Atomizer Laser

[thorn]

Has anybody thought about using a laser to vaporize liquid? Once past the technical aspects of separation, the laser would heat the liquid and eliminate the need for metals touching it. Given that I have not read up more on temperature of atomizers, the following video shows a "cheap" DIY version of a laser lighting the fuse of a small fireworks smoke bomb. I would tend to think this would remain a permanent reliable burn without the need for replacement every few weeks like current atomizers. Other thoughts on this?

Cheapy Lighter Laser Burner

pasrts at: laserdiy.com

 

[candre23]

You would get wildly varying results based on the color and composition of the liquid you use. Just as regular light passes through clear liquid, so would laser light. The efficiency would be orders of magnitude lower than a simple nichrome wire.

 

[thorn]

The laser could be directed at the topmost point of the wicking material, preferably a material with a higher melting point than the liquid. (Or the bottom of the cart if lack of wicking material). The wicking material could be black to prevent the laser from passing through. This route would also limit the extra questionable ingredients some vendors have put in their liquids.

 

[schaedj]

The heat output of the low cost lasers is in the 150mW range. The
Sweet spot of the atomizers in current use is 6-8W. Admittedly, the focus of the laser would allow you to vaporize liquid with a lower wattage, but I'm not sure you would get the vapor volume people are looking for at that power level.

 

[whitehand]

Focal length is a problem as well. The beam must be perfectly focused to achieve the temperature needed from such a small, in my case 180mW, (affordable) diode. The red diode laser that I built and set up, focused at about 12 in. It vaporized the e-juice, alright, but only a spot about the size of a large pin "point"... not even the size of a pin "head"! Needless to say, yielding a very low volume of vapor, about as much as you could expect from a “pin” size diameter curl of smoke. Also, I could only get the juice to vap when applied to a black surface. Then as the juice evaporated at the “point” of focus, it was “gone”. I had to move the beam slightly… or the target, to get to a “fresh” spot. Another interesting test note, is that as the vapor “flashed” it created a “white” vapor, which instantly reflected the beam, causing the “spot to cool”. Then, as the vapor cleared away there was a bit of a wait for the heat to build back up before it would “poof” again. I would suggest that the beam be pointed at the "bottom" of the wicking surface, to allow the vap to "rise", maybe clearing the "reflective smoke" sooner. In my observations of the beam striking the "side" of the target, there was an "out blast" at the moment of vaporization. The smoke "fired" directly back (horizontally) at the laser source for a few mm. Thus the reflection/cooling/re-heat cycle. But really cool to observe!

My next step is to get the "optical glass" collector lens and pulse the diode. My test was performed with the plastic lens supplied with the unit. This should increase the power, to maybe 200 mW and hopefully the burn size/vapor production at the beam’s focal length. Still, trying to get the focal length to fit inside a PV, will be yet another challenge. This maybe doable with glass optics, as they do get laser DVD burners to focus within some very limited spaces. But I have not had time to set up my optics lab yet and was very disappointed with the tiny output from my out of the box trial run.

 

[thorn]

Awesome info there whitehand. What about battery->laser pointing at bottom of cart->vape rising out of top of cart? That might help with vape getting in the way of the laser continually heating up liquid. Will the vapor rise through the liquid or dissolve back into it? (Never really thought of that scenario before).

 

[Lambontae]

If the laser couldn't vaporize liquid directly, could it heat metal from underneath to produce vapor? Laser life and battery usage vs typical atty?

 

[whitehand]

Tried to get it to work from the bottom like you described. Seems to be too much of a "cooling" effect, for vapor to escape... or maybe like you described... it "dissolved". These small lasers pack a lot of heat but only for a small surface area... and for a short depth (focal length). Kinda like trying to boil a pan of water with a match!

Thus the idea for the next step... "more power", which i think will translate to a bigger "spot" and maybe for a greater depth.

 

[thorn]

Don't go all out for yourself on more power. I know they get really pricey over the 150mw mark. Maybe cheaper in another year. What about a cart that has a hole at the bottom that is too small for liquid to run out of but big enough for vapor to escape from? Guess the laser would have to be angled for that somehow or offset. Maybe the hole at the bottom would go into another "chamber" where vapor could escape straight up/out.

 

[ejoker]

mebee try sommat lika dees?

 

[Lambontae]

Im having a moment here...


Am I wanting this to work because I want a better atty or for the fact that lasers are ****ing awesome?

 

[KonaNeil]

I had this idea several months ago. Discussed the concept with a laser physicist/smoker I worked with on a fiber optical system. Efficiency is the deal breaker.

Now if we could only convince people that PVs with integral wheelbarrows make a cool fashion statement....

 

[whitehand]

I like the hole idea. But you could not use clear juice... would have to be "almost" black... even dark brown doesn't stop/hold the beam's power. Black juice???? Yuck! And I have heard that is not good to use colorings in your juice... but I think that is because it clogs up the coil/atty... but i guess that is what we are discussing here ... NOT the conventional atty.

 

[bobtow]

I'm glad you asked about lasers. I was womdering about a tiny thin bowl as the focal point. But maybe the bowl and the isolators would be too fragile.

 

[whitehand]

thorn, bobtow:

The bowl material would have to be super thin… What did you have in mind… a glass contact lens? And, also capable of transferring heat very specifically to a very small area on the upper side. The rate of heat transfer of almost any material could have a cooling effect, preventing the spot of liquid from reaching the vaporization point. Similarly the depth of the liquid could only be a "film thickness”, else wise the surrendering liquid would transfer the heat. Like having to heat a whole pan of water before any of it starts to vaporize.

That is why I liked the hole idea that thorn brought up. There would be nothing between the beam’s FP (focal point) and the juice. As the juice, at the FP, vaporized and rose, the liquid’s viscosity/surface tension would pull the surrounding liquid into the void just “blasted” by the beam. Thus, constantly feeding the “blast hole”…more or less a self wicking concept???? For that matter maybe a real wick could be laid around the “blast hole” several mm away, to constantly “bulk feed” the hole.

Speaking of “blasting”, would anyone care to guess which way the “out blast” would go? Back toward the beam/source… or would it act as “jet propulsion” up and ejecting the vapor? Remember Newton’s Law of Motion, “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”… so if the liquid was very thick above the “microscopic blast sight”, then it would go down… and no vapor where we need it... if not, then maybe we have got somthing????

 

[thorn]

One device that has a decent design is the dog water dish with upside down water bottle. It leaks out water to a small "bowl" and stops with vacuum. When dog drinks water, air is let into bottle and more liquid is released. The little "bowl" of drinkable/heatable liquid could be a small ball shape with a smaller hole on top so it does not leak out when not in use but vapor could get through the hole. Would have to eventually protect this small area from breaking but that would come later. Concentrate on heating this "ball"/thin film spot. Again, maybe the "ball" could be in a secondary hollow chamber to direct vapor to the mouthpiece. Do you think this vacuum action would slow vaping too much? I don't recall reading how long it actually took to vaporize a thin film spot.

 

[whitehand]

thorn,
Not sure about the dog water bottle vacuum idea. I was thinking that there is a spring under the ball. When the vacuum inside the bottle was sufficient to overcome the spring’s compression tension, the ball unseats and allows air into the bottle which allows the water to flow into the bowl. If so, I would think that the spring in the “vapor system” would have to be incredibly light… to the point even accidental vibration could trigger it unless we figure a way to get some mass vapor production/use going on. Still you might have a good idea for a cart mod!

Honestly, I cannot recall how long it took to vaporize the “spot”. It was agonizingly long, I know that! I did the initial set-up/test back in November and then got distracted by the holidays… maybe two or three seconds. It is hard to say, as the target was handheld. Understand that my initial test was rather crude and done in too much of a hurry. I spent most of the day piecing the diode driver/controller board together, testing and actually getting the diode to light up. That day, I was more interested in seeing if I could actually burn or blast something! Which it did… lighting matches, burned wood, cut/burned paper and most wonderfully… it vaped E-juice!

FYI, the source was on a stable platform, I think I clamped it with a pair of vice grips and laid it on the table… not very scientific… and the target was handheld… not scientific at all. However once I got the target to the sweet spot… poof, a thin vapor curl. But then, had to move the target a fraction to get to fresh juice and then find the sweet spot again. Clearly without more precise control of the target’s XYZ axis it was wasting time and unnecessary to go any further. So, I have set it aside, until I can get something like an optics bench set up, dig out my protective eyewear, and conduct a real experiment/study. I will start with 1.) tweaking the diode driver to max output 2.) install the glass/optical collector/concentrator lens and 3.) control the XYZ axis both in the horizontally and vertical planes. Achieving 1 and 2 should produce upwards of 200mW from the diode that I have. Of course “Pulsing” the diode (to further increase mW power) will be a whole different project in and of itself.

 

[bobtow]

My thought were more on the line of a gold or silver dish about the size of the current coil. Maybe a little wider to be able to catch the eliquid oozing from the base of the bridge. Three or four contact points holding the bridge in place.

 

[bobtow]

The last sentence should read, Three or four contact points holding the dish in place.

 

[traderdan]

Whitehand
I've seen diodes on e-bay that are 1watt power . They show some of them hooked to 1 to 2 volt power supply's How involved is it making a diode work can you hook them to a battery supply and run them here is a 1 watt diode on e-bay now

( 808nm 1000mw 1W burning IR laser diode. USA 3 day ship - eBay (item 280486944137 end time Apr-10-10 09:43:39 PDT) )
I would really like to know more about what would be involved to get these working
thanks Dan