Anyone ask Chinese manufacturers

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Bones

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    I'm in contact with a Chinese distributor, and ban or no ban, they will continue to do business with the USA. They never had a problem with Customs except for a few inspections which ultimately still reached the US.


    Well the key there is enforcement - Regardless of what they decide - How strongly will it be enforced? - So far there has not really been a ban - more like fact finding checks - If there is a full blown BAN - Who knows how that will play out - You'd have to find a way to pay for it and most places like PayPal or Visa would not risk running the transactions - BUT - I know folks who smoke Cuban Cigars - They have friends in other countries ship them in personal packages - Never got stopped - I have brought Cubans back to the US myself - Clearly visible in my bag's X-Ray - Yet no one ever took them out to check (if they had they would have seen Jamaican Bands on them;) )- Plus the juice can be made pretty easily - There will be a way -
     

    ProfessorDaffy

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    what they are going to do with their e'cigs and all if that ban gets passed?
    Looks like they have some big factories, and USA is a pretty big chunk of business.
    I'm wondering, since we owe China a trillion or so bucks, how much pressure can they put on the gov here? I mean if someone loaned me that much money, I'd be really really really nice to them.

    China is home to 350 million smokers. I think they'll be just fine.

    --Prof Daffy
     

    Bones

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    So I guess the ban, if so, will be just like all those pipes, hookahs, etc.


    basically yes - They have no legal ground to stand on with the devices - just like the pipes - Sun was saying that the devices are linked in the SE/njoy case - But I really think that could only apply to any current device already marketed as an e-cig and of course the models that they have in evidence now - The basic concept of a vaporizer of this nature could be a million other things as long as there is no nicotine in the picture - As you said those pipes and things - That lot already includes a ton of vaporizers that are not part of this at all - Ironic/Funny part is that those are made legal by claiming to be "Safer Than Smoking" and for use with tobacco - Ain't that a kick in the head? It's like saying it's ok to make the "safer than smoking" claim if you are really only gonna use it for pot (no one puts tobacco in those and they know it) - But - Not if you actually use it for nicotine - It boggles the mind -
     

    dperino

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    Jun 27, 2009
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    thanks for broadening the topic bones. the issue of trade is important because, if i understand the issue at all, prohibiting the import of ecigs, and most especially ejuice, may ultimately have to be argued according to whatever process devised at the world trade organization (wto).

    because china supplies the major percentage of personal vapor supplies, an argument couldn't be raised concerning market discrimination based on the most favored nation concept. china just happened to see another opportunity, and because it has the capacity to quickly fill this niche, it did so. as it is now, any company located pretty much anywhere in the world could do the same if its capable of doing so.

    i raise the discrimination issue because its important from the standpoint of global trade. according to the wto, discrimination occurs in two ways. first, is the issue related to most favored nation. let's say that china's market saturation of ecig products in this country was based merely on an agreement between our country and theirs giving some sort of exclusivity. if other countries had similar products they wanted to export to the u.s. (or china for that fact) but couldn't because of this exclusive agreement, regulations guiding free trade would view this as discriminatory.

    the second type of discrimination would be a form of protectionism. let's say all of those mods made by all of you great tinkerers and wonderful people (from the bottom of my heart i truly thank you :)) were what actually comprised the commercial market in this country and the government didn't allow china access to our burgeoning market, this would also be viewed as discriminatory.

    one important point here is that the united states, by agreeing to the terms of regulated free trade, lost the autonomy to make decisions prohibiting the import of goods, and services. for any country to prohibit the free flow of goods and services it has to be consistent with the regulatory policies agreed upon through the wto. in other words, if it's allowed to be made here, it has to be allowed to come into this country from somewhere else.

    but there is an exception, in that any country can prohibit the importation of goods, and that, of course, is based on health related reasons, as follows:

    "Article 20 of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) allows governments to act on trade in order to protect human, animal or plant life or health, provided they do not discriminate or use this as disguised protectionism."

    so, the us can very well not allow ecigs, and most especially ejuice, from entering the country. yet, continuing to read up on the issue you will find that the prohibition must be based on science. so of course this is where the fda comes in, eh? but various questions could be asked such as, if us scientists determine the ecig method of nicotine delivery to be unhealthy will this be accepted by the world community? or will this raise even more issues? how about this one, would it even be important?

    it also raises an interesting scenario where the us makes some sort of side agreement with china saying that if they stop importing ecigs, and juice, then we'll allow them to import more toys covered in led-based paint, or something to that effect.

    so, i agree with bones. the issue of ecigs, and again ejuice, is actually part of a much larger issue. i know this sounds kind of conspiratorial, but if its in the governments line of sight to do away with ecigs, then they'll no doubt manipulate the environment to do so, let's hope this isn't the case.
     

    ramblingrose

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    The likely outcome is CLASS III, which fall into the same spectrum as new and experimental. As such, one would need a Premarket Approval (PMA), clinical trials, years of back and forth and millions of dollars.
    Why should it fall into Class III? It's not a life sustaining device. Nor does it pose "potentially unreasonable risk of illness or injury". I would think that any submission to the FDA would separate the drug from the device, or limit the strength of nicotine provided to a safe enough level to avoid Class III.

    In any event, FDA approval in any category requires time and money for testing.
     

    ramblingrose

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    PM is FAR FROM exclusive to the US - There are Camels and Marlboros sold in every little podunk store and tobacco stand in every corner of the earth - I've been to a few countries where they are traded as money - Preferred to it really :)
    So true! The spin off from Altria was done not only to protect it from litigation and regulation in the U.S., but to allow PM International to aggressively pursue growth in emerging markets worldwide with less constraints.
     

    tannerk

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    Why should it fall into Class III? It's not a life sustaining device. Nor does it pose "potentially unreasonable risk of illness or injury". I would think that any submission to the FDA would separate the drug from the device, or limit the strength of nicotine provided to a safe enough level to avoid Class III.

    In any event, FDA approval in any category requires time and money for testing.

    It is not what we think it is or isn't. FDA's position, and rightfully so, is that if you want to market a device that uses a volatilized chemical concoction it has to be approved as a combo. As such both have to go through the trials.

    We think it's safe. But do we know the long-term effects of inhaling volatilized PG? What about chemicals leaching into vapor and/or liquid from the atomizer or surrounding plastic? Have anyone tested to see what chemicals are produced when vapor mixes with human saliva? ...and the list goes on and on.

    I'm not being a naysayer. I just want members to recognize that unsupported evidence is not enough to get an FDA approval. Law is law and e-cigs are not exempt.
     

    Bones

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    I think one very important point must be kept in mind - Can anyone show me where the FDA has said that if the court upholds their claim to have control over the regulation of e-cigs that they will BAN them outright and forever? - I look and look for this and I do not see it - What I see the FDA saying is that these products will have to submit for FDA approval - The notion of a swift and all encompassing permanent ban seems to be pure paranoid speculation - I admit I may have missed it - If so - Where is it?
     

    ramblingrose

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    It is not what we think it is or isn't. FDA's position, and rightfully so, is that if you want to market a device that uses a volatilized chemical concoction it has to be approved as a combo. As such both have to go through the trials.

    We think it's safe. But do we know the long-term effects of inhaling volatilized PG? What about chemicals leaching into vapor and/or liquid from the atomizer or surrounding plastic? Have anyone tested to see what chemicals are produced when vapor mixes with human saliva? ...and the list goes on and on.

    I'm not being a naysayer. I just want members to recognize that unsupported evidence is not enough to get an FDA approval. Law is law and e-cigs are not exempt.
    Tannerk, I didn't question that it has to go through trials; of course it does. I simply questioned why you're assuming the worst case scenario of a class III rating. In all the years I've been involved with analysis of studies and clinical trials, the assumption has been that class III is primarily reserved for devices with more direct risk to life. A pacemaker would be an example of a Class III device. As a comparison, last I knew steroid inhalers would be an example of Class I.

    For all the speculating that goes on here, the bottom line is we don't know what the ultimate outcome will be.

    By the way, we don't all assume it's completely safe. Many of us acknowledge that we don't know what longterm effects there may be.
     
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    Bones

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    It is not what we think it is or isn't. FDA's position, and rightfully so, is that if you want to market a device that uses a volatilized chemical concoction it has to be approved as a combo. As such both have to go through the trials.

    We think it's safe. But do we know the long-term effects of inhaling volatilized PG? What about chemicals leaching into vapor and/or liquid from the atomizer or surrounding plastic? Have anyone tested to see what chemicals are produced when vapor mixes with human saliva? ...and the list goes on and on.

    I'm not being a naysayer. I just want members to recognize that unsupported evidence is not enough to get an FDA approval. Law is law and e-cigs are not exempt.


    Well - There have been tests done - Most notably and officially is the New Zealand health department - Passed with flying colors - As I understand it the products are more than half way through the approval process in Germany - And - As far as long term use goes - PG is the same stuff that has been being inhaled by Asthma patients in their inhalers for years with no problems reported - It is the same stuff used in fog-machines and if there were inhalation problems the Screen Actors Guild and other entertainment unions would have been all over it years ago - Take a look at the huge volume of data here Propylene Glycol Research Study Results A fabulous job done by Spikey to put it all in one place - When the FDA says there has been no testing - They mean that The FDA has not done it - And they are splitting hairs on that - They have most certainly tested PG for countless uses over the years - It is far from new - Time 1942 -Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME

    My conclusion that it is safe is not based on what I "think" - It is based on documented data that I have read - I welcome further testing - But you must ask yourself this question - Since when does a product have to be proved 100% safe? - It normally works the other way around does it not? Cigarettes - for example - Took YEARS to be proven UNsafe - And still they are not prohibited even though they are KILLERS - Nothing is 100% safe - NOTHING - Water will kill you if you drink too much - Listen to the adds for FDA approved medications - 90% of the add is a list of side effects often pretty nasty and many times include death - There is no logical reasoning to the implied need to find e-cigs 100% safe - Overwhelming precedent dictates that even if it causes DEATH you just have to attach a warning label -
     
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