An idea for avoiding FDA approval or control

[TropicalBob]

I'm going to attempt to retute you point by point, athough that would be easy. You don't seem to accept two things: The intent of the device is to deliver a drug; nicotine is a drug in the way we use it. Those are "givens" to the FDA.

If you see those as accurate, everything else falls in line. If you persist in the silly notion that we are a tobacco product, then, yes, I understand where you're coming from and I also understand where that argument will end.

Now, go find a lawyer if you believe your own contentions.

Believe me when I say I won't address your comments further in this thread. So post away and let others believe or disbelieve your arguments. Read the e-mail; take it to heart; learn; act as you see fit.

 

[BiscuitSlayer]

Myk -

Read this post:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...voiding-fda-approval-control-6.html#post90440

I got it off of the FDA website.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Granted, fighting against the FDA takes some serious organization...

However, and maybe this is directed towards Kate's efforts to get organized...

By taking the three lab tests done on the liquid AND eventually the results from the New Zealand clinical trial (which we will have shortly), could we not make the argument that the electronic cigarette industry has proven the e-cigs to be safe and now it is up to the FDA to place them into a category and provide testing otherwise?

 

[surbitonPete]

After just one month of e-smoking ...I am completely convinced that it is considerably more healthier for me than smoking tobacco...I am not coughing at all any more and I simply 'feel' better...... but the problem is that now I am absolutely terrified that governments are going to get involved and ban it or else tax it so highly that I simply cannot afford it......I do not want to go back to smoking tobacco but I would have to because I am an addict.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

After just one month of e-smoking ...I am completely convinced that it is considerably more healthier for me than smoking tobacco...I am not coughing at all any more and I simply 'feel' better...... but the problem is that now I am absolutely terrified that governments are going to get involved and ban it or else tax it so highly that I simply cannot afford it......I do not want to go back to smoking tobacco but I would have to because I am an addict.

you are not the only one!

 

[Kate]

Lacey, I'm sorry, this isn't very helpful but my opinion is that with the formal studies we have nothing is proven for 99% of eliquids or long term health. I don't see that we have a leg to stand on. The FDA can and will confiscate until proven safe in all cases (not just Ruyan) and only if we can prove safety. The authorities are held responsible for protecting us from any potential new hazards.

I know that's a bit of a definition game, vaping might be safer than smoking and we may have a harm reduction argument but I don't see any substantial evidence or sympathy for that point of view from outside our community.

 

[TropicalBob]

Lacey, I believe this effort is well beyond anything that could be mustered by citizens. It will take lawyers and lobbyists and scientists. It will be expensive. Note that among the rejections by the FDA were two applications from the E-Cig company. Only a very large company has the financial wherewithal and clout to confront the FDA with a presentation that will even be heard, much less looked upon favorably.

If Ruyan, Janty, nJoy, Crown7, Sedanza, GreenCig, Smoke51 and others want a future market for their products they better act now on behalf of e-smoking and all of us.

From that e-mail to Smooth, it's clear a ban on e-smoking devices and liquid does NOT require new regulations, or even a hearing. The laws are in place, as far as the FDA is concerned. Once action is taken, it would be a long and difficult task to reverse that action.

My hope now is that enforcement is less than vigorous, that small shipments to individuals are not confiscated, that companies like Johnson Creek and nJoy are not challenged. Surely the FDA has more important matters in need of attention ....

But I note again: Who is on our side? I assume all of us have read the public comments below newspaper articles. We are despised. Is Big Tobacco our friend? Big Pharmaceutical? Big Health? The President?

We are small group of drug addicts, shaking our fists high and shouting that we've found something better than gums or patches or lozenges to get off Killer Cigarettes. We've found .. vapor. With high concentrations of an identified poison. Highly addictive stuff we sometimes call "juice". Ordered over the Internet. By anyone. Without labels. Or warnings.

You see the problem ..

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Oh, I definitely see the problem. I myself am extremely concerned about the e-liquid and non child proofed bottles. Why do you think NJoy doesn't sell e-liquid? They know it is a problem.

All though small, I think that you are not giving enough credit to what can be done by organizing.

And I am not attempting to prove Health. I have rolled past many items on the shelves that are not FDA approved, should be FDA approved and they make claims regarding health. These lab tests may have been done on mice, but they do show there is some level of safety with the product. This puts the e-liquid into the same category as those other products.

 

[Kate]

Nicotine is a known toxic, addictive drug.

Australia used poisons legislation, the UK tried to do the same. We'll have to wait and see if the FDA will let you poison yourself.

 

[surbitonPete]

We are legally sold poisons of all kinds... to kill germs, to kill vermin, to clean our home...... and there is nothing to stop us consuming any one of them if we wanted to kill ourselves....it's a pity we can't find some kind of legitimate household use for our 'Juice'. how about .....Totally wicked chrome cleaner or something ??

 

[SpaceCadet]

We are legally sold poisons of all kinds...

Including, of course, our taxed-to-the-hilt old 'friend' tobacco

It's the hypocrisy of it all that kills me.

 

[RatInDaHat]

media and awareness are the only outlets i know of in this amazing state. The problem is that awareness does not mean acceptance. Acceptance takes a lot longer to gain than dismissal.

No real ideas, but i will continue with my plans and see where they go.

 

[GabbyD]

I heard a little glimmer of hope for some time, on the news this morning. They were talking about food products which are not what they say they are. Fish that has been dyed to look a certain color and honey which isn't 100% pure honey and even olive oil that is not olive oil. They were saying, in this economy, some companies are cutting corners and just taking the risk because the FDA does not have the resources to come after them. So for now, my hope is that we are further down on that list than food products on every grocery store shelf. Maybe in the meantime I can work my way down on the nicotine % game.

Ugh.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

I heard a little glimmer of hope for some time, on the news this morning. They were talking about food products which are not what they say they are. Fish that has been dyed to look a certain color and honey which isn't 100% pure honey and even olive oil that is not olive oil. They were saying, in this economy, some companies are cutting corners and just taking the risk because the FDA does not have the resources to come after them. So for now, my hope is that we are further down on that list than food products on every grocery store shelf. Maybe in the meantime I can work my way down on the nicotine % game.

Ugh.

I still think this is a huge argument against the FDA for the e-cigs. And I know I keep coming back to peanut butter... but seriously. We have known for two years that something isn't right and now we have a death toll and over 43 states involved.

The fact is that the e-cigs do not fall into the two categories that everyone wants to lump them in. They should be a category of their own. They don't require prescriptions and they aren't taxed (as highly) as tobacco. I am working on the argument that caffeine and nicotine can be seen as the same.

I will work on this more.

 

[nicowolf]

Going back to the argument that our e-liquid is a tobacco product and therefore does not fall under FDA authority, would it be more of a tobacco product if we had them put the roughage back into the liquid - you know a few visible stems and leaves? Then we could just filter the stuff back out ourselves, after the government has allowed it. Maybe they could put the stuff back in that would be too big to fit through a tea ball, or perhaps a coffee filter.

Please bear in mind that I don't venture into this area of the forum often because politics and legal issues only frustrate and enrage me, they do not drive me to any action other than violent overthrow of the current government.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Going back to the argument that our e-liquid is a tobacco product and therefore does not fall under FDA authority, would it be more of a tobacco product if we had them put the roughage back into the liquid - you know a few visible stems and leaves? Then we could just filter the stuff back out ourselves, after the government has allowed it. Maybe they could put the stuff back in that would be too big to fit through a tea ball, or perhaps a coffee filter.

Please bear in mind that I don't venture into this area of the forum often because politics and legal issues only frustrate and enrage me, they do not drive me to any action other than violent overthrow of the current government.

Nicotine water tried that end run by adding a trace of tobbaco and it did not fly unfortunatly. They will let us buy cigs that will kill you, but as for an alternative like the e-cig--I am afraid it is going to be an uphill battle all the way. Politics, Money, and who knows who--that is always the way it is. So its Big Pharma protecting there drugs, the Tobbaco Giants protecting there products v. ????. We need some deep pockets to fund an approval and I wish there was one out there unless "Big tobbaco" wants to get in on it which is not totally out of the question as they have spent a lot of money on testing vaping tobbaco. Feel a little helpless if you know what I mean.

 

[jaeD]

We are legally sold poisons of all kinds... to kill germs, to kill vermin, to clean our home...... and there is nothing to stop us consuming any one of them if we wanted to kill ourselves....it's a pity we can't find some kind of legitimate household use for our 'Juice'. how about .....Totally wicked chrome cleaner or something ??

Actually, 'cleaning' products have a warning stating that it is "in Federal Violation to use the product in any other manner than labeled on the bottle". So, ingesting Clorox is a federal crime.

Whereas e-liquid's sole intent is to be ingested to subdue the nicotine craving. It's not meant for cleaning.

 

[Bellinghamster]

Actually, 'cleaning' products have a warning stating that it is "in Federal Violation to use the product in any other manner than labeled on the bottle". So, ingesting Clorox is a federal crime.

So is copying your CD's to MP3... Vaping is so obviously a good idea vs smoking [with even an ounce of explanation] that no one is gonna turn you into the feds. It's not like you're huffing paint and drooling all over yourself while riding the bus...

I would think with an even halfway plausible excuse, you could get this stuff through... It's not like they are going to spectroscopically analyze every bottle of "cleaner" that comes through...

 

[jaeD]

So is copying your CD's to MP3... Vaping is so obviously a good idea vs smoking [with even an ounce of explanation] that no one is gonna turn you into the feds. It's not like you're huffing paint and drooling all over yourself while riding the bus...

I would think with an even halfway plausible excuse, you could get this stuff through... It's not like they are going to spectroscopically analyze every bottle of "cleaner" that comes through...

I completely agree.

But I also agree with speeding, but I understand that I am going to be held accountable if I am caught.

If it's a law, it's a law. Now, that being said, I'm all for changing a law. But in the mean time, you need to adhere to them while they're in place.

And as far as the FDA is concerned, these e-liquids are unsafe until proven otherwise. So we either adhere to government regulations or get rid of government.

The FDA understands that "legal poisons" are fatal/toxic and things are labeled according as such. However, just like in the case of illegal drugs, they're not labeled nor approved so that they can be labeled. That being said, the FDA needs to see lab analysis before any progress is made in legalizing it.

The customs agents understand that these products are coming in and that they are illegal (given the fact that they're not approved), whereas, boxes of cleaner, they're not told to look out for. I'm sure if the FDA issued a "inspect every box of Clorox that comes through" that every box of Clorox that came through would be spectroscopically analyzed.

 

[Myk]

I'm going to attempt to retute you point by point, athough that would be easy. You don't seem to accept two things: The intent of the device is to deliver a drug; nicotine is a drug in the way we use it. Those are "givens" to the FDA.

If you see those as accurate, everything else falls in line. If you persist in the silly notion that we are a tobacco product, then, yes, I understand where you're coming from and I also understand where that argument will end.

Now, go find a lawyer if you believe your own contentions.

Believe me when I say I won't address your comments further in this thread. So post away and let others believe or disbelieve your arguments. Read the e-mail; take it to heart; learn; act as you see fit.

If the US Founding Fathers had your attitude we'd still be speaking English.
It would've been over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

Caffeine is a drug, your coffee cup is a drug delivery device.
Nicotine is a drug, your cigarettes and pipes are drug delivery devices. (And according to the FDA letters pipe tobacco isn't even a tobacco product.)
Fact of the matter is those are not banned by the FDA even though they are technically drugs even in their natural forms, although they would like to get their hands on them.
Fact is the FDA has tried to get tobacco and failed. They've tried to get vitamins and herbals and failed. I'm sure that eventually they will get them, but that day isn't today.
The government couldn't even manage to ban drug delivery devices for illegal drugs.

If you want to find a lawyer to say these are a tobacco product I would suggest contacting Nicotine Water, they seem to have managed.

I'm sure the FDA will try to ban these, but their approach by this method is easily fought. There is previous case precedent whether you want to admit it or not.
Why do you think the FDA is only doing this to small timers? They're trying to set up precedent to say they've been doing it for X years.

The answer is not to throw up the hands and say we're defeated. The answer is for the e-cig distributers to ban together and hire some lawyers. And since the FDA is trying to get tobacco and claim it's a drug too they may be able to pull in some tobacco lawyers.

If this is not a drug form of nicotine AND it is derived from tobacco it is a tobacco product not a "new drug" any more than smoke is a "new drug" or spitting with chew is drug manufacturing.
There is precedent for this all over with the FDA trying to get their hands on everything lately.

Nicotine water tried that end run by adding a trace of tobbaco and it did not fly unfortunatly. They will let us buy cigs that will kill you, but as for an alternative like the e-cig--I am afraid it is going to be an uphill battle all the way. Politics, Money, and who knows who--that is always the way it is. So its Big Pharma protecting there drugs, the Tobbaco Giants protecting there products v. ????. We need some deep pockets to fund an approval and I wish there was one out there unless "Big tobbaco" wants to get in on it which is not totally out of the question as they have spent a lot of money on testing vaping tobbaco. Feel a little helpless if you know what I mean.

Nicotine Water

I'm finding nothing from the news or FDA since Nicotine Water came back in '08.
Got a link showing that making it a tobacco product did not fly?