And only a few weeks ago, people said it couldn't happen

[jim420]

Now look...and they are putting into the hands of the regulatory agency to police themselves. Historically, regulatory agencies have done such a great job of it.
Okay. they can't make tobacco and nicotine illegal, but they are the Food and DRUG administration. So they can't make nicotine "prescription only"? If you recall, the gum, patch, lozenges used to be by prescriptiion, they could go back to it....and throw other nicotine-containing things in the pot, as well.

House approves FDA tobacco regulation - Capitol Hill- msnbc.com

 

[jlvaughn75]

hmm control control control thats what its all about

 

[Surf Monkey]

Everyone needs to calm down. Most of the panic going on here is based on speculation. Read the bill. It's not an open and shut case against the e-cigarette.

 

[Boston George]

The bill is a setback, but its not end game yet.

 

[martha1014]

Give a thanks to Republician from Indiana, Buyer for mentioning electronic cigarettes. He wanted them to add to the bill harm reduction measures which included the e-cig.He showed a graph that included e-cig and suggested congress proceed without all the red tape attached.

This may help.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Except that the reason Burr wanted to include harm reduction strategies is that the primary ones on the market today are made by RJ Reynolds, the biggest company in his home state.

Dig, people. Dig.

 

[tikva]

I think martha1014 was talking about Buyer (Indiana). Not Burr.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I think martha1014 was talking about Buyer (Indiana). Not Burr.

Yep. My mistake. Sorry about the mixup.

 

[jim420]

Everyone needs to calm down. Most of the panic going on here is based on speculation. Read the bill. It's not an open and shut case against the e-cigarette.

In my experience, any government regulatory agency is going to interpret their powers to give themselves the most power. Keep in mind that these are self regulating bodies, so any interpretation that gives them the ability to expand their power base is gonna be picked up. Maybe not next month, but eventually. What do they have to lose? And to fight it, you have to take it through the federal court system.

I am worried...VERY worried. I know this does not directly apply to this particular topic except in the ways the govt works, but I clearly remember seeing the Vice President, Hubert H. Humphrey, when acting as President of the Senate, raising his hand and swearing before the Senate that LBJ'S "Great Society" social welfare programs would NEVER take more than 15% of the national budget. How monstrous a lie was that?

Chances are that few of you are old enough to know what sodium cyclamates are, but the FDA banned them on ridiculous research saying they caused cancer in laboratory rats. They were being injected with such tremendous doses of it to see the increased incidence of cancer that a human being would have to eat about 50 pounds of it a day to get that kind of dose. They were an artificial sweetner that tasted so good that a lot of people who were not dieting would drink diet drinks (Fresca, Tab...when they very first came out in the early 1960's). The real reason for banning them? It was hurting the sugar industry. (By the way...inject a rat with an equal amount of sweetness of sugar and the rat wouldn't have to worry about cancer...irt would shudder once and drop dead).

The point is: agencies such as this do not need to prove harm to flex their muscles, they do it for the sake of making themselves important. I could cite many more cases of my observations, but you are probably tired of my ramblings already.

--Jim

 

[ramblingrose]

Chances are that few of you are old enough to know what sodium cyclamates are, but the FDA banned them on ridiculous research saying they caused cancer in laboratory rats. They were being injected with such tremendous doses of it to see the increased incidence of cancer that a human being would have to eat about 50 pounds of it a day to get that kind of dose. They were an artificial sweetner that tasted so good that a lot of people who were not dieting would drink diet drinks (Fresca, Tab...when they very first came out in the early 1960's). The real reason for banning them? It was hurting the sugar industry. (By the way...inject a rat with an equal amount of sweetness of sugar and the rat wouldn't have to worry about cancer...irt would shudder once and drop dead).

The point is: agencies such as this do not need to prove harm to flex their muscles, they do it for the sake of making themselves important. I could cite many more cases of my observations, but you are probably tired of my ramblings already.

--Jim

How about this secondhand smoke study: tubes of smoke blown directly into the rats' airways nonstop, leading to the conclusion that 15 minutes of secondhand smoke exposure causes permanent, irreversible damage.

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

I'm waiting.....There's something driving this whole story we haven't seen yet. PM pushing for legislation to eliminate its competition, while allowing the FDA regulatory powers over its vilified products.... There's something going on here behind the scenes we poor consumers just haven't seen yet.....something PM hasn't pulled out of its big, secret lab yet. So, I'm waiting.....

