Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material

Status
Not open for further replies.

chargingcharlie

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 14, 2014
431
546
MA
A bit back I posted I had an open question about the cotton liner and it's effectiveness at stopping fibers from migrating. My concern was whether the thin cotton liner would stop particulate/fiber migration at all -- even while wet and not compromised. I was/am concerned because:

(1.) This idea only comes from Aspire in their PR release

(2.) The coil design was specifically explained in terms of wicking and performance; the idea that the cotton was protective only came after the complaints.

Which doesn't mean that the cotton can't be doing double-duty -- a good design might well do that! So it seems we need to know:

(1.) The specifics of the cotton liner being used. It's pore size (space between fibers), etc.

(2.) What weave/makeup would be necessary to stop fiberglass dust/fibers from migrating with the eliquid and being vaped.

The below is what I came to, as well as how I came to it so you can make up your own mind or help fill in mine.

====================
TLDR
====================

Setting aside everything else: I don't see how the liner could work -- at all -- except from keeping the fibers from right against the coil. However there are some open questions listed at the bottom.

====================
Particle Size
====================

There's also a neat chart here which gives an example of micron sizes and when things become visible to the naked eye. Aside from just jagged shards causing problems, the realllly nasty stuff is under 5 microns.

https://www.coloradoci.com/bin-pdf/5270/ParticleSize.pdf

For the fine crystaline dust at the sizes we're talking about, you won't actually see it.

====================
Necessary Pore Size
====================

I spent some time looking through what is supposed to be used or is effective for the type of particles we're worried about, as well as other cases where cotton is used as a filter.

[1.] Dust masks

They generally go by effectiveness ratings, e.g. 95%. It generally needs to be specifically rated for fiberglass dust/fibers. Ones that block glycerin and such are R or P series, which obviously doesn't apply as it's letting the eliquid through. Many manufacturers generally don't list their materials for this, so I resorted to things like alibaba to see what was sold in bulk for those making them.

Commonly it was 100% non-woven spunbond polypropylene/polyester, with N95 (95% effective) ones being 3-ply. Figuring out what spunbond was took me to a dupont data sheet:

http://www2.dupont.com/Separation_Solutions/en_US/assets/downloads/K17041-1Polypropylene.pdf

The pore size for dupont spunbond polypropylene ranges from 56-125 microns. Since we're generally looking at fibers and particulates that are much smaller <5, the standard stuff doesn't look like it would work. There are others that handle smaller sizes better, but much of the increased effectiveness is due to stacking and pleating the layers so they become pads. For an idea of thickness, you can generally squirt 2ml of blood on them without it making it through.

The ones that work the best seem to fully enclose the face and only allow air through special filter valves.

[2.] Oiled cotton filters

There are actually oiled cotton gauze filters, so this looks promising. Two thin layers of metal mesh have thick layers of cotton gauze between them, and a special oil is applied to the cotton. These appear to be generally used for higher-performance auto stuff, and are designed to be free-flowing so the engine can get the air it needs. They work best for bigger things, but not fine dust. They don't seem relevant.

[3.] Paper air filters

Similar to the above, but these are the ones you see near furnaces or engines, and they're generally pleated. The folds help increase surface volume which means they have to be replaced less. It turns out some can do up to 90%, not good enough but better -- but it also turns out these aren't normal cotton but a very specific industrial paper that loses effectiveness when wet. It's also pretty thick, so this doesn't seem relevant.

====================
Cotton Pore Size
====================

Aspire has said the liner is 100% organic cotton. No special coatings or anything.

Unfortunately, regular cotton gauze on it's own seems to actually be designed to be porous -- that's one of the reasons why it can absorb liquid so well -- the liquid is filling in all the holes and surface tension between the fibers helps keep it there. Looking up the pore size for cotton (I tried) is like doing it for a screen door.

Based on what I've seen, there isn't that much variation with this between manufacturers as people want their cotton gauze to be gauze.

