I've tried looking, but none of the online legal resources seem to be up to date.
Australian ban; Egar illegal
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Believe me they can, some goverments and the anti-smokers don't want a device that looks cool and reminds a lot a regular cigarette, this is because this devices could be make "smoking" attractive again, in my country they'd ban everything that reminds you a cigarette (the nicotine is not banned) perhaps here we can use this devices but we can't import, produce, sell or promote them.
They can ban paraphernalia, they did it here with pipes and bongs the display purposes only loophole was shut down.
"and the ban was a result of political pressure and the Government's inability to collect the tobacco tax from their sale."
Enough Said America will be soon in line to ban them for the same exact reason.. i really hope that isnt true..
Enough Said America will be soon in line to ban them for the same exact reason.. i really hope that isnt true..
and if i read that incorrectly TB the post says they are banning the Nicotine not the device itself. and how exactly can the ban the nicotine without opening every single bottle or cart to test it?
Can I play devil's advocate here and say that the apparent reason why they were banned is because of the tiny containers of deadly poison? I don't know if that politician meant e-smoking is dangerous because of the nicotine, or if he meant that, for instance, consumers with no chemical experience ordering half litre bottles of 38mg/ml nicotine (enough to kill 250 people!) as in a thread elsewhere on this forum is dangerous?
Obviously I don't support banning anything and I think this is a stupid move, but one of the hardest parts IMO will be convincing people that the nicotine can be distributed safely. Simply childproofing the bottles won't be enough; they can be broken by children, ordered by suicidal people, or by 'terrists'.
I stand to be corrected but I reckon tobacco and pharmaceutical companies will be concerned but not until these attract more than a few thousand people in every country. They aren't penetrating the developing world, which is their biggest new market.
NQ is correct in his logic ( and devils advocacy) I think the reasons we are up in arms is because there are many many poisons on our supermarket/hardware shelves that will kill many,many people....this ban on the retail sale, is based more on the e-smoking threat ( as it is unregulated and probably more importantly untaxed) than on public health issues... a bottle of straight bleach has the capacity to kill how many toddlers? a bottle of whisky? what about the carbaryl concentrate in my shed for spraying vegies? not to mention the simple ingestion of cigarettes will kill a child.
For many years nicotine has been available to anyone ( for instance gardeners ) at a MUCH higher concentration 100g/litre !!!... suddenly our 4mg cartridge is the cause of worry and kneejerk?
It it wasnt e-smoking that was the problem , why does the minister feel the need to mention the use sale and possession of e-cigarettes being unlawful in his own media release?
For many years nicotine has been available to anyone ( for instance gardeners ) at a MUCH higher concentration 100g/litre !!!... suddenly our 4mg cartridge is the cause of worry and kneejerk?
It it wasnt e-smoking that was the problem , why does the minister feel the need to mention the use sale and possession of e-cigarettes being unlawful in his own media release?
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I think much of this is true; however, don't expect politicians to think like this. It's easier to ban something than regulate it. Australia recently banned a certain member of the sage family which is not a poison and has no proven bad effects, but telling them it's as harmless as garden sage is pointless because this particular sage, given the way it was marketed, sounds really bad.
Same way as you can say that ordering poisons on the internet sounds dangerous. If I say, I'm going to get some whiskey, that's fine, but if I say I'm off to get a litre of C2H60, a chemical used as an industrial solvent, which kills hundreds of thousands worldwide and can cause death if its fumes are inhaled, that sounds bad. If we want to make ourselves look either inoccuous or harmless it's up to our suppliers, unfortunately.
Incidentally, is there still no text of this law available? Whenever anything is banned here, there is always a Statutory Instrument or Act available to view. In Europe you usually have a head start on any law like this while it is debated. Did your minister just decide this fell under some other law?
NQ the minister simply added nicotine to the list of scheduled poisons not available to the public for retail . more interestingly it was couched in the terms
"NICOTINE for human use when it is a Schedule 7 poison. (effective 1 January 2009)"
i.e DIRECTLY aimed at e-smoking methinks?
There was no publication of the intent to schedule as far as I am aware , and no-one to date has been able to find it , the closest I can find is in an internal Govt report in June 2008 stating possible outcomes that were awaiting "Further legal consideration " poli speak for we havent found the guy to give us the advice we want to see yet ?... This report was not made public and there was no public debate advertised that I or anyone else was aware of.
As to legislation , no-one has yet been able to locate anything apart from the Ministers press release hinting at it ... Letters have been sent direct to the minister but I am sure a response will be slow in coming.
In short I would perceive it as a well orchestrated, underhanded attempt . This thread is long , but there are many salient points of view that make it good reading , and a warning for others to proactively look at their own countries.
Currently there are forum members trying to source legislation issues and whether the correct avenues were followed, but this is foiled by the ( up to this time) total lack of publication of the decision and/or its process.
Edit P.S. I am glad I don't add a certain sage extract to my carts or I would be doubly depressed now LOL
"NICOTINE for human use when it is a Schedule 7 poison. (effective 1 January 2009)"
i.e DIRECTLY aimed at e-smoking methinks?
There was no publication of the intent to schedule as far as I am aware , and no-one to date has been able to find it , the closest I can find is in an internal Govt report in June 2008 stating possible outcomes that were awaiting "Further legal consideration " poli speak for we havent found the guy to give us the advice we want to see yet ?... This report was not made public and there was no public debate advertised that I or anyone else was aware of.
As to legislation , no-one has yet been able to locate anything apart from the Ministers press release hinting at it ... Letters have been sent direct to the minister but I am sure a response will be slow in coming.
In short I would perceive it as a well orchestrated, underhanded attempt . This thread is long , but there are many salient points of view that make it good reading , and a warning for others to proactively look at their own countries.
Currently there are forum members trying to source legislation issues and whether the correct avenues were followed, but this is foiled by the ( up to this time) total lack of publication of the decision and/or its process.
Edit P.S. I am glad I don't add a certain sage extract to my carts or I would be doubly depressed now LOL
Trumpy, if you haven't read it before, you might want to read a magazine article I wrote and had published in America's SmokeShop magazine, October issue. Grab a cold one and kick back, because it's a major magazine centerpiece (long) that I made into a PDF and posted on my "parked" Web site:
http://www.karr-tv.com/E-smoking.pdf
Feel free to use any information it contains.
http://www.karr-tv.com/E-smoking.pdf
Feel free to use any information it contains.
so if i rename an SD to a flavoured glycerol inhaler/vapourizer.. ship it with some nictone free cherry flavoured carts and liquid that would be legal in austrialia..
i am right..
trog
ps.. and pretty much everywhere else.. which just leaves a black market in nicotine content liquid to be filled..
i am right..
trog
ps.. and pretty much everywhere else.. which just leaves a black market in nicotine content liquid to be filled..
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you could probably ship it with the nicotine liquid as long as the container is marked.."not for human consumption". in fact, if i was a supplier in victoria, i would call their bluff and do just that
I noticed the Litecig Europe site were listing a JOYE 510 (aka Janty Dura I think..) which they describe as a "personal vaporizer" only yesterday. They were only selling it with zero nicotine cartridges. I'm thinking its going to be an attempt to get around bans in various countries.
Just checked and they have removed it now. I couldn't possibly speculate why....
for the record there is an SD currently impounded in iceland.. they want to "drug" test it..
for your news site DC perhaps..
they have let janty no nicotine thru in the past.. i told the guy to write to them and tell them exactly what it was and what it was for.. i havnt heard the results.. this goes back just over a week perhaps nearer two....
trog
for your news site DC perhaps..
they have let janty no nicotine thru in the past.. i told the guy to write to them and tell them exactly what it was and what it was for.. i havnt heard the results.. this goes back just over a week perhaps nearer two....
trog
Your talent precedes you TB -- it's already in my folder for "the cause "
Trog , you might have a chance with that approach , it all depends on the frontline at Customs etc and what they have been briefed on I guess... Its really ridiculous when they are impounding units with 0 nic ( although I see to remember on a manufacturers website the 0 nic actually has like a teensy bit of nic ( something in the order of 0.1 Mg ) )
Yeah , the Human Use part is both interesting and wonderfully vague ... I think the only way around it would not be labelling it "Not for human use" as that shows you have read the act , and really better have a good excuse if you get caught with it.
I think the only true way around the ban is that it be sold for whatever intent that is legal in the country ... this would take further research , but I believe it is approved for animal treatment of some kind, and was approved as a garden insecticide.???
I think no matter which way it goes here in Aus the black market is the easier option that we should not be actively promoting until other avenues have been exhausted, it will do me no good to be bashing on doors and bending ears, if I am encouraging ways around our current state of affairs???
