Another Q about disposable ecig nicotine strengths vs real cigarettes

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Hi there

I'm still not quite understanding the intake of nicotine with the strengths available in disposable ecigs (or any ecig) vs cigarettes.

This time i mean the actual intake of nicotine and the consequential addiction level one may be inviting by smoking ecigs.

Quite apart from the level i need - thru this method of transmission - to feel satisfied, what do the ecig strengths equate to . How do i interpret the nicotine strengths vs what i get from smokes?

I've just ordered WC Mini FLings of 24 mg. I think there was 1 or 2 levels higher than that also available. With smokes, I smoke 12mg cigarettes - you cant get any higher than 16mg smokes in Australia.

so - with 24 mg i am doubling my nicotine intake right?

Mmm - think i might have invited more addiction...

Really keen to know what the deal is with disposable ecig strengths, as advertised, and how to interpret them.
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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Absolutely NOT! Nicotine absorption via vaping is very different than from smoking. Many, many threads on this. Highlight:

1. Vaping absorption not known exactly, but thought to be less than 50%, and probably 30 - 40%.
2. Absorption of nicotine through lungs = 5 seconds to brain, big dopamine/serotonin dump ("Wow" feeling of satisfaction)
3. Absorption of nicotine through mouth and nasal passages = 30 seconds to brain. Far less "wow."
4. 599 chemical additives in tobacco. 100+ for increased absorption of nicotine uptake in the body, etc. - Far more intense behavioral reinforcement response (more addictive)
5. None of those chemicals in vaping.
6. See one of many reports out there:

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.pa.36.040196.003121

In other words, vaping is far less addictive. Science does not even consider "the patch" as addictive, for example. Vaping more so (oral delivery), but magnitudes of intensity less than smoking chemical laden tobacco. Do not worry. Vaping is considered no more harmful than a cup of coffee by most medical professionals in the know. Power up and Vape ON!
 

Bob Chill

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Just experiment and see how you "feel" and then draw your own conclusions. Your body will tell you when you've had too little, enough, or too much. Too much is unmistakable. Once you experiment with different strengths and vape session lengths you'll be dialed in in just a couple weeks. At least with the nic part. Chasing flavors is probably a lifetime quest.
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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Awesome answer, thankyou. WOndering now that 24 mg might be too low - but whatever, I'm going to make some mistakes along the my way to finding what I like.

24 is on the high side, and not a bad place to start. First few days, extra strength is good to have on hand for those "moments." As Bob Chill said, experiment and find out what works for you. Good Luck! Welcome to Vaping Nirvana.
 

Spazmelda

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Bill gave an excellent answer. I think the time to reward (or time of delivery) issue is a big BIG one. And lack of other synergistic chemicals is (IMO) huge as well.

If you think about it... Do you really have any idea how much nicotine you are getting from cigarettes? We know the average nic content of each brand, and the average absorption rate determined in studies, but we really don't know how much we are/were getting. How do you know when you've had enough nicotine from cigarettes? You just know. You smoke until you feel satisfied and then you stop. Sometimes you are satisfied with one, sometimes you smoke a couple within a short period. Some people can smoke 4 a day, some people smoke 4 packs a day. Some people take deep long drags straight to the lungs, some people smoke more like they are smoking a cigar. All of these variables are going to affect how much nicotine is absorbed. Smokers seem to titrate their nicotine instinctively. Iirc, studies show that smokers will smoke until they reach their preferred level and then stop (not to say that level doesn't change over time and with build up of tolerance levels), but we aren't sitting around thinking, "oh, I think I've absorbed 1 mg of nicotine already so it's time to go back inside and get back to work on that report I've been avoiding".

My personal experience supports the idea that ecigs are not as addictive as cigarettes. Before I started vaping, if I was in a place or situation where I couldn't smoke, after an hour or so I'd be climbing the walls, looking for a chance to slip out and burn one. Now things are completely different for me. If I can't vape, it's really okay. I don't get that, "I must have a smoke NOW!" I can go hours without even really thinking about it. But that's just one persons experience there. Others will have different experiences.