====================
Conclusions:
====================

Aspire says due to the cotton being there it's safe, so we could infer they think fiberglass contacting the coil directly would be a bad thing -- yet it appears almost all of the used coils have compromised cotton.

However, even if that cotton isn't compromised, there is no magic to the cotton liner, they've said it's 100% organic cotton. It can't have the pore size and thickness to stop fine crystaline dust & fibers from migrating with the eliquid right to the coil and up into your lungs.

If it's the case that the fibers hitting the coil exacerbates things, which is not only possible but maybe likely, it may be helping in that way. But it is no barrier to fibers and dust of the size we are really concerned about.

====================
Open Questions:
====================

(1.) How well does eliquid transport dust & fibers?

(2.) What role does temperature would play in increasing or decreasing migration.

(3.) What role does temperature play when these fibers/dust hit the coil? Aspire doesn't seem to think that's OK, but does it actually affect the particulates themselves?

(4.) What the H, Aspire?

As always, if I'm missing something or you can help me fill something in it's appreciated.

Great post!

Warning: The following comments coming from a person with no degree in science

While pore size is important, it's hard to really tell what the pore size needs to be when the material if saturated with eJuice. Remember that these <5µ particles, which are the ones we are concerned with, are now suspended in liquid and not airborne. So, even if some do make it trough the fabric pores, then what happens from there.? I would think that some may stay clung to the outside edge of the pores and, when heated, they could actually clump together. If they do make it through, and into the vapor, then there's also the question of "how much gets through, and is that amount a concern?". Unfortunately, I don't think we'll know these answered until some pretty expensive and controlled testing is done.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

tj99959

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
  • Aug 13, 2011
    15,116
    39,600
    utah
    Very lively discussion over at vap1ngUndergr0und along the same lines as this one. Looks like they've taken a lot of heat and are publicly taking out their ceramic wick. I guess I can consider this a response to my inquiry (in part) along with a lot of other posts and responses to them in regards to this atomizer. I didnt receive any response to my letter and I don't expect to, but this move by Aspire is a tacit admission of a problem along the lines we've been discussing.

    IMO it simply means that they will build whatever the market wants.

    I think we should suggest tea bags & blue foam.
     

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA
    Very lively discussion over at vap1ngUndergr0und along the same lines as this one. Looks like they've taken a lot of heat and are publicly taking out their ceramic wick. I guess I can consider this a response to my inquiry (in part) along with a lot of other posts and responses to them in regards to this atomizer. I didnt receive any response to my letter and I don't expect to, but this move by Aspire is a tacit admission of a problem along the lines we've been discussing.

    Just remember that, when a company buckles and makes changes to a product due to public complaints, it doesn't imply that anything was wrong in the first place. Sometimes damage control just makes more sense once the fear has been implanted into the minds of their customers. Just take a look at the whole debacle between the "Food Babe" and Subway (and some other companies she's gone after).


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

    Firecrow

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 16, 2014
    359
    402
    Toronto, Ontario
    Just remember that, when a company buckles and makes changes to a product due to public complaints, it doesn't imply that anything was wrong in the first place. Sometimes damage control just makes more sense once the fear has been implanted into the minds of their customers. Just take a look at the whole debacle between the "Food Babe" and Subway (and some other companies she's gone after).

    I agree - but, couldn't really care what their motivation is, as long as the result is the same. I gave up a long time ago expecting large companies to act in anything other than their own financial interests. That's the only real power we have as consumers.
     

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA
    I agree - but, couldn't really care what their motivation is, as long as the result is the same. I gave up a long time ago expecting large companies to act in anything other than their own financial interests. That's the only real power we have as consumers.

    I hear you...but what if their current material proves to be as safe, or more safe, than a wick made completely out of cotton? The problem is that, once the pitchforks come out it doesn't matter anymore, because the damage is already done. From a business standpoint, it could be more financially feasible for them to just switch to cotton rather than to have their current material tested and presented in a way that would provide enough solid data for people to change their mind about the safety of their product. This was the case with Subway...the additive they used for making their bread fluffy (which is in a ton of bread from numerous manufacturers) was perfectly safe. But, the damage had already been done. The Food Babe is currently going after beer companies for using PG in their products, and you'd be amazed to see how many people believe her when she calls PG "anti-freeze". She is either really stupid (my first guess), or she's purposely confusing people so they think PG is as harmful as ethylene glycol.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

    Firecrow

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 16, 2014
    359
    402
    Toronto, Ontario
    I hear you...but what if their current material proves to be as safe, or more safe, than a wick made completely out of cotton? The problem is that, once the pitchforks come out it doesn't matter anymore, because the damage is already done. From a business standpoint, it could be more financially feasible for them to just switch to cotton rather than to have their current material tested and presented in a way that would provide enough solid data for people to change their mind about the safety of their product.

    I don't think they have the technical depth or interest in answering those questions. Also, if they did test it and found it to be unsafe, I doubt they would admit to that liability. Its the quickest way from A to B - they just want to sell atomizers. And if they use cotton, it avoids the whole debate since cotton is used in rebuilding and in other atomizers and seems to be accepted as the safer alternative by the vapers who are most vocal. It would also not take a lot of effort to produce a silica wick version as well - how well it will produce vapor is another question but we will see what they come up with. By sticking with standard materials the community is used to using they can defend from criticism. And most people won't remember this debate, as the original design was only available for a short period of time - and most consumers don't care, its a small but vocal minority that were loud about this.
     

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA
    I don't think they have the technical depth or interest in answering those questions. Also, if they did test it and found it to be unsafe, I doubt they would admit to that liability. Its the quickest way from A to B - they just want to sell atomizers. And if they use cotton, it avoids the whole debate since cotton is used in rebuilding and in other atomizers and seems to be accepted as the safer alternative by the vapers who are most vocal. It would also not take a lot of effort to produce a silica wick version as well - how well it will produce vapor is another question but we will see what they come up with. By sticking with standard materials the community is used to using they can defend from criticism. And most people won't remember this debate, as the original design was only available for a short period of time - and most consumers don't care, its a small but vocal minority that were loud about this.

    I totally agree with you. My only concern, and I feel it's a very valid one, is that we could be eliminating a viable (and possibly safer) alternative, due to a small group of very vocal opposers. IMO, nobody wins with this type of outcome. A real win would be for someone to actually do a study on the material and the effects of its use in vaping. But, a company who isn't in the healthcare business with huge funding, isn't going to do that. It doesn't mean they don't care, or that the material is bad, it merely means that they can't afford to do it or that they think the amount it would cost wouldn't be worth the return in investment.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

    Jazzman

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Dec 24, 2013
    947
    2,115
    High Desert, CA
    Sometimes I just have to sit back and chuckle at the vaping community in general. I remember all the arguments almost a year ago about how unsafe cotton was and how much safer silica was. Even to the point where a guy like Dimitri was blaming cotton on aching throat muscle issues and saying it was unsafe, and yet I see him use it today. Now cotton has become the safe wicking material, although I haven't seen a scientific study to prove this to be the case. I haven't seen a serious study to say it isn't either. Fickle, fickle industry.

    I'm not saying I think Aspires wicking material is safe... I honestly don't know, but I think what I've been hearing from the community is mostly conjecture at this point and it would take some serious research to have a definitive answer either way. What I am reasonable confident in though, is Aspire has had a stellar 2014 as a company and seems to pay close attention to their customers wants and developing products that meet those wants. In fact, in the Guide to Vaping year end awards Aspire won best hardware manufacturer (Gold) and all 3 top spots in best clearomizer (Gold, Silver, Bronze). This is clearly a company that is constantly gauging their customers desires and adjusting company strategy to take advantage of the whims of a fickle industry. So IMO, changing to cotton is most likely just a reaction to what they see as a positive marketing strategy and likely has little to do with the efficacy as a wicking material or safety of the materials being used. They may be in the corporate board room scratching their heads wondering why this material is being persecuted when according to their own research it is a major step forward, but deciding if that's what the vaping community wants and it meets corporate goals they will make it happen.
     

    nopoison

    Senior Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Aug 26, 2013
    264
    269
    Columbus, OH
    I'm in favor of switching to organic cotton. It is a little bit of a curious thing for them to ditch their "patented" new wicking material completely and forever though. I'm sure it's a business decision to leave it behind or not. However, if they went to the extent of patenting it I wonder how much consideration they are giving to getting this new material validated in hopes of having a unique and possibly the best atomizer wicking material. I also feel that if that is even a possibility, they will need to put more time into a more effective way to utilize it. It's plain to see that their current augmentation is burning out prematurely.

    Bring on the .5, 1.0 and 1.5 ohm cotton replacement heads at an affordable price that are at least 80% to 90% as effective as the current offering! :) Ya just can't beat the easy draw on these things! Yet!! ;)
     
    Last edited:

    BlkWolfMidnight

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 20, 2012
    736
    819
    Virginia
    Amorphous silica and and polyfill wraps (in cartomizers) have been studied and no dangerous emissions have been found. Check the Drexel study (there have been many others). CASAA website has links to other studies, too. Look at Dr. Farsalinos's studies, also.

    Its kind of funny about the aspire thing,
    Former Smokers of Cig's put 4k chemicals in their body to include one radioactive isotope and never once myself did question it, there has been more research on the Ill effects of wicking material alone then ever in the history of cigs in total.

    If it is cotton then yah its prob. bad for you to breath in, I can agree there. As for Fiberglass your body will expel that as its a foreign particle (if it were so dangerous, people installing insulation would have kicked the bucket long ago). Remember that the body is an amazing machine that will protect itself from foreign particles (you cough because vapor is a foreign particle, so is Nicotine for that matter). I'd say that since the aspire has a rebuild-able head option then there is the possibility to rebuild the heads until they get this sorted out, be your own quality control in a sense.

    Just a thought, I do agree with you however on this one Katya.
     

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA
    It is a little bit of a curious thing for them to ditch their "patented" new wicking material though.

    There's really nothing curious about it at all. A smart company takes the fastest and most effective course of action to get rid of a problem; and this would be exactly that. For all we know, they can just be shelving their material until testing is done that would provide enough solid data to make the general public trust it more. That type of extensive testing isn't inexpensive, and it doesn't happen quickly.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA

    drunkenbatman

    Ultra Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 26, 2014
    1,340
    1,271
    It's windy, USA
    chargincharlie said:
    I hear you...but what if their current material proves to be as safe, or more safe, than a wick made completely out of cotton?

    That's another mental contortion. :p Again, if they have any science showing how fiberglass particles and fiber are safe nothing has stopped them from sharing it when asked repeatedly. "Well, we use it" is not science. And if there is ever science done that goes against the decades of science we have saying it's bad juju, I'll definitely reevaluate.

    Occam's razor would suggest anything but it being safe with them having a stack of science they can't share because aliens. ;)

    firecrow said:
    Very lively discussion over at VOLDEMORT along the same lines as this one.

    I missed the discussion, I'll have to head over and see if I've missed anything.

    jazzman said:
    I remember all the arguments almost a year ago about how unsafe cotton was and how much safer silica was.

    For the record, I'm in the camp that says general silica wicking is probably the safest because you don't need to worry about combustion and smoke isn't great for you *but* we are again into the equivalence fallacy -- cotton vs silica is simply in a seperate league from fiberglass.

    *gives the horns*
     
    Last edited:

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA
    That's another mental contortion. :p .

    It's not a mental contortion. Your assumption that their material is less safe than cotton when used in the same application is just as silly as anyone who thinks the opposite. Swapping the materials just because a small number of people in the vaping community "believe" it's better doesn't do any of us any good.

    Again, if they have any science showing how fiberglass particles and fiber are safe nothing has stopped them from sharing it when asked repeatedly. "Well, we use it" is not science. Occam's razor would suggest anything but it being safe with them having a stack of science they can't share because ALIENS. ;)

    This is the part that I take issue with. You're expecting them to prove that their material is safe while there is currently no proof (to the degree that you want) that shows that using cotton for the same purpose is safe. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't their patent currently pending for this wicking material? If so, then they'd be stupid to release any information about their material, or how it's made and/or treated, since they aren't currently protected under patent law.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Firecrow

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 16, 2014
    359
    402
    Toronto, Ontario
    As for Fiberglass your body will expel that as its a foreign particle (if it were so dangerous, people installing insulation would have kicked the bucket long ago). Remember that the body is an amazing machine that will protect itself from foreign particles (you cough because vapor is a foreign particle, so is Nicotine for that matter).

    BWM: the lungs are a particular case because the only exit is through capillary action of fluids through very fine cellular membrane material and out the blood stream - think of the lungs as a fine particle filter. If it goes it and its too big (and we are talking microns here) to pass through the capillary membranes and if it isn't close to the cilia in the bronchial openings, its staying there for the rest of your life - the lungs don't "flush" so to speak. And once a particle is in there, if the body has an immune reaction to it, white blood cells clump on it to isolate the foreign material from the body creating the beginnings of a tumor. What causes it to go necrotic or metastasize into cancer is not well understood but the mechanism is through medical observation. Lung disease and particulate penetration of the lungs is well documented and understood in that respect. Best to avoid it.

    Nicotine is water soluble so yes, it will pass through as do most water soluble chemical compounds. Fiberglass is not water soluble.
     
    Last edited:

    chargingcharlie

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 14, 2014
    431
    546
    MA
    FYI, take look at this MSDS for a specific ceramic paper. http://minsealorder.com/MSDS/MSDSCTPaper&Blanket.pdf

    It mentions that "possible" cancer is only a concern from "LONG-TERM HEAVY INHALATION" and it mentions:

    "Other Possible Effects:
    Inhalation: If inhaled in sufficient amount, it may cause irritation to respiratory tract, scratchiness of the nose or throat, cough or chest discomfort."

    That doesn't sound much different than the information regarding cotton fibers, does it? The point I'm trying to make is that some people are demonozing a product, and demanding a replacement based on the unknown safety levels of both products.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    drunkenbatman

    Ultra Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jan 26, 2014
    1,340
    1,271
    It's windy, USA
    It's not a mental contortion. Your assumption that their material is less safe than cotton when used in the same application is just as silly as anyone who thinks the opposite.
    ...
    This is the part that I take issue with. You're expecting them to prove that their material is safe while there is currently no proof (to the degree that you want) that shows that using cotton for the same purpose is safe.

    Considering there is a metric ton of data and science saying fiberglass particles are bad when inhaled even in smaller amounts, and nothing about cotton in the same league... it isn't an assumption, it's a sane default position. The onus is on the manufacturer to show something known to be inherently unsafe has been made safe.

    Again, there is every reason to believe that fiberglass as a wicking medium is not safe. There is zero reason to think it might be. I've never seen science showing cotton fibers or dust in those amounts is dangerous, and that includes the links you posted earlier where you said it caused cancer.

    We're going to have to agree to disagree here, I and others have made a lot of posts as to why fiberglass is considered not fit for purpose and I've seen nothing showing how it would be. People can draw their own conclusions.

    Swapping the materials just because a small number of people in the vaping community "believe" it's better doesn't do any of us any good.

    That's a mental leap, that requires steps to be invented to get from A to B. For that to be true, for a start it'd have to be safe, and there's zero evidence to say it is. There's zero *reason* to think it is. None. Going against decades of science is a 4-year old chinese company saying they think it is in a PR release on a forum, while they pull information they already released.

    Occam's razor is that they didn't/don't have data showing it's safe, and awareness is spreading. It'd be really easy to disprove it/me. They're choosing to move away from it instead.

    Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't their patent currently pending for this wicking material?

    This was discussed earlier in the thread -- there doesn't appear to be any patent-pending material, people seem to have gotten confused by the terminology and are making leaps.
     
    Last edited:
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread