Are Premium Juice Vendors Taking Advantage of us?

[alicewonderland]

Heres an idea. How much would it cost a diy'r to make 3 juices consistantly and sell it all over the world? Im betting you would have a dollar a ml juice real quick, or be dead azz broke even quicker.
Not to diminish diy, but trying to compare costs from your kitchen, for your use, to juices marketed worldwide is ridiculous.

what does that have anything to do with quality though? from what you're saying just because they sell a juice all over the world doesnt mean it has to be good, but since they sell it all over the world it justifies a high price. I was just saying, you can make good juice yourself for much cheaper than the huge majority of pre-made eliquids whether they are bad or good pre-made e-liquids.

if you want to buy a bottle of a eliquid that you like because you are hooked on it then by all means do so. I personally just have done DIY eliquid to find the flavors I want and vape those happily, there are good DIY batches and cheap DIY batches, just like there are bad pre-mades and good pre-mades. The difference is that both the good and bad DIY is cheaper than the good and bad pre-mades. For people who are running low on money or think eliquid suppliers are 'gouging' them (as the title says), i recommended DIY because it is cheaper overall, and doesn't break the bank when you are looking for a 'everyday vape'. DIY is hit and miss just like pre-mades are hit and miss, DIY is just a cheaper alternative that lets you try out more flavors than buying pre-mades. The comparison was made from the users point of view not the business, I certainly would not buy a 20$ bottle of blueberry flavoring that tastes just like some generic blueberry I can make for 3$ (and yes, I've tried several premade blueberries/cheesecakes/peach and they all compare to what I can make in my own 'kitchen')

also, a lot of these american vendors that went out of business did what you exactly said. Most vape businesses in the US started off as just pre-made e-liquid sellers due to the fact that vaping was new, making the e-liquid was cheap, and the majority of the community was uninformed of DIY and how easy it was. They either went out of business or had to expand their product line and become resellers of products made by bigger companies. Most of what still sells now as I see it are either juices that have a huge following since the old days like bobas bounty, or have fancy advertising/marketing.

Pretty pictures and fancy words sells as much as anything else, but this 3$ bottle of my own diy cinnamon sugar cookie/gingerbread/condensed milk tastes as good as most 20$+ ejuice I've ever bought.

Also, I think i'll name it "The Nightmare Before Christmas", stick it in a 30ML black PET plastic bottle with a dropper and stick it inside the ribcage of a tiny skeleton with a santa hat. 50$, any takers?

 

[AndriaD]

what does that have anything to do with quality though? from what you're saying just because they sell a juice all over the world doesnt mean it has to be good, but since they sell it all over the world it justifies a high price. I was just saying, you can make good juice yourself for much cheaper than the huge majority of pre-made eliquids whether they are bad or good pre-made e-liquids.

if you want to buy a bottle of a eliquid that you like because you are hooked on it then by all means do so. I personally just have done DIY eliquid to find the flavors I want and vape those happily, there are good DIY batches and cheap DIY batches, just like there are bad pre-mades and good pre-mades. The difference is that both the good and bad DIY is cheaper than the good and bad pre-mades. For people who are running low on money or think eliquid suppliers are 'gouging' them (as the title says), i recommended DIY because it is cheaper overall, and doesn't break the bank when you are looking for a 'everyday vape'. DIY is hit and miss just like pre-mades are hit and miss, DIY is just a cheaper alternative that lets you try out more flavors than buying pre-mades. The comparison was made from the users point of view not the business, I certainly would not buy a 20$ bottle of blueberry flavoring that tastes just like some generic blueberry I can make for 3$ (and yes, I've tried several premade blueberries/cheesecakes/peach and they all compare to what I can make in my own 'kitchen')

also, a lot of these american vendors that went out of business did what you exactly said. Most vape businesses in the US started off as just pre-made e-liquid sellers due to the fact that vaping was new, making the e-liquid was cheap, and the majority of the community was uninformed of DIY and how easy it was. They either went out of business or had to expand their product line and become resellers of products made by bigger companies. Most of what still sells now as I see it are either juices that have a huge following since the old days like bobas bounty, or have fancy advertising/marketing.

Pretty pictures and fancy words sells as much as anything else, but this 3$ bottle of my own diy cinnamon sugar cookie/gingerbread/condensed milk tastes as good as most 20$+ ejuice I've ever bought.

