- Status
You gotta ask yourself 3 questions. (thankyou L ron Hubbard). Has it improved something in your life? Has it improved your family's life? Has it improved society in general. If your answering yes, you are doing a fine thing. Kudos.
You will never convince everyone to get informed, if ... was only used by well-informed people that knew what to expect and at what dosages it would have been seen as a gift from god, instead it was used at parties by people who had no idea what it did just because people told them "its wonderful and the best thing that ever happened to me" or because they "thought it would be cool," similar to the way e-cigs are promoted nowdays (many of the sites selling them feature half dressed skanks holding an e-cig with claims of how it has 0 of the harmful chemicals from tobacco, is well researched and totally safe, and helps you score fine hotties every day). I actually dislike the public being made aware of it, as you can see with the swine flu and the bird flu and mad cow disease before it the news will take a small bit of information, blow it out of proportion, followed by people catching part of the report who then go to work and school and further blow it out of proportion with even less information, and pretty soon there are a bunch of panicking people making rash decisions with no real knowledge about the subject. I found e-smoking useful and got my sister and grandmother (smoker for 50 years) to quit cigarettes with it, and I think it is a wonderfully effective replacement for tobacco so I have nothing against the product itself. I have a few years of experience in the study of medicine/chemistry/drugs, and am on my way to med school, and I can tell you that the basic formula of VG or PG/nicotine (from tobacco to nicotine hcl crystals took me a couple of hours at home)/alcohol and or water is about as safe as breathing air outside (I know the word of some faceless guy on the internet isn't reassuring, but I have been researching this for a while now and am rather comfortable with it). Attempting to get useful information about the effects of eliquids off this forum is highly inefficient and often misleading (very useful for reviews of the hardware though) because most people here are going off small clips and statements that they have modified to fit their argument and often not even from a reliable source. I've found that digging through reports about the substances, as well as having a working knowledge of the body on a chemical and physiological level have been immensely useful in determining where the effects of various drugs are coming from and preventing unfounded fear as well as unfounded complacency. I will do my best to answer any questions you have, feel free to make a list (public or private). I try to provide as much information as I can to the community as I am aware that everyone has their own area of interest and some people just need an honest answer from someone who is familiar with a different area of study, and I promise not to pull some random bull**** out of my ... and act like it's the truth to sound smart or whatever, just trying to help.
As far as wading through information, every public source of information on e-liquids except the lab reports that the early suppliers published have been completely useless, unverifiable, and often just crap that has been repeated so many times that it has become a "word of mouth fact." Also all the public policy debate has little use for me, because if it became illegal to sell I can make my own (took me 2 hours to turn a bag of tobacco into shining nicotine hcl crysals), I don't flaunt it in public and I use it when/wherever I want and never had any problems ("what's that?" "it's an inhaler to help me breathe better" "oh ok"), and attempting to "win a moral battle" only causes stress and provides the other side someone to fight against (better to just inform yourself the best you can, provide those that ask with the information you can, and accept that not everyone wants to or ever will be informed about it and move on).
That said, the forum IS useful for supplier reviews (screw Steve for never getting those lab reports he promised to have done 3 months ago btw), hardware reviews, subjective experiences (side effects people have had when first switching for example), social support, and of course a laugh. None of those really require systematic searching
Glad you're still here though Kate, you are pretty much the only person who was active when I joined the forum in november that is still active now, and always spreading the love
As far as wading through information, every public source of information on e-liquids except the lab reports that the early suppliers published have been completely useless, unverifiable, and often just crap that has been repeated so many times that it has become a "word of mouth fact." Also all the public policy debate has little use for me, because if it became illegal to sell I can make my own (took me 2 hours to turn a bag of tobacco into shining nicotine hcl crysals), I don't flaunt it in public and I use it when/wherever I want and never had any problems ("what's that?" "it's an inhaler to help me breathe better" "oh ok"), and attempting to "win a moral battle" only causes stress and provides the other side someone to fight against (better to just inform yourself the best you can, provide those that ask with the information you can, and accept that not everyone wants to or ever will be informed about it and move on).
That said, the forum IS useful for supplier reviews (screw Steve for never getting those lab reports he promised to have done 3 months ago btw), hardware reviews, subjective experiences (side effects people have had when first switching for example), social support, and of course a laugh. None of those really require systematic searching
Glad you're still here though Kate, you are pretty much the only person who was active when I joined the forum in november that is still active now, and always spreading the love 
Suspect presence of Strayling irony....
