Just thinking outloud

[Vapor Pete]

Ok, about the ban:
I was thinking last night, and there are so many different angles the FDA can look at this, and so many ways we can look at it. But I saw a post where someone said that cigarettes are so woven into that fabric of America (or something to that effect) that thats way they will never be banned.
Well that got me thinking about the fact then that Americans have been addicted to nicotine since we could roll up tobacco and light with our own two hands. We are not addicted to tobacco, just the nicotine. This is an approved drug. Cigarettes are the delivery method. So with that logic, PVs are not a NEW DRUG, they are only a NEW delivery method if they contain nicotine. If they dont contain nicotine, but just PG and flavor, they are simply "Personal Flavored Vaporizers". They want to ban the flavoring so it wont attract kids? Better take the Cinnomon flavored Nicotine gum off the shelf!
So the bottom line in my line of thought here is this:
If I buy a cigarette (approved), and sprinkle the tobacco (approved) on my salad and eat it to get a nicotine (approved) fix, then with the FDAs logic, would that not make the salad a new delivery method, (appealing to people of all ages), requiring them to ban tobacco (source of nicotine) as well as salad (NEW delivery method)?
I know this is a far fetched anology, but do you see my point? Thats why Im just thinking outloud.

-VP

 

[Hangar]

Yes, it would appear that only a ban on liquid which contains nicotine should be banned for testing and regulation.

I dont see how the FDA can place a ban on the hardware itself or the non-nicotine liquid...at least thats My opinion.

I think we'll be vaping 0 nic juice for awhile

 

[ejfan1977]

Very good point Pete! Continue to think outloud....

 

[Vapor Pete]

Thanks folks. My rants may not make alot of sense sometimes, but I know what Im thinking! LOL!! Im very passionate about this. I have found something that helps after nearly 20 years of smoking, and Im ...... that the FDA cant see the logic behind it! So on I goooooo.................

-VP

 

[Steph2323]

Thanks folks. My rants may not make alot of sense sometimes, but I know what Im thinking! LOL!! Im very passionate about this. I have found something that helps after nearly 20 years of smoking, and Im ...... that the FDA cant see the logic behind it! So on I goooooo.................

-VP

Good thinking! We need all of the best ideas to come up with some sort of plan of action
Stephanie

 

[Boston George]

The FDA could ban the e-cig unit itself as a medical device. Currently, it seems that they are just interested in controlling how the product is marketed. If people stop calling them 'healthy and safe' we might be ok.

Something that has been discussed in the past: What if we made e-juice from tobacco derived nicotine. That way it IS a tobacco product thus getting past the FDA. Make the juice as pure as possible but have trace amounts of the plant still present.

I am not the first person to suggest this but have any e-juice makers tried this?

 

[strayling]

I am not the first person to suggest this but have any e-juice makers tried this?

I read an ingredients report from one of the Chinese liquid manufacturers which stated that the source for the nicotine is in fact tobacco. 'Fraid I've lost the link though

There are probably rules somewhere that define how impure something has to be to still count as a processed version of the original plant. Personally, I'm not sure I like the idea of deliberately leaving impurities in the liquid to satisfy some nonsensical (in this context) legal definition.

Edit: That came across a bit grumpy. I'm not taking a swipe at you, just at the absurdity of the hoops we have to consider jumping through.

 

[Boston George]

Edit: That came across a bit grumpy. I'm not taking a swipe at you, just at the absurdity of the hoops we have to consider jumping through.

No, I agree and don't see your post as an attack at all.

But frankly I don't care if they have to label the stuff as recycled kitty litter. Just as long as it stays legal. The Law is all about hoops and jumping through them.

 

[ratfink]

The FDA could ban the e-cig unit itself as a medical device. Currently, it seems that they are just interested in controlling how the product is marketed. If people stop calling them 'healthy and safe' we might be ok.

I don't actually think they can outright ban a device, they can schedule it a Class III device which would require extensive testing, quality control and a doctor's prescription. But the requirements for that are it be a life supporting device. Even as a class III theoretically someone still could make the devices and you could buy them with a prescription.

 

[Vaporpuff]

If we were to attempt to extract the nicotine from tobacco I assume it would be better to use a cigar rather than cigarettes?

 

[the88thcrazy]

Yes, it would appear that only a ban on liquid which contains nicotine should be banned for testing and regulation.

I dont see how the FDA can place a ban on the hardware itself or the non-nicotine liquid...at least thats My opinion.