Also, I think i'll name it "The Nightmare Before Christmas", stick it in a 30ML black PET plastic bottle with a dropper and stick it inside the ribcage of a tiny skeleton with a santa hat. 50$, any takers?

Excellent post!

I agree; I can make a couple juices that compare *very* favorably to anything available pre-made. But there's one I still haven't mastered: Blueberry Muffin. Since that's the only pre-made that I *absolutely love* and still can't make my own, it doesn't bother me to spend $10/15ml a month on it -- because of these other great ones I've created myself, 15ml of the Blueberry Muffin can *last* a whole month. When I was using it exclusively, it was more like $30/mo -- still very cheap compared to smoking! But I knew if I really tried, I could probably DIY some vapable juices for FAR less, and I was right -- I just can't yet replicate that Blueberry Muffin. But to me, depending on DIY for 2/3 of what I vape, and still buying that 15ml a month of the Blueberry Muffin, is a good compromise.

Andria

 

[donwuan]

Yeah I figured this out middle of last year. If it weren't for low cost juice makers I would diy.

I have a cabinet full of pretty glass bottles of highly recommended juices that are just blah.

But since I'm a 99% dripper high priced premium(i really hate that word) is a no go. Easily burn 30mls in a few days.

 

[skoony]

I think some juice makers are taking advantage of the market as it stands and over-charging for their products. Not all by any means, look at 5 Pawns and the manufacturing processes they use, they're doing full extractions in house on almost all of their flavor ingredients. I have no problem treating myself to a (very) occasional $15-20 bottle of their juice when I can find it, it's worth it!

That being said, I've paid $15-20 for 15ml of "premium" juice from other companies that tasted like they took the crap they sell at gas stations added some turpentine and put it in a fancy bottle.

according to the 5 Pawns website,"We use only USP / food grade ingredients and the best premium pharmaceutical grade nicotine. We disclose the obvious flavors for tasting note reasons but there are many other ingredients that help enhance what you taste. We use only the very best ingredients sourced both domestically and locally, ".
nothing about extractions.
regards
mike

 

[v3nom151]

For the cost of a single bottle of a "Premium E-Liquid", I can make several large bottles of my own blends. Only problem I have is time. No time to sit and experiment, no time to clean up my mess so I rarely do it. I came across a few different juice companies that are either low cost, or have great deals going on. So I usually buy the less expensive stuff in large bottles that will last me a good amount of time. What brands do you guys buy when you don't DIY?

 

[WillyZee]

I like VapersTek nicotine too... the THROAT HIT NICOTINE! Don't have to add so much Flash to a recipe, to get throat hit!

Because I consider a juice with no TH as just unvapable. Sure it may taste good... but it's not finished! If there's no TH, there's no satisfaction.

Andria

Everybody is different ... I gave up throat hit when I quit smoking.

It is all about a tasty vape for me now.

I get more of a pepper taste than throat hit from most vendor juice.

Only 5 Pawns and VapersTek do I not taste a hint pepper.


Sent via iPhone

 

[AndriaD]

For the cost of a single bottle of a "Premium E-Liquid", I can make several large bottles of my own blends. Only problem I have is time. No time to sit and experiment, no time to clean up my mess so I rarely do it. I came across a few different juice companies that are either low cost, or have great deals going on. So I usually buy the less expensive stuff in large bottles that will last me a good amount of time. What brands do you guys buy when you don't DIY?

There's only one ejuice I still buy -- Blueberry Muffin from sweet-vapes.com. In the 15ml, it's about .66/ml, so it's not exactly cheap... but not the most costly out there, either,

Andria

 

[alicewonderland]

ROFL andria that avatar.

but yeah, i started DIY a long time ago before a bunch of these new premium eliquid vendors came out so i dont really have a pre-made ejuice I love as I havent found the need to try all of them. I started back when most of the premade juices I tried were 'perfumy' tasting, so i just bought a bunch of DIY flavorings people recommended that didnt have the perfumy aftertaste. Since then I've tried a bunch of flavorings and am content with what I have found to vape regularly. Recently I have been intrigued by a few of the premade juices though, just waiting on my next paycheck to try em out. I'm just curious about the whole deal with 'mother's milk' and i dont mind throwing some $$ out for a bottle of the 'milkman' just due to the fact that they did an A+++ job with the packaging and presentation, i dont mind giving my money to that company because its obvious they put effort into that.

 

[denali_41]

according to the 5 Pawns website,"We use only USP / food grade ingredients and the best premium pharmaceutical grade nicotine. We disclose the obvious flavors for tasting note reasons but there are many other ingredients that help enhance what you taste. We use only the very best ingredients sourced both domestically and locally, ".
nothing about extractions.
regards
mike

and then there is the "additives" i got a bottle of castle long reserve after sampling it, i was only able to vape 3mls of it before i had to get rid of it
just could not force myself to vape anymore of it !!

i don't have that issue with any of my DIY ,so buying premium is strictly recreational for me now

 

[TaketheRedPill]

I've seen premiums in that range. To me, it's not a lot to charge, but I'm a vaper who prefers low-power devices. If I go thru more than 2ml a day, it's a rarity, so a 15ml bottle could last me well over a month of casual use.

 

[TaketheRedPill]

Most juice vendors' stuff tastes like gasoline. Good juice is hard to come by, or else it would cost $20/120ml from all vendors. Maybe I am wrong though. I have never done DIY, but I will give it a shot, and I will do it right now. Tell me exactly what to buy, right this second, and I will go buy it right now. I will make the juice like you tell me and I will report my honest opinion. If I like it, I'll love you forever. If I don't, well, then I guess I can keep spending lots of money on juice.

I'm serious. Tell me what to buy right now. Make it easy though. No high concentration nic or anything, just ready to go 12mg base will be fine and tell me some flavors to buy.

I guess the best place to start for you is the recipe thread #that is, after you've read the DIY thread warnings#. Find a few recipes that you think you might like with just two or three flavorings. For example, strawberry lemonade is pretty much 2:1 lemonade plus strawberry #but for some people it could be 1-1/2:1 or 2-1/2:1#. Then click the forum suppliers link #above# and look through the approved e-liquid vendors. Find the ones that offer flavor concentrates #and sucralose sweetener# #used by the drop# along with unflavored base in the strength you'd like. Order some zero base VG/PG, too, to mix 3ml experiments. Mix the flavors first then add base to make 3ml. #3ml minus 3 drops base, plus 3 drops of flavoring or 3ml minus 8 drops base plus 8 drops of flavoring - whatever ends up for your taste#. Resist the urge to order a ton of flavorings. Stay focused on your recipe. Write down every 'tweek' or you won't be able to duplicate it later. Some flavors may not be quite there at mixing, but are beautiful after 3 days of airing out in a cool dark place. #search: steeping#. Above all, have fun.

 

[VNeil]

DIY economics:

Cost of Nicotine runs about $50-$100/liter for 100mg concentrate. I use MFS, so I pay $40-$50 ($40 on sale, $50 everyday price for a liter). At $50, diluted to 24mg, that's $0.025 per ml of final product. At 12mg strength, that's $0.021 cents per ml, and that includes PG/VG at $17/liter (the price I pay from MFS). If you paid for a "premium" 100mg nic concentrate at $100/liter, I guess it would almost double that, but still under 5 cents per ml. So the cost of unflavored eJuice is around $0.30 - $0.80 per 15ml bottle, depending on the details and where you source.

Flavoring costs about $5.50/oz or about $0.18/ml. That's where the money is, the flavoring, not the nic base. Juices are typically 20-35% flavoring (up to 50%), but I think 35% is very typical of the recipes on the various DIY threads here.

At 35% flavoring, the cost of 24mg eJuice is about $0.038/ml or $0.58/15ml bottle. Not counting the cost of the bottle, which is about $.50 - $1.00 depending on glass or plastic construction. You can also buy HDPE 15ml bottles for $0.25ea or less, in bulk lots of 100 or so.

So the theoretical cost, assuming the bottle costs are one time costs and reused indefinitely, is as little as $0.58 per 15ml bottle even for the highest nic strengths and very generous flavor mixes.

The real cost? Probably $100 - $200 to get started, and figure $70 - $100/mo as you buy lab glassware, syringes, or scales, mixing plates or ultrasonic cleaners at some point, and dozens upon dozens of flavors. Unless you have more discipline than most people here, you can easily spend as much as you would on commercial juice. You will end up with quite a nice juice bar, though! Although I go through 10ml/day in my dripper, so I could easily spend $300/month on commercial juice, without allowance for trying new flavors. With the DIY the real cost is whatever you make it. Caveat Emptor

If you use only 1-2ml of juice a day, it would be tough to come out ahead with DIY. At my 10ml rate, I could not really afford to vape commercial juice. I just have to apply a lot of discipline and set budgets. I don't need that list of 30 more flavors I want, do I? Hehe.