Actually I am familiar with fuzzy logic, although I'll admit that the theoretical side of the math makes me dizzy. The perils of getting a CompSci degree.
Actually I'm not sure, they are in HCl salt form and seemed quite stable, they sat out under low heat for a little less than an hour with no noticeable decomposition (freebase nicotine turns yellow almost immediately upon exposure to air), but after that I dissolved them in glycerine and vapped it up. Since it is being carried by the glycerol vapor I saw no reason to use freebase nicotine which decomposes so rapidly, and it worked quite well (vapped like crazy after I added a little vodka to it), no residue in atomizer and none of the extra chemicals found in commercial e-liquids (it was slightly bland but perfectly smokeable, I need to find a well-researched safe-to-inhale flavoring..). It was also a very smooth extraction, no emulsions or crazy soaps formed or any of the stuff that usually gunks up an extraction (If I remember right I added some non-iodized salt to the initial water extraction to help avoid emulsion but I'm not sure if it was necessary).
I used:
Distilled water
Naptha (I want to try it again with d-limonene because it would be nice to have an all-organic extraction without anything flammable)
Citric acid and HCl (one could use either/or for the steps involving these, I started with citric but then used HCl for the final because I didn't want any extra citric acid in the product. In case you can't tell I was making it up as I went along but it turned out wonderful)
Sodium Carbonate (One could use sodium hydroxide or another base, I didn't have pH papers at the time and didn't want harsh pH spikes or a strongly basic solution)
OPTIONAL:
Sodium Polyacrylate (Non toxic stuff that binds chemically to water, it's what that "fake snow, just add water" stuff they sell in stores around christmas time is made of, also very cheap from chem suppliers but not totally necessary anyway and can be replaced with some other stuff if you want, use what you have I won't go into detail)
Alcohol (no water in it, denatured alcohol or 99% isopropyl available from drug stores, and by the way if you don't see it on the shelf they can order it for you, if they say they can't ask them to please check because every single one I've been to said that and then they looked and there it was, I used to have a sweet hookup at the local grocery store the pharmacist would sell me a carton (like 20) of pint sized bottles for 10 bucks because my friend worked there)
Procedure:
1. 2-3 soaks in hot distilled water with a bit of citric acid (having extra isn't really important because it wont lower the pH to dangerous levels no matter how much you add and it is gone in the next step anyway, but don't get carried away: couple of grams is more than enough to get everything, and this only needs to be added to the first soak the others can just use distilled water). Soak in hot water 10-15 min, filter through coffee filter (lab funnel filter was too slow and there are no tiny bits of sediment anyway so the filtered liquid was perfectly clear), return any tobacco chunks from filter to flask (best to use erlenmeyer flask because you can hold it upside down and the shredded tobacco clumps together and prevents any from falling out so you don't have to transfer anything back, though one could use any glass or possibly metal container) then add more water and repeat 1-2 times, combining all the liquid extracts)
Optional: I tossed some sodium polyacylate in there (not much) to soak up some of the water then filtered it out. I wanted to get the solvent amounts lower as I went along so that my final step would have less to evap and I would also be able to have more concentrated solutions to ensure a higher yield during solvent transfers. This is totally not necessary and you should have a good yield without, I was trying to speed up the process because I had ran out of juice and I had a jar of it handy. One could just use the first two tobacco water extractions as most of the nicotine is in them anyway, and that would also cut down on solvent amount (I wouldn't boil it down, nicotine doesn't like heat and it is a lot of wasted time and possibly messy), or just do with more water it won't make much diff and I'm probably just confusing the non-chemists reading this.
2. To tobacco-water solution added sodium carbonate (bubbles form from CO2 release so don't dump a whole bunch in, just add a little, let it fizz up while swirling, then once bubbles go down add a little more) until bubbling finished, then added another little scoop to give it the extra bump and release the acid from my precious nicotine.
3. Added Naptha, put a stopper on flask (for anyone without a chemistry set, this whole process can be done in empty, clean, plastic water or coke bottles with no problems since there is no more heating), and shook it up for a bit (don't be violent with it, may form emulsion, though mine didn't. In any case shaking it like a lunatic doesn't do more than gentle rocking and shaking), let separate (naptha and water form 2 layers like oil and vinegar, the naptha now has the nicotine in it), save naptha, add some more naptha, shake, sep, save, one more time, combine the 3 extracts (mine was about 60-75% of the already reduced water extract, reducing the amount of solvent makes it much easier to work with and much more efficient).
4. mixed a little citric acid in water (less than 1/2 of the naptha stuff, no need for much water here as the acid form of nicotine is very water-loving), then added half of the water (1/4 of the naptha amount) in a separatory funnel with the naptha and shook the hell out of it (no emulsion will form at this point so go crazy) for a couple min, saved the water layer, added the other half of the acid water and did the same (this can be done in a water bottle too, just mix the stuff up and save the bottom water layer, sep funnel is useful if you have one). I now had a rather small amount of water with nicotine citrate dissolved in it.
5. This part is a bit redundant, but I wanted to make sure I got the alkaloids as pure as I could with just acid/base extraction, plus I didn't want any citric acid in the product and didn't feel like evaporating a bunch of water and then redissolving in another more selective solvent and re-evapping, and it didn't take hardly any time or solvent because I was now working with drastically less water (probably about 100-150 ml). I redid steps 2-3 (further reducing the solvent amount as I now had the freebase nic dissolved in about 75ml of naptha which I put in my little 125ml sep funnel).
6. Almost done, I added like a drop and a half of "muriatic acid" (pool store acid, it is roughly 35% HCl in distilled water and suitable for this purpose. it is really HCl acid they just renamed it because HCl got a bad rep) to a bit of water (like 50 ml), added half to sep funnel, shook for a while then saved the water, added the rest and saved water again, think I added a little more distilled water and shook up to make sure I got the stuff of the sides of the funnel and added that too.
7. I now had Nicotine HCl dissolved in water, this could easily be evaporated and used but I started eyeballing the sodium polyacylate again and got an idea to speed things up. I put it in a tiny florence flask (I think 75 or 125ml size) tossed in enough poly to soak up all of the water (yea I should probably mention that with no water to dissolve in the HCl all turns into gas form, yowch on the nose. I saw the white vapor start rising and covered it with my hand {wear gloves foo} and went outside and let it air out for a couple seconds), then added some alcohol (honestly can't remember if it was denatured ethanol or 99% isopropyl but either should work fine) and swirled it around, poured alcohol off the top (flask kept the poly down at the bottom, this could be done with filters or just careful pouring, but the proper equipment really makes it all easier).
Put alcohol in a little metal measuring cup (like 1/4th or 1/8th of a cup) and set on hot plate on low heat, alcohol evaporated very very fast (water is like watching paint dry..), was careful not to boil to avoid having the popping bubbles send my concentrated nicotine solution over the side of the container, just a steady trail of alcohol vapor coming up. When the solvent was almost completely gone I took it off and let it finish evapping as it cooled, after a few min I checked it and bam, beautiful clear crystals were spiderwebbing across the bottom of the cup. I scraped them out and let them sit out for a bit to completely dry, then dissolved in glycerine with a bit of distilled water and some vodka (I did a couple small vials till I got the consistency where I wanted it then added the nicotine) and it vapped wonderfully. I had been out of fluid for nearly a day and it felt soooooo good, combined with the joy of a successful chem project I was in heaven.
Hope that helps, questions/comments/improvements welcome.