I can only remain resolute in my personal battle - that's within my power to do. I can refuse to go back to analogs.... and find other options, be they an underground network, small packages from overseas, or DIY.

I can also continue to rattle the cages of any and all politicos that will read - my keyboard will be hot and active in blogs, this forum, letters to congressmen and all over the internet. My version of the monkey wrench in the works of corporate greed....

I'm gonna keep making as much noise as I can - remember the slight shift we got in public perception before the monster got voted on? There were numberous articles and opinion pieces that started to show PV's in a positive light - our voices are starting to be heard, and our products are starting to get noticed....the geinie is, indeed out of its bottle, and it will be hearlded in on a cloud of vapor.

 

[TropicalBob]

The distant future is always hard to predict. But, short term, this bill does what I thought would be done: herd smokers into the cigarette corral.

For government, this is win-win. Corporate profits certainly play into this picture, as do taxes. And cigarettes can now be regulated in ways e-devices from China cannot be.

How in debt is the U.S. to China? What's the trade balance situation? How desperate are some corporations in this recession/depression that they need government bailout? Does Washington want to encourage sending money now spent on American tobacco products to China for a tech toy? Not a chance.

But e-smoking is the future. Philip Morris knows that. The goal now is to put some brakes on declining cigarette sales, to keep Big Tobacco profitable (for America's sake!), by discouraging harm reduction profits not made in America (Swedish snus, e-cigs), and to keep needed tobacco taxes flowing into state and federal coffers.

Between now and the future, PM and others will continue developing a nicotine vapor device. Big Pharma can quickly and easily offer quality nicotine liquid to be used in the devices (we have no assurances at all about the purity and safety of any given batch of e-liquid from China).

We're just going to have to wait a bit for final approvals. And we might not like the cost of the devices and liquid. But we have long known the present situation was untenable and would be halted. That time is nearing.

 

[Surf Monkey]

I'm waiting.....There's something driving this whole story we haven't seen yet. PM pushing for legislation to eliminate its competition, while allowing the FDA regulatory powers over its vilified products....

I think you're thinking about it too hard. The answer is simple. Philip Morris knew that regulation was inevitable. Rather than have someone else write the regulations, they stepped in and (essentially) did it themselves, and while they were at it, why not make their competition's newest innovations illegal too?

It really is just that simple.

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

I think you're thinking about it too hard. The answer is simple. Philip Morris knew that regulation was inevitable. Rather than have someone else write the regulations, they stepped in and (essentially) did it themselves, and while they were at it, why not make their competition's newest innovations illegal too?

It really is just that simple.

I have been, before, accused of doing just that - seeing the twists and turns, the rarely used access points where everyone else has tunnel vision. But - just think about it - PM produces tobacco - tons of it! Their image is in the crapper, their product vilified, the masses screaming for their blood.
They're a corporation, their goal is to survive and keep the money flowing into the future with long-range planning. They can certainly see the handwriting on the wall - their deadly products will, in the interests of public health, be contained....they are going to have to shift if they want to stay in business....but nobody can know what they're doing yet for competition reasons. So I wait - the other shoe is, I believe, off the foot, but not ready to drop to the floor just yet.

 

[skyward]

tropical bob i think its time to post that link for nicotine price parity again!!!

 

[tbremer]

So im pretty new to these E-cigs and just for the past couple days have been reading on the legal stuff thats going on. Heres my personal opinion on it, hope I dont offend anyone by getting too involved after only a few days of being here... My personal opinion on it is that this is too good of a product to just completely ban. I think that there definately WILL be an approved company producing these. It will be as a smoking alternative, not a medical device, and there will only be one company approved by the FDA. What this product will cost, who knows, but it is way too profitable to just ban by the government, they just need to figure out how to get their hands in the profits. The government is ignorant in how theyre affecting us citizens (or rather they just dont care, which just makes me depressed, so I tell myself they dont know what theyre doing), but they arent stupid when it comes to lining their pockets.

