Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material

[Vermiform]

A few people stirred up this whole mass hysteria... you can search the forums, youtube, and reddit

Don't want to search. Was just hoping you could elaborate on the "dishonest motives" part of what started this.

 

[drunkenbatman]

The really need to have someone other than "Tina" respond to questions. She has horrible English and her "answers" often seem to raise more questions.

I've been involved with PR sadly. I make allowances for english translantion getting in the way, but in all honesty this more feels like someone feeling like they have to say something but is trying to give their customers the runaround while they run out the clock.

 

[drunkenbatman]

Combining a few of your posts...

Old kanger coils use a synthetic wick, cartos arent organic cotton, cig-a-likes arent organic cotton, the nautilus coils arent organic cotton. But now all of a sudden the Atlantis coils contain poison fibers...

By synthetic wick, you mean silica wick, which is probably the safest all-around. By cig-a-likes not being organic cotton, you mean poly-fill. It's been discussed earlier as to why fiberglass/ceramic paper is different from these in great detail earlier in the thread.

I'd highly encourage you to read through the thread if you have an interest in this. These things are noted with links explaining the why in case you don't trust the sources.

Meh... this whole witch hunt was started over on Reddit by a user who appears to have less than honest motives.

A few people stirred up this whole mass hysteria... you can search the forums, youtube, and reddit.

I've heard variations of this several times... the other one is "Voldemort originally caused this and he gets money from pushing Kanger products" etc. It's all very vague and hand-wavy and conspiratorial, and when pressed it falls apart both in specifics and logic.

The source of something can and maybe should cause you to not accept or adopt something on sheer faith -- but it doesn't mean there isn't a real issue. Someone can't gloss over the information that's been posted in this thread about the dangers of these materials -- and *why* they are considered unfit-for-purpose -- by waving their hand towards a vague conspiracy. Well someone can, but it would come across as grasping for excuses to ignore information they don't like and wish didn't exist.

Aspires biggest mistake is even making a statement at all. They put someone out front that does not have the best grasp of the english lanugage and it just compounds the issue and seems to give the pundits more ammunition for the sky is falling the sky is falling...

I don't think their problem is making a statement -- I think that's good. They feel they have to because if they are asked a point-blank question about something serious and ignore it, you have to ask why. The issue is they are trying to make statements without actually answering the questions people ask, or to actively mislead with them. No amount of translation is going to explain why, when asked a specific question, they give a vague runaround.

You are 100% welcome to make up your own mind and decide what does and doesn't bother you or trip your personal safety threshold. If your moral code doesn't require it, you don't even have to inform others to let them decide for themselves.

However, I'm going to ask you to read through the thread before insuinating I and others are chicken littles -- as handwaving away science and logic isn't great form. What is known and even what isn't known is there in detail.

 

[Squigly]

This is why I will continue to use and support kangertech. They not only know what they are doing they have been in the game since 2007. Can't say the same about aspire as they started operations in 2013. Not to mention I get around a MONTH from my kanger coils. Can't even get more than 2 weeks from aspire coils.

 

[Firecrow]

I'm not challenging you on this, I would just like to know more. This is the first I have heard of this, can you expound on it?

Not going to repeat it. Start here if you want to see the meat of the discussion and photographic references of the concern.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-atlantis-coils-material-18.html#post14890282

No, but that statement is too broad to apply to everything as a rationalization for doing it.

The problem is we are dealing with a lot of unknowns. We don't have long term medical surveillance, vendors don't fully disclose or even know themselves what the materials in their products result in after thermal decomposition and there are no immediate effects or evidence that makes the assessment clear. And a lot of these products come from a country with few controls in place that would otherwise enforce more vigorous consumer protections, and in the name of free trade, we bring these products into our consumer cycle with little oversight (at this point).

I work in the fire service. I teach the chemistry of pyrolysis and hazardous materials. I actively firefight and I wear and service SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus) and I observe and am exposed to a lot of their byproducts.

One thing I am very aware of is respiratory protection as it pertains to byproducts of combustion and byproducts of incomplete combustion. What we have learned in the last five years is that incomplete combustion is far worse than we ever thought. And while we believe vaping is a non-combustion process, I can tell you as someone with *some* expertise in fire science, that when an atomizer leaves charring, an incomplete combustion process has occurred. Thermal decomposition is extremely complex as its input are analog processes - random quantities of heat, oxygen, reducing agents, their ignition temperatures and their chemistry all change under their unique conditions. That's why no two fires are alike. Even the thermal cooling influence of juice on coil affects the results.

If I put on an arson investigators hat and looked at that photo I can tell you there was a high heat source with direct contact to that material, and the missing material was consumed (the reducing agent) and underwent thermal decomposition. Those same patterns in the picture I posted are the same kinds of things we see on furnishings after a fire.

Thermal decomposition produces smoke and smoke is toxic by its nature. It contains aerosols, particulates and gases, even if it is in minute quantities. Worse, it is now suspended in a vapor so as to be undetectable. Short of some extremely complex and expensive analysis, you really don't know what is going up the chimney of an atomizer.

What you can look at is the condition of the reducing agents (wick, coil and char and residue) and make some educated guesses about what might be in it, which is why I take apart atomizers after using them and assess if a combustion process has occurred - that evidence IF present is undeniable.

So, where do we go from here?

Its about personal risk assessment. Gather the information you can. Research as much as you can and be informed as you can about the processes involved and then decide risk versus reward. Nothing is risk free however, some things are clearly more risky than others and that's what makes it a personal decision.

Subohming introduces far more risk because the temperatures create radiant and contact energies high enough to result in thermal decomposition and that is an alarm bell that we should ALL be aware of.

One example from the fire service I can give you. For years we thought just man-made materials gave off toxic byproducts. We have now discovered that even a bale of hay produces hydrogen cyanide (H2S) in varying quantities - we were all shocked by this and the service has now been introducing air monitoring programs at fires to look for this. Hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide (CO - also called when together the "evil twins") are found in organic-only (ordinary combustible class A) fires and are a health risk if inhaled. Hydrogen cyanide attacks muscle tissue and particularly heart muscle. Carbon monoxide bonds with hemoglobin and prevents the transfer of oxygen to the cells in your body. It is now understood firefighters who die from heart attacks, hours or days later after a big fire may actually have been poisoned from these two byproducts. (Reference:http://www.montanafirechiefs.com/Assets/dept_1/PM/pdf/Toxic Byproducts of Combustion.ppt - Slide 51 in particular)

Sorry, its a long post but I wanted to brain dump this to put the picture into the context as I see it. You're welcome to whatever conclusions you want to make yourselves, but that's mine.

 

[Vermiform]

Not going to repeat it. Start here if you want to see the meat of the discussion and photographic references of the concern.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-atlantis-coils-material-18.html#post14890282

Not at all what I was asking. Well aware of all of that part.

 

[Firecrow]

Not at all what I was asking. Well aware of all of that part.

Sorry, I quoted the wrong person, I was responding to Danbrooks2k...

My point is referring to it as hysteria started by someone else when this thread is about a specific topic with a lot of details on the issue is trying to dismiss the issue by referring to something somewhere else that is frankly irrelevant to the current discussion,

 

[Kw5950]

I have vaped as long and hard as I could, on an atlantis coil, up until the point of complete flavor loss. I pulled it apart, saw that the coil itself was as black as could be with a soot like substance. Probably from my ejuice. The material inside had rings of the same color, what looked to be burnt in. Upon further inspection? The discoloration came from the coil itself. And a possible dry hit from when I was excited, day one, and hit too early. My wicking was still saturated. There was no damage as seen on other threads. And if I could? Id post a picture of it in here dismantled. I'm not educated enough on the subject to say for sure? But the wicking seemed to hold up just fine with proper filling of the tank.

Edit: I got my tank just after new years, so the coil went almost three weeks. I also have it on 30w constant DC-DC if that is even relevant.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

One thing I did notice is the fiberglass wick (I am calling it what their lab test sheet calls it) .

Anyone else ill at ease that the name of the material submitted for testing keeps changing on the report?
When I read it first it said "fiberglass paper"

It now says:"ceramic fiber paper".

Was this resubmitted for SGS to rename this or did Aspire perform a bit of Adobe Acrobatics?

On another note, I sell industrial automation components and systems.
This may have been addressed already, but RoHS (pronounced Ro-Haas) is an ELECTRICAL standard essentially insuring that the product itself does not contain certain substances at levels toxic to humans.

Not sure that this testing is even relevant to a product that is heated (possibly burnt) and inhaled.

 

[GinnyTx]

I come from 11 generations of Potters, Ceramic Engineers and the way you're going to get silicosis is inhaling the particles (my dad's lungs on an xray look like someone took buckshot to his lungs) it killed great grand parents etc. so the silica wicks are of concern but you're not really burning it hot enough I don't think to be releasing those particles, and if it is, it's so miniscule, not like inhaling pottery dust or coal mine dust and it'd be less harmful than smoking cigarettes by a long shot imo.

I will gladly switch to the SubTank with organic cotton.soon though...

 

[chargingcharlie]

I come from 11 generations of Potters, Ceramic Engineers and the way you're going to get silicosis is inhaling the particles (my dad's lungs on an xray look like someone took buckshot to his lungs) it killed great grand parents etc. so the silica wicks are of concern but you're not really burning it hot enough I don't think to be releasing those particles, and if it is, it's so miniscule, not like inhaling pottery dust or coal mine dust and it'd be less harmful than smoking cigarettes by a long shot imo.

I will gladly switch to the SubTank with organic cotton.soon though...

I agree. Even if these coils release all of the ceramic fibers they have, into your vapor, the amount inhaled after years of vaping wouldn't be anywhere near what people in the ceramic industries breath in. Add the moisture and cotton barriers, and the risk drops drastically. That doesn't justify things, but I really wish they would just get some testing done, and publish the results, to put this argument to rest.


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[caramel]

I will gladly switch to the SubTank with organic cotton.soon though...

I'm waiting for the Nano one.....

 

[caramel]

RoHS (pronounced Ro-Haas) is an ELECTRICAL standard

RoHS was mainly about eliminating lead from solder. Didn't work very well for reliability though. Those that had a dead Playstation or Xbox know why.

 

[GinnyTx]

I agree. Even if these coils release all of the ceramic fibers they have, into your vapor, the amount inhaled after years of vaping wouldn't be anywhere near what people in the ceramic industries breath in. Add the moisture and cotton barriers, and the risk drops drastically. That doesn't justify things, but I really wish they would just get some testing done, and publish the results, to put this argument to rest.


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you and me both..

I know I've got a tiny touch of it in the bases of my lungs from spending weekends and summers before college working in the Pottery..and I'll guarantee if I vaped for a decade it'd not be as much as maybe a couple years in total exposure from a Pottery.

so hopefully the studies are being conducted now ..I know it's labeled "not for human consumption" on ceramic paper, but this (vaping) is new territory absolutely.

 

[Govols]

I know that this thread is focused on the Atlantis. However, does anyone know what's in the Nautilus mini Bvc coil (that might be deemed hazardous or questionable)?

 

[caramel]

I know that this thread is focused on the Atlantis. However, does anyone know what's in the Nautilus mini Bvc coil (that might be deemed hazardous or questionable)?

It's the same stuff except that due to the smaller dimensions it's better held in place by the coil / mesh.

 

[Govols]

You mean smaller on the nautilus correct ....by that i understand you to say that the nautilus is held in place better due to it's smaller size and closer proximity to the wick/mesh...correct. ..or did i get that backwards?

 

[EBates]

53 yrs. smoking here, and NOT ONE TIME did I question what was in the tobacco, paper or filters. While we do not want to go from the frying pan into the fryer AFTER being duped by the tobacco companies and AFTER being duped again by the FDA allowing this posion to stay on the market, I am willing to be the lab rat and betting that Aspire does NOT want to to dissimate their customer base because the potential is so big over the long haul. What sense does it make to kill your customers?

Big Tobacco has been doin' it for years. So, it's a proven successful business model, right?

 

[Mark Denison]

Supposedly Aspire switched to cotton wicking. Anyone confirm this or is it still "coming"?

 

[rocketman29]

Well, they just redesigned the Nautilus coils with much larger holes.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...us-mini-bvc-w-larger-wicking-holes-stock.html

I am hoping they did this because they changed the wicking material and needed the larger holes.