I used:
Distilled water
Naptha (I want to try it again with d-limonene because it would be nice to have an all-organic extraction without anything flammable)
Citric acid and HCl (one could use either/or for the steps involving these, I started with citric but then used HCl for the final because I didn't want any extra citric acid in the product. In case you can't tell I was making it up as I went along but it turned out wonderful)
Sodium Carbonate (One could use sodium hydroxide or another base, I didn't have pH papers at the time and didn't want harsh pH spikes or a strongly basic solution)
OPTIONAL:
Sodium Polyacrylate (Non toxic stuff that binds chemically to water, it's what that "fake snow, just add water" stuff they sell in stores around christmas time is made of, also very cheap from chem suppliers but not totally necessary anyway and can be replaced with some other stuff if you want, use what you have I won't go into detail)
Alcohol (no water in it, denatured alcohol or 99% isopropyl available from drug stores, and by the way if you don't see it on the shelf they can order it for you, if they say they can't ask them to please check because every single one I've been to said that and then they looked and there it was, I used to have a sweet hookup at the local grocery store the pharmacist would sell me a carton (like 20) of pint sized bottles for 10 bucks because my friend worked there)
Procedure:
1. 2-3 soaks in hot distilled water with a bit of citric acid (having extra isn't really important because it wont lower the pH to dangerous levels no matter how much you add and it is gone in the next step anyway, but don't get carried away: couple of grams is more than enough to get everything, and this only needs to be added to the first soak the others can just use distilled water). Soak in hot water 10-15 min, filter through coffee filter (lab funnel filter was too slow and there are no tiny bits of sediment anyway so the filtered liquid was perfectly clear), return any tobacco chunks from filter to flask (best to use erlenmeyer flask because you can hold it upside down and the shredded tobacco clumps together and prevents any from falling out so you don't have to transfer anything back, though one could use any glass or possibly metal container) then add more water and repeat 1-2 times, combining all the liquid extracts)
Optional: I tossed some sodium polyacylate in there (not much) to soak up some of the water then filtered it out. I wanted to get the solvent amounts lower as I went along so that my final step would have less to evap and I would also be able to have more concentrated solutions to ensure a higher yield during solvent transfers. This is totally not necessary and you should have a good yield without, I was trying to speed up the process because I had ran out of juice and I had a jar of it handy. One could just use the first two tobacco water extractions as most of the nicotine is in them anyway, and that would also cut down on solvent amount (I wouldn't boil it down, nicotine doesn't like heat and it is a lot of wasted time and possibly messy), or just do with more water it won't make much diff and I'm probably just confusing the non-chemists reading this.
2. To tobacco-water solution added sodium carbonate (bubbles form from CO2 release so don't dump a whole bunch in, just add a little, let it fizz up while swirling, then once bubbles go down add a little more) until bubbling finished, then added another little scoop to give it the extra bump and release the acid from my precious nicotine.
3. Added Naptha, put a stopper on flask (for anyone without a chemistry set, this whole process can be done in empty, clean, plastic water or coke bottles with no problems since there is no more heating), and shook it up for a bit (don't be violent with it, may form emulsion, though mine didn't. In any case shaking it like a lunatic doesn't do more than gentle rocking and shaking), let separate (naptha and water form 2 layers like oil and vinegar, the naptha now has the nicotine in it), save naptha, add some more naptha, shake, sep, save, one more time, combine the 3 extracts (mine was about 60-75% of the already reduced water extract, reducing the amount of solvent makes it much easier to work with and much more efficient).
4. mixed a little citric acid in water (less than 1/2 of the naptha stuff, no need for much water here as the acid form of nicotine is very water-loving), then added half of the water (1/4 of the naptha amount) in a separatory funnel with the naptha and shook the hell out of it (no emulsion will form at this point so go crazy) for a couple min, saved the water layer, added the other half of the acid water and did the same (this can be done in a water bottle too, just mix the stuff up and save the bottom water layer, sep funnel is useful if you have one). I now had a rather small amount of water with nicotine citrate dissolved in it.
5. This part is a bit redundant, but I wanted to make sure I got the alkaloids as pure as I could with just acid/base extraction, plus I didn't want any citric acid in the product and didn't feel like evaporating a bunch of water and then redissolving in another more selective solvent and re-evapping, and it didn't take hardly any time or solvent because I was now working with drastically less water (probably about 100-150 ml). I redid steps 2-3 (further reducing the solvent amount as I now had the freebase nic dissolved in about 75ml of naptha which I put in my little 125ml sep funnel).
6. Almost done, I added like a drop and a half of "muriatic acid" (pool store acid, it is roughly 35% HCl in distilled water and suitable for this purpose. it is really HCl acid they just renamed it because HCl got a bad rep) to a bit of water (like 50 ml), added half to sep funnel, shook for a while then saved the water, added the rest and saved water again, think I added a little more distilled water and shook up to make sure I got the stuff of the sides of the funnel and added that too.
7. I now had Nicotine HCl dissolved in water, this could easily be evaporated and used but I started eyeballing the sodium polyacylate again and got an idea to speed things up. I put it in a tiny florence flask (I think 75 or 125ml size) tossed in enough poly to soak up all of the water (yea I should probably mention that with no water to dissolve in the HCl all turns into gas form, yowch on the nose. I saw the white vapor start rising and covered it with my hand {wear gloves foo} and went outside and let it air out for a couple seconds), then added some alcohol (honestly can't remember if it was denatured ethanol or 99% isopropyl but either should work fine) and swirled it around, poured alcohol off the top (flask kept the poly down at the bottom, this could be done with filters or just careful pouring, but the proper equipment really makes it all easier).
Put alcohol in a little metal measuring cup (like 1/4th or 1/8th of a cup) and set on hot plate on low heat, alcohol evaporated very very fast (water is like watching paint dry..), was careful not to boil to avoid having the popping bubbles send my concentrated nicotine solution over the side of the container, just a steady trail of alcohol vapor coming up. When the solvent was almost completely gone I took it off and let it finish evapping as it cooled, after a few min I checked it and bam, beautiful clear crystals were spiderwebbing across the bottom of the cup. I scraped them out and let them sit out for a bit to completely dry, then dissolved in glycerine with a bit of distilled water and some vodka (I did a couple small vials till I got the consistency where I wanted it then added the nicotine) and it vapped wonderfully. I had been out of fluid for nearly a day and it felt soooooo good, combined with the joy of a successful chem project I was in heaven.
Hope that helps, questions/comments/improvements welcome.
Wow! That would make an awesome video DIY *hint hint*
From reading your post, I know it is probably beyond most hobbyists to think of doing.
I wouldnt even know what to use as my starting tobacco...let alone getting my hands on naptha (do not confuse with NAFTA...different pet peeve of mine).
How do you know what concentration your liquid is?
Kate...as a critical thinker myself, i would generate a list of what needs to be studied/evaluated. Then short list in order of priority. Following that, take each line item and seperate the info that you already have (say as "pros vs cons" or "hear-say vs supported statements")
If that didnt dicourage you enough at that point...now the research begins. Dont overlook any comments, be it pros or cons. Every comment that has some form of validation stays in the mix. Some comment by "A dude at a PC with too much time" that has no supporting merits (Phd or printed documents etc) keep in a file marked as "for further investigation".
Now..critically...a persone can distill the fact from crap...actually...distill the "more factual from less factual". How do you do that you ask?! Well I'm glad you did 'cause its very easy. Simple use of a numbered grading system...I prefer to use 1 to 100, but in all honesty, nothing is ever a 100 score or below a 20....let me explain further yet....If an independent study claims "This product is 100% safe" Then I would give it a 99 score for merit (since they are a reputable lab) but a score of 60 since I have not read the written reports....and maybe a 30 if they did not approach the proper viewpoints that should have been addressed (such as "Did they test all flavors of juice, or just cherry flavor")
My suggestion would be this. DO NOT TAKE THIS ALL UPON YOURSELF.
Form a small group of volunteers and assign them to each investigate one (yes I said one) thing. Researching more than 1 thing at a time causes distractions (oooh...shiny thing on my desk)...where was I...oh yeah....one thing at a time. If a person feels that they have aquired an acceptable amount if information, then they submit it, then disassociate themselves from it. Why?! Because they researched an "idea" and were already compromised via their own prejudices and ideals. Soooo....now hand off the info from Jon Doe and pass it forward to Jane Smith. Let Jane review the material and begin to grade/score it with subnotes as to why she graded/scored the info the way she did (ie...large univeristy with great research facility....95)...rinse and repeat with a 3rd individual. Each review of the material will allow multiple for the creation of a base model score for that particular piece of info. The more you repeat this process...the more accurate your final score will be.
*HINT*....try to use people who are in different demographics...smokers, vapers, non-smokers, antis, and unspokens...
When all is said and done, you will havean article that has a "mean average" score....the higher the score the more merit your presentation will be seen to communicate.
Sorry for the ramble Kate....just going through what I know how to do...but usually do it all in my head....and much quicker.
If that didnt dicourage you enough at that point...now the research begins. Dont overlook any comments, be it pros or cons. Every comment that has some form of validation stays in the mix. Some comment by "A dude at a PC with too much time" that has no supporting merits (Phd or printed documents etc) keep in a file marked as "for further investigation".
Now..critically...a persone can distill the fact from crap...actually...distill the "more factual from less factual". How do you do that you ask?! Well I'm glad you did 'cause its very easy. Simple use of a numbered grading system...I prefer to use 1 to 100, but in all honesty, nothing is ever a 100 score or below a 20....let me explain further yet....If an independent study claims "This product is 100% safe" Then I would give it a 99 score for merit (since they are a reputable lab) but a score of 60 since I have not read the written reports....and maybe a 30 if they did not approach the proper viewpoints that should have been addressed (such as "Did they test all flavors of juice, or just cherry flavor")
My suggestion would be this. DO NOT TAKE THIS ALL UPON YOURSELF.
Form a small group of volunteers and assign them to each investigate one (yes I said one) thing. Researching more than 1 thing at a time causes distractions (oooh...shiny thing on my desk)...where was I...oh yeah....one thing at a time. If a person feels that they have aquired an acceptable amount if information, then they submit it, then disassociate themselves from it. Why?! Because they researched an "idea" and were already compromised via their own prejudices and ideals. Soooo....now hand off the info from Jon Doe and pass it forward to Jane Smith. Let Jane review the material and begin to grade/score it with subnotes as to why she graded/scored the info the way she did (ie...large univeristy with great research facility....95)...rinse and repeat with a 3rd individual. Each review of the material will allow multiple for the creation of a base model score for that particular piece of info. The more you repeat this process...the more accurate your final score will be.
*HINT*....try to use people who are in different demographics...smokers, vapers, non-smokers, antis, and unspokens...
When all is said and done, you will havean article that has a "mean average" score....the higher the score the more merit your presentation will be seen to communicate.
Sorry for the ramble Kate....just going through what I know how to do...but usually do it all in my head....and much quicker.
That's brilliant Puff, thanks (I love your writing style - very friendly and easy to follow).
That's what a lot of us are trying to do in our heads I guess. I like collaborative projects so maybe I'll think about trying to involve more people in analysis and assessments of the information we can gather easily. Nothing hardcore or scientific but maybe just a little side interest hobby for some of us.
I hope you'll be the first 'think tank' volunteer Puff ... you seem to have a good grasp of what's needed
That's what a lot of us are trying to do in our heads I guess. I like collaborative projects so maybe I'll think about trying to involve more people in analysis and assessments of the information we can gather easily. Nothing hardcore or scientific but maybe just a little side interest hobby for some of us.
I hope you'll be the first 'think tank' volunteer Puff ... you seem to have a good grasp of what's needed
That's all very well, & not wishing to sound negative,
but enough wise thinkers sitting around reviewing
existing suppositions/presentations of possibilities/ideas
won't change the factual content (or lack of).
Opinions after careful deliberation are not the same as verifiable
facts from proper testing.
It would be great for this community to be able to scrape together
the resources for testing that we think we want/need.
e.g. targeted analysis of vapour for specific components.
Is that likely to happen?
but enough wise thinkers sitting around reviewing
existing suppositions/presentations of possibilities/ideas
won't change the factual content (or lack of).
Opinions after careful deliberation are not the same as verifiable
facts from proper testing.
It would be great for this community to be able to scrape together
the resources for testing that we think we want/need.
e.g. targeted analysis of vapour for specific components.
Is that likely to happen?
You're right, the last thing we need is to spend more time with our heads up our arses. I was half joking about a 'think tank' but after I posted it I started thinking it was a silly idea and a bit snobby too.
Regarding us getting together and getting something done - it doesn't seem likely in the short term. Right to Vape has discussed this but interest seems to have stalled at the moment. One or two opinionated, motivated people would be helpful.
I tried recently to get ideas for eliquid testing for community endorsement but lost interest I'm afraid. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/13848-eliquid-approval.html
Regarding us getting together and getting something done - it doesn't seem likely in the short term. Right to Vape has discussed this but interest seems to have stalled at the moment. One or two opinionated, motivated people would be helpful.
I tried recently to get ideas for eliquid testing for community endorsement but lost interest I'm afraid. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/13848-eliquid-approval.html
Good thread that, read it early on once & lost it again.
Perhaps it's actually worth finding how much a contract lab
charges for one/sequential GC/MS test(s).
And if it's a community funded thing,
just how many people are willing to donate
& how much per person that would come to.
Perhaps it's actually worth finding how much a contract lab
charges for one/sequential GC/MS test(s).
And if it's a community funded thing,
just how many people are willing to donate
& how much per person that would come to.