This technology isnt going anywhere, they may be comparable in price to analogs, but they wont completely disappear. Its kind of like pot, if it wasnt so looked down upon by society, itd be perfectly legal (and taxed). E cigs on the other hand, as long as there is proper representation, SHOULD be desirable by the public vs analogs. Ive learned in the past few years that the government is just playing one giant game and unfortunately us citizens are the ones having to suffer the consequences. When they pick up a "go straight to jail card", its us that are going straight to "jail", not them.

I think the best place to write to and pursue would be non profit health organizations that supposedly really do care about health.



disclaimer: In no way am I condoning marijuana use or distribution.

 

[eric]

tbremer,

That's a very reasonable assessment of the future of electronic cigarettes, though the "one" FDA-approved American distributor of electronic cigarettes would make it a Monopoly, which wouldn't be allowed. All of the Big Tobacco manufacturers will likely share in the splendor of the E-cigarette market profits, as will the US Government through taxation of these products. I don't, however, see Big Pharm getting their hands too far into electronic cigarettes as Big Tobacco simply wouldn't let that happen.

 

[tbremer]

tbremer,

That's a very reasonable assessment of the future of electronic cigarettes, though the "one" FDA-approved American distributor of electronic cigarettes would make it a Monopoly, which wouldn't be allowed. All of the Big Tobacco manufacturers will likely share in the splendor of the E-cigarette market profits, as will the US Government through taxation of these products. I don't, however, see Big Pharm getting their hands too far into electronic cigarettes as Big Tobacco simply wouldn't let that happen.

Very true on the monopoly, I wont argue that as I dont have enough information (although between the government and big tobacco already, kind of feels like a monopoly, doesnt it?). As far as the Big Pharm getting involved, we need a large organization with lots of money to fight the big tobacco companies. By fight I mean represent and "push" onto the public. Not so much looking for them to manufacturer these products, but more so to endorse and represent these products as being safer than analogs. Society will beleive just about anything, someone needs to "feed" them the truth. We need someone with some leverage to back the ideology of e cigs. Why would big tobacco (the most likely source for e cigs in the future) want to spend so much money and effort into developing something without any pressure to do so? I dont know, im not a lawyer or politician, but what I do know is that this is too big of a product to completely ban, it just needs someone to really push it.

 

[Mossman]

Why would big tobacco (the most likely source for e cigs in the future) want to spend so much money and effort into developing something without any pressure to do so? I dont know, im not a lawyer or politician, but what I do know is that this is too big of a product to completely ban, it just needs someone to really push it.

Admittedly, this is pure speculation on my part, but I would think it's almost a certainty that the big tobacco companies have already positioned themselves to jump on the e-cig bandwagon... If reports are true that they've already got marketing plans and designs for marijuana cigarettes if/when that ever becomes legal, it would be foolish of them not to prepare to take advantage of a burgeoning e-cigarette trade.

Most of the heavy lifting has already been done for them... It's not like they need to design a device from scratch... I don't think any of the Chinese manufacturers hold U.S. patents, so odds are better than average that PM and RJR have already registered their own designs, or slight variations on existing designs... Hell, they'll probably out-source manufacturing to China anyway...

R&D won't cost them too much... They have the benefit of learning from the failures and successes of others who entered the market before them... They would have to conduct fundamental research into determining what the average smoker's preferences are in terms of flavor, nicotine content, etc, but they can already see what kind of market exists. From there, it's not too much of a strain to figure out how to expand it.

They already process nicotine in a liquid form... They spray it on tobacco to fortify it with additional addictive properties.. or at least they used to.

Pressure doesn't need to be placed on the tobacco industry to develop this product. They're just waiting to see which way the wind is gonna blow... They'll' let someone else put pressure on the FDA to approve it... If it gets enough support, then they've got a market... If no one does anything about it, and it gets banned, then that tells them there wasn't enough interest to support a viable market in the first place... After all, big tobacco isn't interested in small potatoes.

that's just my opinion.

 

[Stubby]

I think the best place to write to and pursue would be non profit health organizations that supposedly really do care about health.

As it stands that is not likely going to happen. The non-profit public health advocates have become a corrupted brew of anti-tobacco/nicotine ideology driven fanaticism and money from big pharmaceuticals. They have no interest in actual public health. Certainly not when it comes to tobacco/nicotine users. I would include nearly all of them; American Cancer Society, American lung association, American Heart association etc, etc.

A good exercise in frustration is trying to actually reason with these groups.