 

[KindaBlue]

Has anybody wasted their time watching the stupid video from Nicoticket? It was sent out to subscribers to receive a free coupon for a 60 ml bottle of juice.
Some tripped out Rastafollion gives his opinion of a juice, then has you jump thru hoopes to get a coupon sent to you in a month.
Clark is certainly not just vapeing to approve such stupidity. I am now for sure going to grap one of those nock off DIY receipts and mix up my own juice.

 

[Oberon75]

Most juice vendors are an absolute scam and the only reason they can sell for for what they do is because it's considered "Cheaper then Smoking".

Do you really think juice would be $20 to $25 for 30ml or even $30 to $35 for 60ml if cigarettes still cost what they did before the massive federal and state tax hikes? That's very doubtful.

Now I guess that doesn't really matter much to people using modest setups like an eVod or MVP 2.0 since you go through juice so slow but those of us who have evolved to RDA's and Sub-Tanks definitely notice the dishonest markup. And the fact that so many of us are using so much more juice, the prices should actually go down because we are giving them so much more business.

People can make excuses for these companies such as the quality of ingredients they advertise but I see bargain priced vendors who make the exact same claims and sell juice that tastes exactly the same as the popular premium vendors. But like a pair of Beats headphones that teens buy for $300+ when they only cost $14 to manufacture, the only thing that makes them premium is the sticker price.

Something I've really noticed which is why I don't post here so much anymore is incredible bias towards a couple vendors who are registered ECF suppliers. But what does this really mean besides they paid money to be able to market their juice to us on this website? Just because they are registered with ECF, does that really make their juice worth three to four times the cost per ml of the 18 year old hand crafted bourbon after state and federal tax that's currently in my pantry?

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[AndriaD]

Now I guess that doesn't really matter much to people using modest setups like an eVod or MVP 2.0 since you go through juice so slow but those of us who have evolved to RDA's and Sub-Tanks definitely notice the dishonest markup. And the fact that so many of us are using so much more juice, the prices should actually go down because we are giving them so much more business.

Hahaha... that's funny -- because now they have a whole new scam -- selling 3mg for the same price as all the others, even though any vaper could EASILY dilute their own 6mg with PG or VG and save a TON of money. Dilutes the taste? Anybody vaping up such a stormcloud of vapor with such low resistance and massive airflow that you need 3mg, you aren't going to taste it anyway! You're going to suck it straight into your lungs -- which have no tastebuds!

I have a an RDA now, a nice Magma, and I really like it. But I only needed to drop 1mg or 1.5mg, to keep from getting a spinning head. That would be a big problem if I used commercial juice -- easy-peasy since I mostly make my own -- I just adjust the target nic level and off I go.

Andria

 

[Bunnykiller]

40$ for 100ml is a good price... 100ml lasts me a month. I just recently bought a bottle of Nitemare juice for the wifey ( 30ml 22$) since it was a cinnamon flavor she wanted to try. Considering the math... 90ml at 66$ and that was 0 nic juice...

and lets mention expensive juices... Lazarus Vintages... 60$+ for 18ml, Suicide Bunny Obsidian, 120$ for 60ml....

 

[samwest]

Good grief! If I knew I could succeed at DYI I would. Nope still too lazy.

 

[Oberon75]

Hahaha... that's funny -- because now they have a whole new scam -- selling 3mg for the same price as all the others, even though any vaper could EASILY dilute their own 6mg with PG or VG and save a TON of money. Dilutes the taste? Anybody vaping up such a stormcloud of vapor with such low resistance and massive airflow that you need 3mg, you aren't going to taste it anyway! You're going to suck it straight into your lungs -- which have no tastebuds!

I have a an RDA now, a nice Magma, and I really like it. But I only needed to drop 1mg or 1.5mg, to keep from getting a spinning head. That would be a big problem if I used commercial juice -- easy-peasy since I mostly make my own -- I just adjust the target nic level and off I go.

Andria

And I'm the exact opposite. Whether I'm dripping on my Plume Veil, Mutation X or using my Atlantis, i still need 12mg to feel satisfied.