I contacted a lab and their reply is here - Eliquid Tests - what are we looking for?
Funding is a tricky one. Are we looking at one sample to be rigorously tested or every formula? The onus for quality control rests with manufacturers so if we're just testing for ingredients to prove them uncontaminated then it's not really ethical to use charitable funds (to support private profit).
If we're trying to determine the potential toxicity of certain ingredients rather than specific brands then we probably could raise funds but we'd need to set up proper accounting and trust mechanisms before dealing with cash. Right to Vape is the closest we have at the moment to being organised.
Funding is a tricky one. Are we looking at one sample to be rigorously tested or every formula? The onus for quality control rests with manufacturers so if we're just testing for ingredients to prove them uncontaminated then it's not really ethical to use charitable funds (to support private profit).
If we're trying to determine the potential toxicity of certain ingredients rather than specific brands then we probably could raise funds but we'd need to set up proper accounting and trust mechanisms before dealing with cash. Right to Vape is the closest we have at the moment to being organised.
Hi Kate...
I'm not sure how much help this will be, but in similar situations, I try to not think "critically", but rather "cynically". In other words, I assume that most of what I hear or read is wrong. Only with research and/or proof does it become true.
A lot of what I've seen here and in other places about e-smoking and other issues that affect us, is nothing but hypothesis and conjecture. As you well know, a hypothesis is nothing but an unproven theory. However, it seems that the media (and in turn, us) accept these unproven ideas as truth.
Getting together to file through some of this drabble that we see is a great idea! Paying or donating to somebody else to do it seems to be defeating your own purpose. the conclusions that they would come up with may not be what you were looking for to begin with.
I realize this is just rambling on, but I appreciate your concern and your willingness to do something for the good of us all.
If you come up with a solid idea, count me in. You can always PM me with your ideas, and I'll be more than happy to reapond in kind.
Keep thinking!!!
Chris
I'm not sure how much help this will be, but in similar situations, I try to not think "critically", but rather "cynically". In other words, I assume that most of what I hear or read is wrong. Only with research and/or proof does it become true.
A lot of what I've seen here and in other places about e-smoking and other issues that affect us, is nothing but hypothesis and conjecture. As you well know, a hypothesis is nothing but an unproven theory. However, it seems that the media (and in turn, us) accept these unproven ideas as truth.
Getting together to file through some of this drabble that we see is a great idea! Paying or donating to somebody else to do it seems to be defeating your own purpose. the conclusions that they would come up with may not be what you were looking for to begin with.
I realize this is just rambling on, but I appreciate your concern and your willingness to do something for the good of us all.
If you come up with a solid idea, count me in. You can always PM me with your ideas, and I'll be more than happy to reapond in kind.
Keep thinking!!!
Chris
Hi Chris, thinking cynically makes a lot of sense and certainly deals with true/false problems. Any claim should have solid proof.
If you want to help us collate and commission studies then our best resource at the moment is Right to Vape. It's trying to organise as a voluntary organisation so it's a community project. There are three main areas of concern at the moment -
Health and Scientific studies
Consumer Affairs
Legal
Anyone wanting to volunteer to moderate and manage an area is most welcome (even if you don't want to commit to being a volunteer you're still welcome to share ideas). We had a spurt of interest when we were setting up a few months ago but recently things have been very quiet there. Some lively folk to shake us up a bit would be wonderful.
If you want to help us collate and commission studies then our best resource at the moment is Right to Vape. It's trying to organise as a voluntary organisation so it's a community project. There are three main areas of concern at the moment -
Health and Scientific studies
Consumer Affairs
Legal
Anyone wanting to volunteer to moderate and manage an area is most welcome (even if you don't want to commit to being a volunteer you're still welcome to share ideas). We had a spurt of interest when we were setting up a few months ago but recently things have been very quiet there. Some lively folk to shake us up a bit would be wonderful.
I went out today and i nearly got hit by a truck that had DAF written on the front of it.
If it had hit me i would'nt know that it had DAF written on the front of it because i'd be dead.
I'm not going out anymore as it is unsafe and i heard there were pigs running round as well, sneezing on people and turning them into pandemics. 8-o
If it had hit me i would'nt know that it had DAF written on the front of it because i'd be dead.
I'm not going out anymore as it is unsafe and i heard there were pigs running round as well, sneezing on people and turning them into pandemics. 8-o
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