donate $5 a week?
 

critterbug

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 21, 2009
593
81
Herein, VA
Here are a few things - does anyone have a collection of articles or statements on either a state or federal level that address pvs? How many studies have been done to truly show that pvs are a safer nic delivery method than cigs (other than just saying "well, obviously...") or at least as safe as other FDA approved NRTs?

While it may not be feasible atm to get a lab to study the vapor, I think some undegrad senior chemists with the right resources and supervision could study the secondhand vape effects.

Anyway, I'd be happy to draft some articles/letters and collect info we have and put it on a website. But to be honest I don't have enough info and I won't write letters until I have a good respectable foundation. I think I did find an international article on the safety of ecigs as compared with cigs, but it did not go into depth. Anyone have a collection of such stuff?
 

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
How about the Chinese companies that are making the real money off e-cig sales, along with the ECA(the majority of Suppliers), start digging in their pockets and funding some research through US Universities or Research institutions to, at the very least , get some peer reviewable safety data(I'm not talking about drug approval studies-just safety studies) out in the general medical/scientific community. I mean the USA is the the biggest market on the planet, it would be in their best interest to do this. Any other foreign company with a similar product would/should have done that from the start. This is how it normally works!!! The consumers aren't the ones that are ususally forced to pay for the initial product R&D or Governmental safety compliance studies(i.e via the FDA, USDA, FCC, FTC etc...) If the suppliers(foreign or domestic) would have thought of this from the start, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
 

Stubby

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 22, 2009
2,104
1,992
Madison, WI USA
How about the Chinese companies that are making the real money off e-cig sales, along with the ECA(the majority of Suppliers), start digging in their pockets and funding some research through US Universities or Research institutions to, at the very least , get some peer reviewable safety data(I'm not talking about drug approval studies-just safety studies) out in the general medical/scientific community. I mean the USA is the the biggest market on the planet, it would be in their best interest to do this. Any other foreign company with a similar product would/should have done that from the start. This is how it normally works!!! The consumers aren't the ones that are ususally forced to pay for the initial product R&D or Governmental safety compliance studies(i.e via the FDA, USDA, FCC, FTC etc...) If the suppliers(foreign or domestic) would have thought of this from the start, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.

The ECA doe not represent the majority of suppliers. As far as I can tell it has no more then 9 members. Just look at the long list of suppliers at the bottom of the forum page. I wonder how many of those suppliers have given a penny to any research or lobbying for e-cigs. When I first got into e-cigs and was watching the how-to videos from the suppliers I was taken back by what I was seeing. They all looked like they had just stumbled out of bed after a long hard night on the town. Not the type of people I would trust with my kids, or my e-liquid. The failure of the ECA to attract more suppliers and manufactures doesn't give my any confidence in the future of e-cigs.
 

martha1014

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 8, 2009
1,961
37
71
Delhi, LA USA
I think most of the suppliers (espeically the more popular ones) have made enough money off of selling ecigs and supplies. They should we willing to donate money toward this effort. I would be willing to donate a reasonable amount of money. Most people can afford a small donation since we are all saving money by vaping instead of smoking.
 

markarich159

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 30, 2009
1,169
45
PA, USA
The ECA doe not represent the majority of suppliers. As far as I can tell it has no more then 9 members.

Yeah, you're right, but they're the big one's or at least the ones that are capitalized to the greatest extent.

Just look at the long list of suppliers at the bottom of the forum page. I wonder how many of those suppliers have given a penny to any research or lobbying for e-cigs. When I first got into e-cigs and was watching the how-to videos from the suppliers I was taken back by what I was seeing. They all looked like they had just stumbled out of bed after a long hard night on the town. Not the type of people I would trust with my kids, or my e-liquid.

You're again, correct and I couldn't agree more. Common sense regulation in the industry would keep the fly-by-nighters out(who are just looking to make a quick, high-margin buck, with little to no personal investment, off a completely unregulated mish-mosh ; and don't give a crap about product safety or quality control or assurance). Only the serious businessmen who are willing to make a long term investment in a serious, legitimate, quality assured industry would flourish.

The failure of the ECA to attract more suppliers and manufactures doesn't give my any confidence in the future of e-cigs.

I believe this will change when and if the industry is ever legally legitimized through common sense regulation. Real serious businesspersons don't want to invest their capital in an industry that has no legal standing.
 

jj2

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 30, 2009
196,879
212,800
Hundred Acre Wood
The original poster is probably right. Money talks. That makes me very sad indeed---having to bribe our representatives into doing the right thing.
Purchasing power and the power of the consumer is a strong thing too and if ecigs get big enough world wide, there is no stopping it. In fact it's big enough now I don't think there is any shutting it down.
 

JoeMcPlumber

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 7, 2009
169
14
USA
I'm no fan of the ECA but i was thinking about posting a proposal for member vendors to impose a pseudo-tax on their sales, payable directly to whichever politicians need to be purchased.

But that's before i saw that the ECA doesn't have much of a constituency. If all vendors offered a standard donation, (a percentage, like a sales tax), on their check-outs, i'd pay it. But then there'd need to be some accountability, to be sure the money was going to where they said it was.

Also according to Dr. Michael Siegal, our national programs for low-income child health care are dependent upon taxes from analog sales, and that's why politicians aren't keen on seeing tobacco sales in decline. Make of that what you will, but if we could find a way to collectively help offset that revenue loss, (like e.g., donations to child health charities), it'd be good PR and that always helps.

- joe
 

tescela

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 28, 2009
536
5
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread