In theory yes. However, considering that vaping is still the wild west many real players have not even considered entering the market. I have no doubt that once the market is regulated large corporations will enter into this business. The first thing many of these companies will do is purchase the most popular brands juice and clone the recipes and sell them at realistic prices. My biggest concern is that the "premium" brands are setting a bad trend. Regulators are not going to look at realistic prices when they are deciding the taxable value and equivalence levels. They will pick what ever suits their agendas. $1+ a ml is not a realistic price especially when they add a 100% tax which will be in the form of a $1 a ml tax stamp regardless of the juice's actual price.
Are Premium Juice Vendors Taking Advantage of us?
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In theory yes. However, considering that vaping is still the wild west many real players have not even considered entering the market. I have no doubt that once the market is regulated large corporations will enter into this business. The first thing many of these companies will do is purchase the most popular brands juice and clone the recipes and sell them at realistic prices. My biggest concern is that the "premium" brands are setting a bad trend. Regulators are not going to look at realistic prices when they are deciding the taxable value and equivalence levels. They will pick what ever suits their agendas. $1+ a ml is not a realistic price especially when they add a 100% tax which will be in the form of a $1 a ml tax stamp regardless of the juice's actual price.
NJOY is huge, and their signature line is on par with .premium' pricing... I imagine BLU will get into the refillable market soon, but I don't expect their prices to go down, either.
The proposals I have seen for taxes are generally a % of the wholesale price, not a flat charge per ml...
It's not? I was just using what you tried to compare the juice market to. Pick any industry you want - an oversupply and competition drives prices down. Since there's no barriers to entry in juice land...anyone can enter, we see them entering continuously, and soon, they're going to start undercutting each other for greater market shares. Whoever wants to stay in business will be forced to slash prices, especially when DIY gets more traction.
If you read my first post, it was in relation to convenience and price, not oversaturation of the market.
I haven't noticed an oversaturation of the e-liquid market, concerning higher priced vendors.
Not everyone wants to DIY. I wouldn't at any cost. This is a hobbyist web site, not the real world of vaping. It is like sub ohming on box mods with Fastech attys.. You would think a great percentage of vapers would be doing it, if you go by this forum...
Amen. There's a huge difference in overhead, time involved, and the markup at the consumer level.
Whether or not you are willing to pay for your favorite premium juice, you're still getting ripped off...substantially. I don't think the vast majority of vapers realize that "premium" juice vendors use the same flavorings that DIY'ers are using. It's not as if they are hiring chemists and manufacturing chemical flavorings in a lab. Juice costs at most $1 per 30 ml to manufacture. On average, using bulk supplies, it's probably below $0.50 per 30ml. So the markup is generally 20-60X the cost. Having brewed my own beer, I would guess the markup is maybe double the cost.
Well. Some people think Budweiser is great beer. Some think their home brew is as good or better, but neither have tried the best beers in the world...
One can make a pizza at home for $3. I ordered one from my favorite pizza place in the area for $21. Am I getting ripped off?
One can make a pizza at home for $3. I ordered one from my favorite pizza place in the area for $21. Am I getting ripped off?
i still dont understand why you constantly keep making these kind of comparisons to irrelevant subjects. I dont really see anyone arguing against you that if you can afford it and its convenient for you then go ahead and do it. People are just saying its cheaper, and saying that prices will probably go down the more people enter the industry. You're correct that this forum isnt vaping in its entirety, because there are so many people out there less informed than us and dont even know DIY exists, hence their reason on paying extremely inflated prices on e-juice, its due to the fact they dont know that DIY exists and its fractions cheaper, its the fact that they are uninformed. I know many vapers in 'the real vaping world' who dont regularly use forums online, and almost all of them were buying juice from vendors until I got them into DIY. Just because 'you' can afford them and it is convenient for you, doesn't mean the majority is just like you, I doubt a large fraction of people will agree with you that spending 600$ on phones or dinner for two is just a walk in the park.
From personal experience out in 'the vaping world', many people are still using ego style batteries along with old cartotanks/clearomizer tanks, but still paying 20-30$ a bottle for 'premium' eliquid due to the fact that they have no idea how to go about making their own juice, or that it is even possible. Can they be happy with what they have and are paying for their stuff? Sure they can. Does that mean there isn't something else they don't know about that can give them a better vape experience or that there is something more affordable that will make them happier? no it doesnt.
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I think you are completely missing the point if you compare the cost of raw ingredients to what a finished juice sells for. How much do you think the cost of raw ingredients are in a can of Coca Cola ? How about a DVD ?
DIY could be fun and will save you money no doubt, but the majority of vapers will not be diy'ing any time soon barring draconian regulations. There is room in the market for both segments. Each to his own. I just don't understand why some diy'ers constantly feel the need to point out what the raw ingredients cost and how people who purchase juice are suckers
That math is way off. First, you can't make a pizza at home for $3. Try fresh ingredients...cheese, dough, sauce...you're looking at closer to $10 if you're lucky. I digress...assuming it did cost $3, but instead paid $180-$300 for delivery...yes, yes you are getting ripped off. That's the math involved with DIY. Same exact ingredients, with a 60-100X markup. Not 60-100%, 60X to 100X the true costs. You will not find a similar markup in any other legitimate business, period. Juice vendors survive because people are willing to pay and think there's no alternative...the only market analogy I can think of is {Other Stuff} or other illicit drugs.