Hopefully researchers will get a better idea of how much nicotine we absorb in future experiments. I suspect it will end up being hugely variable between different people though.
 

mkbilbo

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Hi there

I'm still not quite understanding the intake of nicotine with the strengths available in disposable ecigs (or any ecig) vs cigarettes.

This time i mean the actual intake of nicotine and the consequential addiction level one may be inviting by smoking ecigs.

Quite apart from the level i need - thru this method of transmission - to feel satisfied, what do the ecig strengths equate to . How do i interpret the nicotine strengths vs what i get from smokes?

I've just ordered WC Mini FLings of 24 mg. I think there was 1 or 2 levels higher than that also available. With smokes, I smoke 12mg cigarettes - you cant get any higher than 16mg smokes in Australia.

so - with 24 mg i am doubling my nicotine intake right?

Mmm - think i might have invited more addiction...

Really keen to know what the deal is with disposable ecig strengths, as advertised, and how to interpret them.


Exactly what is "more addicted" anyway? I see people worrying over this concept but nobody actually seems to be able to define it. It's starting to look like some silly straw man created by rabid anti-nicotine zealots.

My understanding of nicotine addiction is there is a level of nicotine in the blood stream the smoker becomes used to. And they seek to maintain that level. Falling below the level causes "cravings" and they smoke.

The absorption of nicotine is different in vaping compared to smoking. It's slower, likely less per "puff", because it takes place in the mouth and nasal passages. Absorption in the lungs with the nicotine carried by smoke is faster and the uptake is likely greater. Vapers would be seeking to maintain a level of nicotine--to which they became accustomed while smoking--but with a different "delivery system". The exact amounts of available nicotine in vaping, the speed of absorption, and the amount absorbed over some period of time vaping, are things we don't have nailed down at this point. To measure such would require studies that involve actual blood tests. Something not much of which has been done yet.

But the simple fact is, all vapers have some level of nicotine to which they are accustomed and will seek that same level as vapers. What this means depends on the person and the variability is quite striking.

With smokes, I smoke 12mg cigarettes...

No single cigarette contains that much nicotine. If you mean a pack, that would make some sense. I don't know how much is in a single pack in your country (it varies, here in the US, a pack is 20 cigarettes) but to come up with the per cigarette amount, you'd have to divide the pack amount by the number of cigarettes in the pack.

But what this means in terms of how much nicotine you actually get? I have no idea.

The amount of nicotine put in a cigarette or e-liquid does not tell you how much nicotine is available when combusted (cigarettes) or vaporized (e-liquids). A few tests put e-liquids maybe around 50% is available. So one ml of 24mg/ml liquid would yield roughly 12mg available nicotine total (not per puff but total for the entire ml).

Next question is how much of the available nicotine is absorbed? To find that out, we'd have to do blood tests. That is, if you want exact numbers.

There is no direct correlation between the amount of nicotine in a product and the amount circulating in your blood stream. It's more complex than some straight across kind of figuring. There are too many variables in there to say X mg e-liquids put Y mg nicotine into circulation. Vapers (like smokers) go by what their bodies tell them. I reach for my PV to vape because my body "wants some". Just like when I smoked. I lit up because my body "wanted some". The "some" being nicotine. I'm maintaining some level of nicotine in my system. Whatever level that may be.

I don't buy there is such a thing as "more" addicted. At least not in this case. Smokers and vapers both (as well as other users of other products containing nicotine... gum and patches and inhalers included) seek to maintain a level of nicotine. If there is any meaning to "more addicted", it's an issue of genetics. There may be people who are predisposed to stronger attachments to nicotine than others may be. I suspect I may be one such person. My nicotine withdrawal experiences were all horrific, awful, nightmarish things. I don't think I can quit nicotine. Not without some major medical advance or some such. Something very futuristic and Star Trek and all.

Nicotine levels are a very personal thing. The amount that works for one person is too much for another or too low for a third. There is no way to predict what will work for any one person. Only experience can tell you how much works for you.

Short of actual blood tests, the only way to find your nicotine level in vaping is by experience.
 

