I'd be more interested in what percentage of smokers can go a whole day just using the iqos system.
Any one headed to Toronto to buy iQOS?
- Thread starter Tony Dokoupil
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Very good point.
I'd also be interested to know the 'real world' costs.
I hate tobacco companies (can I have my family back for all those years lost to lung cancer?)
I also hate products which are either camouflaged robbery or make false claims.
IF a tobacco company could make a fair-priced, harm reduction product that was easy to use and effective and people like it and paid somewhere between the price of normal vaping and 40% the price of cigarettes (UK) then OK, let's do this thing.
The thing is though... I just don't see it going this way. If the choice is to spend $1,000s a year on smoking or still pay about the same for an alternative, people are going to see this as acceptable - because the health gains are more important at the end of the day than the money.
That why we have vapers spending $3,000 a year on cig-a-likes and BT 'pen' products when they could be spending $800 instead.
The IQOS will be cheap to make and expensive to buy. Just the way to tick all the boxes in the tobacco company M.O.
Well, if they're trying to get PMTA approval, then why are they already marketing it by saying:
- Results to date give us confidence that we are on course with our plans to demonstrate that THS is a less harmful alternative for smokers who switch.
That is from PMI's website. THS (Tobacco Heating System) is the US name for IQOS. So, they're already marketing it as safer before any regulation has been set. Again, I'd like to see how the FDA handles this compared to Electronic Cigarettes. The FDA has pretty much ignored findings by scientists, vapers, and the many years results of current vaping, and threw it all out the window and classified it as a tobacco product. And as a tobacco product, they cannot say that it's safer than any other tobacco product. Then here comes this IQOS and now they have a MRTP category that only the IQOS seems to fit in. Aren't ecigs considered MRTP already?
Vaping is less harmful. We know this, we discuss this, we write about an communicate about this. But currently, the manufacturer cannot make that claim, true or false, unless an MRTP is approved. Based on that statement on their website they might have an MRTP planned to allow that claim.
However, given that Gottlieb has already ceded that vaping is safer than combustible tobacco, it is possible that differentiation of an MRTP will be reinterpreted in a way that recognizes vaping's benefits without additional burdensome regulation such as that required for an MRTP. Still, PMI is large enough to generate that sort of application and may proceed with it just so they can beat up on any rivals by having the "right" to claim safer than cigarettes when "right" do not.
Say, for the sake of argument, that this tastes better than a cig -- like the first drag every time -- as well as being much less harmful, and more enjoyable than regular vaping to a smoker. Isn't that worth paying even more than for cigs, if you can afford it?
I tried a cheap heat-not-burn device once that didn't work very well but did momentarily get an amazing taste. I don't know if it was the problems but the taste did seem to get tiresome rapidly. I see the entire vapor path of iQos is disposable which is probably important. Seems like it would have trouble getting heat to the whole slug of tobacco and fully using it, even though small, one problem with my experiment as well.
Note that a cig uses vaporization, except for the smoke itself most flavor is vaporized out of the tobacco by the heat before it burns, especially that first drag.
I tried a cheap heat-not-burn device once that didn't work very well but did momentarily get an amazing taste. I don't know if it was the problems but the taste did seem to get tiresome rapidly. I see the entire vapor path of iQos is disposable which is probably important. Seems like it would have trouble getting heat to the whole slug of tobacco and fully using it, even though small, one problem with my experiment as well.
Note that a cig uses vaporization, except for the smoke itself most flavor is vaporized out of the tobacco by the heat before it burns, especially that first drag.
Why do you think that iQOS is the only thing that fits in this category? There's nothing that prevents companies with other products from filing MRTP applications. In fact, if PMI's MRTP application is approved, one might think that would make it easier for vapor products to get the same approval if they can show an even lower level of toxicants than a product that already has such approval.
Has anyone filed an MRTP application for an e-cig product yet?
McClintock I don't think so. Not now. I don't find cig flavors all that appetizing, and my last cig I really WANTED to work for me, but it tasted horrible. I don't see what looks like a waxy stick of Marlboro lite and some e-juice is going to improve my experience much. If it were the "perfect" cig taste without the harm I'd be even more likely to avoid it, as I can't sustainably afford it (trust me, if it were cigarette-like enough, I'd need three "packs" of sticks a day. It also looks a bit messy, fiddly.)
Please note that had you asked me this 2 months ago, my answer may have been completely different. Such is the nature of cigarettes and addiction. I'm not saying it's a bad device, but it's a bad device for me.
*Mentally envisaging trying to "jigger" some of those waxy sticks by DIY-- probably not a good plan in any way.*
Anna
Please note that had you asked me this 2 months ago, my answer may have been completely different. Such is the nature of cigarettes and addiction. I'm not saying it's a bad device, but it's a bad device for me.
*Mentally envisaging trying to "jigger" some of those waxy sticks by DIY-- probably not a good plan in any way.*
Anna
We all know vaping, just like any other cigarette alternative (NRT, meds) will not work for everyone. If this works for a current smoker to stop, let them go at it. Vaping works for me so this isn't on my radar. Still, I think their pricing is ludicrous for the product, but they can try and sell it however they want. I won't be buying it.
Well that is an even more interesting question. I guess the answer is "Yes"....
What proportion on the world currently enjoys enough income for this. In the UK, smoking even 1/2 PAD will not only shorten your life but also damage your bank balance to the extent that you might not be able to afford a house or decent car.
The answer is still yes, of course... but nicotine is not the same free choice as spending $100 a month on a mobile phone or something. The tobacco co's have an unfair advantage - one they will willingly use.
Complicated stuff.
It's funny how being able to vape for less than $100 a year (using DIY liquid and simple, rebuildable equipment that will last a lifetime) has given us such a different perspective in terms of cost. Thing is, folks people who are still buying packs or cartons of commercial cigs do not have that perspective, and they the target market of iQOS. Those of us for whom vaping works, and especially vaping "enthusiasts" like most of the active members here, are not. We're already a lost cause to them.
Vaping works for me as well. 3-1/2 years now and roughly $16,000 not spent on cigarettes. But once iQOS is available in the US, I might try it anyway. You see, there's exactly one thing I really miss about cigs. The first cig or two in the morning used to make me very "regular", and then I was generally done with that action for the day. Vaping has never worked like that for me. In fact, prunes became an essential part of my diet to keep things moving shortly after switching, but they don't give me the predictable schedule I used to have, and that lack of predictability is darn inconvenient at times. I have no idea what it was in cigarette smoke that did this for me; it clearly wasn't the nic, 'cause I get plenty of that from my vape. In any case, I'm curious enough whether iQOS might have whatever it is that my metabolism is missing in the mornings to try 'em once I can get them here.
Agreed. If you are going to buy cigarettes, this thing doesn't seem that pricy. It seems pricy to me only because our household has refused to pay full cost for ANY tobacco whatsoever since about 12 years ago. That was a plus and a minus, as it really gave me free reign to smoke as much as I wanted. Interestingly, even with DIY juice, my consumption doesn't rise vaping-wise. 
That's all to the good.
As... an irregular person.... I can agree that one useful function of the IQOS might be to avoid the taste of prune juice. Ever. You can try warming it up and adding a teaspoon of butter, it works better that way (nursing trick I was told) and I actually prefer it to the cold stuff.... If the IQOS doesn't work for your regularity. I think I'll stick with prune juice, I am early in my vaping adventures, and I've also used WTA which doesn't work, and would seem to have the similar "theory" behind it but maybe the IQOS would work better.
But, I understand purchasing almost ANYTHING to avoid prune juice.....
Anna
That's all to the good.As... an irregular person.... I can agree that one useful function of the IQOS might be to avoid the taste of prune juice. Ever. You can try warming it up and adding a teaspoon of butter, it works better that way (nursing trick I was told) and I actually prefer it to the cold stuff.... If the IQOS doesn't work for your regularity.
I think I'll stick with prune juice, I am early in my vaping adventures, and I've also used WTA which doesn't work, and would seem to have the similar "theory" behind it but maybe the IQOS would work better. But, I understand purchasing almost ANYTHING to avoid prune juice.....
Anna
I don't think I could have quit vaping without this site, and trying some recommendations, so I agree that with some dedication and support, more smokers COULD switch to vaping (WTA liquid did help me in the beginning, for sure, and I'm down to almost nothing....) but the advice on nic, quitting symptoms, trying different setups, that was all achieved here.
I have to say if you want information on vaping and help, you will be flooded with support here, and that's a good thing to say the least. I wouldn't recommend the IQOS unless someone had been trying to vape for years, using different equipment, and still having trouble. I could also see the IQOS being used as a "step down" from smoking, like vape as much as you can, but when you are really having trouble, you can vape a Marlboro product when you need to during intense cravings. That's the only way I could see such a device being sustainable, but it's been a LONG time (well except for my week of dual vaping) since I've purchased a pack of cigarettes, and at $9, I was not best pleased. Though, they were American Spirits, so doubly expensive. By rights, I should have bought a pack of basics, that would have killed off my smoking even faster.... The thought of those cigs still makes me heave... about 20 years later....
Also, CBS news, if you want a news story why not start with this one? How people can stop cigs even WITHOUT the IQOS?
Anna
American Spirit orange was my addiction. $80 a carton every 5 days for my wife and I.
I can't imagine purchasing store bought AM spirits, that cost is.... Well, fortunately we have a couple reservations around and an injector machine.
Which my husband is thankfully now using again, I finally went and bought him a tin of American Spirits and told him I couldn't stand the coughing anymore and he was doing himself no favors, switching to pipe tobacco remnant rollies.... I guess he saw the logic.
The dear man *keeps* saying he doesn't know how I do it, (he did see my smoking habit) if he keeps up, I'm going to need to find a lighter mod in case I miss-aim while hurling the vape tip of the steampunk towards his open mouth.... Explaining it doesn't seem to work.
I'm kidding. The last time my husband really upset me ( I think I was about 25) I ended up hurling a lukewarm half-full cup of coffee at him, only he dodged and it hit a SUPER large TV I got him for Valentine's day.... Replacing that sucker week by week trained me to only ever hurl plates purchased deliberately from Goodwill to lob at our cinderblock wall.... That lasted about a decade (very intermittently!) and we brought all the plates with us and created a dada-garden under one of our trees out of the broken china with a metal Peacock that leans over and "eats" from it. Not to mention the labyrinth and the American Spirit Wind chime that my husband made a few months ago (looks bad, sounds good). I have GOT to take some pics of the yard, actually. We've had about a week of rain and it's as green as it gets.
I have actually calmed down significantly of the years, now that I think about it. But yeah, $80 would last me and husband about 2 weeks, tubes and all.... But, I smoked more than he did.
Anna
Which my husband is thankfully now using again, I finally went and bought him a tin of American Spirits and told him I couldn't stand the coughing anymore and he was doing himself no favors, switching to pipe tobacco remnant rollies.... I guess he saw the logic.
The dear man *keeps* saying he doesn't know how I do it, (he did see my smoking habit) if he keeps up, I'm going to need to find a lighter mod in case I miss-aim while hurling the vape tip of the steampunk towards his open mouth.... Explaining it doesn't seem to work.
I'm kidding. The last time my husband really upset me ( I think I was about 25) I ended up hurling a lukewarm half-full cup of coffee at him, only he dodged and it hit a SUPER large TV I got him for Valentine's day.... Replacing that sucker week by week trained me to only ever hurl plates purchased deliberately from Goodwill to lob at our cinderblock wall.... That lasted about a decade (very intermittently!) and we brought all the plates with us and created a dada-garden under one of our trees out of the broken china with a metal Peacock that leans over and "eats" from it. Not to mention the labyrinth and the American Spirit Wind chime that my husband made a few months ago (looks bad, sounds good). I have GOT to take some pics of the yard, actually. We've had about a week of rain and it's as green as it gets.
I have actually calmed down significantly of the years, now that I think about it.
But yeah, $80 would last me and husband about 2 weeks, tubes and all.... But, I smoked more than he did.Anna
I've never done prune juice. I just snack on whole prunes, which I actually like/enjoy. So it's not that I'd like to avoid them, and they do an adequate job keeping things moving. The problem is just that they don't give me the predictable, "OK, I'm done with this for the day" kind of regularity I used to enjoy when I was a smoker.But, I understand purchasing almost ANYTHING to avoid prune juice.....
Well, IF PMI's MRTP is approved under this category, I would like to know what is involved in the whole application process. Currently, to just come out with a new product, it would probably take a year of extensive review and research by the FDA just for approval for sale. I am am going to see how long it would take this product to go through the FDA for approval. Does PMI have to pay the fees that ecig companies have to pay? How much research has to be submitted for approval?
I just find it odd that when Ecigs started to gain popularity, the FDA came down on them like a sledgehammer and classified it along with traditional cigarettes, yet when PMI comes out with a new technology, they open up a different category for THEIR product. Does Might make Right? Do you have to be a millionaire to come up with a healthier alternative?
This sort of reasoning is what my whole concern is about, and I don't like how the FDA handled something that was undoubtedly a healthier alternative. Instead of encouraging it, they restrict it. It went against what the FDA was created for, and I think lives were lost due to the FDA's decision on Ecigs.
Cigarettes: known MAJOR health issues - FDA: Tax it incredibly, make it expensive.
IQOS: suspected MINOR health issues - FDA: Open up a new category (we'll see how they tax it)
Ecigs: known NEGLIGIBLE health issues - FDA: Treat it like cigarettes which have a known MAJOR health issues
If they give any tax breaks on IQOS, or not restrict it as much, then I will be outraged. They failed on their job already with Ecigs, forcing a more unhealthy alternative.
That last sentence (which I put in bold) is my point and goes with my "does might make right" statement on my previous post. I remember a multitude of tests that were submitted to the FDA on the safety of Ecigaretes. How they do not produce near the amount of toxins. Yet they treat it like a regular cigarette. According to the FDA's website:
"FDA does not develop or test products before approving them. Instead, FDA experts review the results of laboratory, animal, and human clinical testing done by manufacturers. If FDA grants an approval, it means the agency has determined that the benefits of the product outweigh the known risks for the intended use."
I guess they don't think that Ecigs benifits do not outweigh the risks of a traditional cigarette.
But when IQOS comes out, they roll out the red carpet and open up a new category for them to slide into.
I've heard that PMI's MRTP application exceeds a million pages of "data".
Review, certainly. But I don't think the FDA plans to do research related to a specific product application themselves, no matter whether it's a PMTA or a MRTP. The FDA's attitude is: It's the manufacturer's job to do the research and present it to us for review. In any case, I don't think there are huge fees payable to the FDA with these applications. The high cost estimates are due to the cost of doing the research and preparing the applications for the FDA to review.
What makes you think the MRTP path was created for PMI and iQOS? I don't see that at all. Swedish Match submitted an MRTP application for some of their Snus back in 2014. The FDA ended up denying it. Anyway, the MRTP path is not new, and was not created specifically for iQOS.
This is one of the problems with heavy regulations; they almost inevitably exclude the little guys from an industry. This is also why the big, entrenched players with lots of resources don't fight (and may even favor) regulations.
Who is "they"? The FDA doesn't impose taxes.
FWIW, I don't mean to sound like I'm defending the FDA. I despise them. With respect to "tobacco products" there's no doubt they are doing more harm than good. It's just that some of your premises about the processes the FDA has defined and requires from manufacturers seem to be off-base and should be corrected for the record.
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