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Also in reply to your quote, i have tried crap beer and good beer just like I have tried premium eliquids, such as many other DIY'ers.
The fact is, making good beer takes more effort than putting liquids in a bottle and shaking it up. and like a user said above, the markup on eliquids vs beer isn't even close, i think thats the whole fact that you are not getting and just keep coming back with the same arguements that make no sense at all. The less time and less skill put into making eliquids vs more time and more skill into making beer. You would think the guy who is an artisan and putting more effort into his practice would be paid more, but no.
also i'd like to see what kind of pizza you can make at home for 3$ in todays world. a dough with tomato sauce on top and 1/5th filled with cheese? Or would you go out and grow your own ingredients to make it cheaper? Because that takes time and effort which justifies buying a 20$ pizza.
imo there is no time and effort put into making most eliquids, ingredients are available at low price, and it is not that hard to make, you dont have to make your own flavorings, you dont have to dilute 100mg nic to lower levels, you dont have to use extracts.
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I think you are completely missing the point if you compare the cost of raw ingredients to what a finished juice sells for. How much do you think the cost of raw ingredients are in a can of Coca Cola ? How about a DVD ?
DIY could be fun and will save you money no doubt, but the majority of vapers will not be diy'ing any time soon barring draconian regulations. There is room in the market for both segments. Each to his own. I just don't understand why some diy'ers constantly feel the need to point out what the raw ingredients cost and how people who purchase juice are suckers
It's because of simple math, and the fact that "premium" prices are not sustainable to most smokers who have quit, and now need 10-15ml per day to get by. It's sad that many people think there's no alternative. My local B&M employees certainly have no idea, and neither did I until recently. I was ripped off. I feel the need to point this out because if people didn't pay these prices so easily, the companies would gladly cut them in half, or go out of business. A realistic business model could make lots of profit and still survive at, say, $5/30ml.
DIY is not an art. There are only a handful of very special juices out there that people have trouble cloning. Really, truly.
Bottled Water, printer ink, tea, coffee, perfume etc ...
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Do you have a source for nic or ingredients not made in China? Do you value your time? I don't want to waste hours and hours developing blends. A couple drops of this and that isn't the kind of e-liquid I like.
It really seems the holier than thou DIY crowd tries over and over to justify their decisions by going on and on about how those who buy e-liquid are getting ripped off...
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Each to his own. I just don't understand why some diy'ers constantly feel the need to point out what the raw ingredients cost and how people who purchase juice are suckers
Lol, i don't see where people are pointing out others for being suckers for buying high priced juice. I just see people saying that the juice vendors are marking up their product way too much. No offense but, if people feel like they are being pointed out for suckers for buying premium eliquid then.... if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck?
You seem to have some kind of anti-china, anti-cheap, anti-DIY attitude. Nicotine is not a solely chinese product, neither are flavorings, in fact alot of the flavourings DIYers used are made by US based companies. Also, one does not need hours and hours to develop blends. You do realize that Nicotine and flavorings existed even before ecigarettes existed right? They weren't created solely for vapers to vape...
If a couple of drops of this and that isnt the kind of eliquid you like then i dont see anyone arguing here against you purchasing your exotic eliquids? It seems like you think this thread is just to bash you personally which it isnt.
Also what brand/flavors of eliquids do you order? im curious now.
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Having had the finest beers in the world, anyone who actually pays for American beer is getting ripped off...
Heat up a pizza, rather than actually make from scratch...
Why do you care so much that I am getting 'ripped off?' I don't feel I am getting ripped off for what I get for $20/bottle...
Not the same for several reasons. In almost all those cases the markup is ~500% (5X), not ~6,000% (60X). In those cases you are also paying for advertisement, corporate employees, transportation costs, etc. In the case of e-liquids, those costs are marginal. There really is no other comparable example, economically, outside of illegal/black market substances.
I'm not just ranting here. Go ahead and buy the premium stuff, I don't care, but know you're getting ripped off! Certainly, we all have a juice we are willing to pay for. But the truth is what it is.
I don't trust them, nor the vast majority of their products, but I don't have a problem paying for convenience or quality...
US sourced and US made is quite a difference...
People who buy disposable PRC things are getting ripped off. They won't last...
just like i said in previous posts that you obviously are not paying attention to. I am not saying you are getting ripped off, i am saying ejuice is has no justification of having a 1000%+ markup pricetag. I dont care if you are getting ripped off you can spend your money the way you want it, I may have my own opinions of you, but I'm not you and not going to control what you want to spend your money on. The way I chose to spend my money was doing it myself due to me disagreeing with a 1000%+ markup.
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