Spazmelda

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No single cigarette contains that much nicotine. If you mean a pack, that would make some sense. I don't know how much is in a single pack in your country (it varies, here in the US, a pack is 20 cigarettes) but to come up with the per cigarette amount, you'd have to divide the pack amount by the number of cigarettes in the pack.

Actually, I think most cigarettes do contain around 10 mg of nicotine per cigarette. However, they only deliver around 1 mg. I can't find a good link, but here's an abstract: Quantification of nicotine in commerci... [Biochem Mol Biol Educ. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

That's just the first thing I came up with. I know I've seen charts somewhere, but I can't remember where.

ETA: here is another reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632983/

Quote, " Currently, most manufactured cigarettes contain 10–15 mg of nicotine per cigarette. On average, smokers systemically absorb 10% of the nicotine contained in the rod, with a typical systemic intake of 1–2 mg of nicotine per cigarette.13 "
 
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mkbilbo

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Actually, I think most cigarettes do contain around 10 mg of nicotine per cigarette. However, they only deliver around 1 mg. I can't find a good link, but here's an abstract: Quantification of nicotine in commerci... [Biochem Mol Biol Educ. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

That's just the first thing I came up with. I know I've seen charts somewhere, but I can't remember where.

ETA: here is another reference: Reducing the nicotine content to make cigarettes less addictive

Quote, " Currently, most manufactured cigarettes contain 10–15 mg of nicotine per cigarette. On average, smokers systemically absorb 10% of the nicotine contained in the rod, with a typical systemic intake of 1–2 mg of nicotine per cigarette.13 "

Ah, I stand corrected. But that gets back to the issue of how much becomes available on combustion, how much is taken in by the smoker (number of puffs and such), and how much is absorbed.

The charts I had in mind came from tests of the nicotine available in the smoke.

And, really, the available nicotine is more important than the exact content of the liquid or cigarette or what have you. Pulling numbers out of the air here, suppose one cig had 24mg of which only 1.2mg became available (by combustion and in the smoke) up against one that, say, had only 12mg but yielded 2.0mg of available nicotine. You'd be "getting more" from the one with the lower content.

That last bit about "systemically absorbed" is something we don't have for e-liquids. At least not yet. If I have (and real numbers here) 1.6ml of 18mg/ml liquid in my clearo, there's 28.8mg (roughly) of nicotine in my clearo right now.

Of that, how much becomes available in the vapor? How much is absorbed over X time (or Y puffs or whatever) and how much ends up actually in my blood stream?

Um... dunno?

(And you can throw more variables in. Such as I never consume the entire 1.6ml my clearo can hold. After about 1ml, the wicks don't work as well--work, yes, but not as well--so I'm using roughly 1ml at a time which means roughly 18mg of nicotine at a time. But not all is going into the vapor. Of the part that is going into the vapor, I'm not absorbing all of it. And... and... and... :) )

There's no simple, straight across equivalence. I'm not sure there can be. The absorption in vaping is very different from smoking. And even in the fairly brief time I've been around ECF, vapers go in all kinds of directions. Not predictable ones either. I've run into other former 2 pack a day smokers of "lights" that went in very different directions than myself. I went much lower on nic levels. Most times, I use around a 6. I start my day with 12-18 most times then switch as I get going. Drop way, way down in the evenings (unless I want to stay up for hours on end). And have only two or three small bottles of 24 around. Don't use them much at all.

But I've run into other 2 pack a day former smokers of "lights" (with roughly equivalent nicotine contents as mine) that went in the exact other direction. Going much higher on nic levels. 24 and 36. One guy who used up to 48! Which level I couldn't even look at without having a week of sleepless nights. :)

So... who the heck knows? Be an interesting study kind of thing. But I ain't written a grant in years and years now....
 

Spazmelda

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I agree. How much is in a cigarette is not really as important as how much is absorbed (unless you decide to eat the cigarette, I guess). Total nicotine content of a cigarette is not really relevant to the conversation, but since it was brought up I wanted to make sure the info was out there.

Here is an interesting article I ran across when I was looking for info for my last post, more relevant to ecigs: How much nicotine do we get from e-cigarettes? - ECF InfoZone
 
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