I think we'll be vaping 0 nic juice for awhile

Well, i don't know. the nicotine liquids are only safe to inhale, and can be dangerous if swallowed. i read all that i could and watched several videos about e-cigs before mine came in the mail yesterday, and i STILL managed to get a few small bits of liquid in my mouth for the first couple hours. (yes, i was primer puffing) luckily, i was just using the cartridges that came with my e-cig, so nothing dangerous was going to happen, but i could see a new user easily using these things wrong.

I think that FDA regulation would be the way to go. it'd probably produce a much better product, but i feel that the result is that pre-filled cartridges would be made the only way available to use e-cigs.

it's just my theory, but it'd be the way i'd see it going down. i'd be fine with it though. if the FDA could make the product safer to use, yet more expensive, i could definately see it. this would probably allow a way to let them get taxed. which isn't good for us, but it'd get the government on our side.

 

[Vapor Pete]

I dont want you guys to miss my point here and get too deep with this. Again, my thinking is along the lines that it has been said cigarettes would never be banned due to their rampant use since the beginning of time. Im taking that thought and spinning it so that it appeals to the FDA on that level. Smokers are not addicted to cigarettes, we are addicted to nicotine. A cigarette is ONLY a nicotine delivery device. We have found a new delivery device, thus avoiding the NEW DRUG status. Im saying that if they want to ban PV's (a new DELIVERY DEVICE for nicotine) they need to ban the CURRENT delivery device also. Make sense? As stated above, if I dump my tobacco on a salad and eat it, the salad now becomes a NEW nicotine delivery device. So they would then need to ban the tobacco (source of nicotine) and the salad.
As to some of the posts above: yes... we NEED to stop saying these will, can, or might help you stop smoking, in fact I would take any sentence that mentions HEALTH out of the advertising. As we know, commen sense will prevail when consumers are deciding to buy or not.
I am having trouble with why or how the FDA can say "Medical Device"? Its a nicotine delivery method!!!! Again, so are cigarettes. And the only thing cigarettes do for you "medically" is send you to the doctors.
So bottom line here: If we stay with "e-cigs are only a new nicotine delivery method" I believe that would force the FDA to realize the broadness of their scope. And how petty this actually is. Let the PEOPLE CHOOSE their own NICOTINE DELIVERY METHOD!!

-VP

 

[TropicalBob]

Pete: Your common sense is fine, but your reality-check is incorrect.

When nicotine is obtained from combusting tobacco, it is a natural derivative of a natural process. It has a long history. It comes from an industry largely unregulated.

When nicotine is extracted from a plant, or created synthetically in any way, it is a drug. It is not tobacco. It is not potato. It is a drug that is then used either as an insecticide or mixed with other chemicals to create a liquid nicotine addicts can inhale.

That's why cigarettes don't yet need Food and Drug Administration regulation. That's why nicotine delivery devices do.

This is NOT the way to help addicts get off cigarettes, but it is the reality of the situation. And it's why e-cigs are being banned around the world. They're not natural in any way, they are for delivery of a drug, and they must go through the same hoops as Big Pharma's Nicotrol Inhaler.

 

[Vapor Pete]

Pete: Your common sense is fine, but your reality-check is incorrect.

When nicotine is obtained from combusting tobacco, it is a natural derivative of a natural process. It has a long history. It comes from an industry largely unregulated.

When nicotine is extracted from a plant, or created synthetically in any way, it is a drug. It is not tobacco. It is not potato. It is a drug that is then used either as an insecticide or mixed with other chemicals to create a liquid nicotine addicts can inhale.

That's why cigarettes don't yet need Food and Drug Administration regulation. That's why nicotine delivery devices do.

This is NOT the way to help addicts get off cigarettes, but it is the reality of the situation. And it's why e-cigs are being banned around the world. They're not natural in any way, they are for delivery of a drug, and they must go through the same hoops as Big Pharma's Nicotrol Inhaler.

Thanks Bob,
I understand your point, and it makes total sense. Please be aware though that I do not need a reality check. I am WELL aware of the reality. I am merely pointing out another angel to the argument. As my thread title indicates, I am just "thinking outloud". I'm saying only that technically, we are addicted to nicotine, and cigarettes are only the delivery method... this (e-cigs) is a NEW delivery method. I completely understand that it is not a viable argument. But then again, neither is a doctor with a degree in medicine saying they should be banned because Propelyne Glycol MAY be lung irritant.
-VP

 

[Vapor Pete]

please see my post about how to beat the ban!
-VP

 

[Vaporpuff]

please see my post about how to beat the ban!
-VP

That's is actually pretty funny and interesting at the same time. Keep looking into it and the process behind it. I'll help as well.