But what's really interesting to me is how these juices are the exact same price, regardless of strength even though these "Premium Vendors" claim they are using "Premium" nicotine. I had a little argument with somebody on this a while back and they claimed their more expensive juice was great and my cheap juice sucked because theirs use quality nicotine. Well even if there was any truth to this which there's not, why is their zero nic juice the exact same price as everything else?

I'm considering getting into DIY whenever my tax money decides to come and stocking up on perhaps 1000ml of 100mg nic. But currently I think I'm doing very good with spending $36 for 240ml of 12mg juice.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

 

[AndriaD]

And I'm the exact opposite. Whether I'm dripping on my Plume Veil, Mutation X or using my Atlantis, i still need 12mg to feel satisfied.

But what's really interesting to me is how these juices are the exact same price, regardless of strength even though these "Premium Vendors" claim they are using "Premium" nicotine. I had a little argument with somebody on this a while back and they claimed their more expensive juice was great and my cheap juice sucked because theirs use quality nicotine. Well even if there was any truth to this which there's not, why is their zero nic juice the exact same price as everything else?

I'm considering getting into DIY whenever my tax money decides to come and stocking up on perhaps 1000ml of 100mg nic. But currently I think I'm doing very good with spending $36 for 240ml of 12mg juice.

When I first got a Kayfun, a lot of folks told me I'd need to decrease my nic level... but I never found that to be true. In fact, later on, I INCREASED my nicotine. I didn't really expect my Magma to be any different, but I did in fact wrap a slightly lower-resistance coil for it, 1.4 instead of 1.8.... and almost right away, I got the head-spins, so I went down from 10.5mg to 9.5mg, and all was well. Then, last week, I decided to give rayon another try.... and using the Magma, I got the head-spins again, a little bit -- though using rayon in my kayfuns never necessitated changing my nic level -- so I went down to 9mg, with the juice I was vaping in the Magma... and all was well.

And you're right, $36 for 120ml is a great price. If I could find juice I really like for that price, I wouldn't have needed to get so gung-ho on DIY. But with all my different concerns -- 1) non-standard nic level, 2) needing to add WTA, 3) concerns about diketones, and 4) general dissatisfaction with most pre-made juices I bought... I figured DIY was where I needed to go, and turns out, I was right.

I wouldn't say DIY is hard, but it does need a lot of "stuff" -- and it can be frustrating, so many "yucks" and near-misses, before you finally come up with something good; but then, I don't think cooking is hard either, but a lot of people don't like to cook, or don't really know how to cook WELL -- and I didn't cook well right off the bat, either; it took many years of regular day-in day-out meals, before I really excelled at it. I expect that after more experience, I'll be really good at DIY, but for now, I'm pretty happy with the 2-3 good ones I've come up with so far. With those 2 or 3, I can get by easily with 15ml of that pre-made Blueberry Muffin each month, and not run my overall vape budget into the ground -- because most of the other stuff I buy is for DIY, and all those bits cost a lot less than pre-made juice -- even the cheap stuff.

Andria

 

[stevegmu]

Most juice vendors are an absolute scam and the only reason they can sell for for what they do is because it's considered "Cheaper then Smoking".

Do you really think juice would be $20 to $25 for 30ml or even $30 to $35 for 60ml if cigarettes still cost what they did before the massive federal and state tax hikes? That's very doubtful.

Now I guess that doesn't really matter much to people using modest setups like an eVod or MVP 2.0 since you go through juice so slow but those of us who have evolved to RDA's and Sub-Tanks definitely notice the dishonest markup. And the fact that so many of us are using so much more juice, the prices should actually go down because we are giving them so much more business.

People can make excuses for these companies such as the quality of ingredients they advertise but I see bargain priced vendors who make the exact same claims and sell juice that tastes exactly the same as the popular premium vendors. But like a pair of Beats headphones that teens buy for $300+ when they only cost $14 to manufacture, the only thing that makes them premium is the sticker price.

Something I've really noticed which is why I don't post here so much anymore is incredible bias towards a couple vendors who are registered ECF suppliers. But what does this really mean besides they paid money to be able to market their juice to us on this website? Just because they are registered with ECF, does that really make their juice worth three to four times the cost per ml of the 18 year old hand crafted bourbon after state and federal tax that's currently in my pantry?

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition

Some of us who are less evolved can have the perfect vape without having to waste 15ml of juice a day... I imagine many didn't quit smoking to save money. I quit to save my life...