That is not to say anyone else cant work out what works for them , i am all for personal freedoms and as long as it doesn't affect anyone negatively but the do-er if it all falls to ****e , I'm all for it, like anything in life you make a choice and live with the consequences
edit .. apparently you cany say s h i t e here lol
I actually think the best chance we have here in Aus is to try and get the Govt to approve the NZ regulation model , where hardware is available as long as carts dont have nicotine content , and the private individual can import nic mixes in private use quantities?
absolute BEST case scenario would be the above, with an APPROVED , TESTED source that is locally produced or distributed
In the spirit of responsibilty demonstration I have also posted the thread entitled "Lock out your Kids http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/5010-lock-out-your-kids.html
Trog , you might have a chance with that approach , it all depends on the frontline at Customs etc and what they have been briefed on I guess... Its really ridiculous when they are impounding units with 0 nic ( although I see to remember on a manufacturers website the 0 nic actually has like a teensy bit of nic ( something in the order of 0.1 Mg ) )
Yeah , the Human Use part is both interesting and wonderfully vague ... I think the only way around it would not be labelling it "Not for human use" as that shows you have read the act , and really better have a good excuse if you get caught with it.
I think the only true way around the ban is that it be sold for whatever intent that is legal in the country ... this would take further research , but I believe it is approved for animal treatment of some kind, and was approved as a garden insecticide.???
I think no matter which way it goes here in Aus the black market is the easier option that we should not be actively promoting until other avenues have been exhausted, it will do me no good to be bashing on doors and bending ears, if I am encouraging ways around our current state of affairs???
That is not to say anyone else cant work out what works for them , i am all for personal freedoms and as long as it doesn't affect anyone negatively but the do-er if it all falls to ****e , I'm all for it, like anything in life you make a choice and live with the consequences
edit .. apparently you cany say s h i t e here lol
I actually think the best chance we have here in Aus is to try and get the Govt to approve the NZ regulation model , where hardware is available as long as carts dont have nicotine content , and the private individual can import nic mixes in private use quantities?
absolute BEST case scenario would be the above, with an APPROVED , TESTED source that is locally produced or distributed
In the spirit of responsibilty demonstration I have also posted the thread entitled "Lock out your Kids http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/5010-lock-out-your-kids.html
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i am a firm believer trumpty in the theory that says the blacket economy is the lubricant that enables the wheels of the legit ecomony to go round ..
also that many laws are intended to be broken as opposed to 100% obeyed..
things are never as they seem
a few years back i found myself on the english dole.. no job..
okay a dude i know said i know how to earn a few quid..
okay take the then huge UK company called British Steel.. or it was back then..
take the scrap metal reclamation industry.. now all UK dudes knew that right at the bottom.. the entire industry was based on a bunch of dolite scrap men collecting the stuff and feeding it in to the scrapyards..
but my eyes were opened when i arrived at the huge great steel plant.. the heart of british industry..
the system.. BS had to save money sacked all the tradesmen.. welders fabricators the lot..
they has a small staff of what they called "engineers".. they has a contract firm.. when a blast furnace or whatver else part of the great steel factory needed fixing.. as it did from time to time..
they got on the phone to the "firm".. they said come next week we need 30 skilled men for two days to fix the queen victoria furnace.. a time window of 48 hours was normal..
the firm said okay no probs.. now where did the firm get these skilled men.. u guessed it.. the black economy dole market of redundant tradesmen that existed in the UK at the time....
everyone a criminal that without whom the great official british steel factory would have been f-cked..
they has strict rules.. never enter certain areas without an electric canary.. did they have enough canaries to go around.. did they buggery.. did we give sh-t did we buggery..
i have looked at many thing from inside during my life.. its all corrupt and above all.. nothing is as it seems.. its all bent.. it all functions under rules that are more for show than observation..
your ancestors trumpy might well have been the ones who opted for deportation to the brave new world rather than getting hanged for the sheep they had just nicked..
we didnt really hang folks for stealing sheep.. we gave them the chance to visit australia on a permanent basis.. the hanging part was to make sure they didnt say p-ss off.. he he
trog
ps.. now someone is gonna say whats an electric canary... he he
also that many laws are intended to be broken as opposed to 100% obeyed..
things are never as they seem
a few years back i found myself on the english dole.. no job..
okay a dude i know said i know how to earn a few quid..
okay take the then huge UK company called British Steel.. or it was back then..
take the scrap metal reclamation industry.. now all UK dudes knew that right at the bottom.. the entire industry was based on a bunch of dolite scrap men collecting the stuff and feeding it in to the scrapyards..
but my eyes were opened when i arrived at the huge great steel plant.. the heart of british industry..
the system.. BS had to save money sacked all the tradesmen.. welders fabricators the lot..
they has a small staff of what they called "engineers".. they has a contract firm.. when a blast furnace or whatver else part of the great steel factory needed fixing.. as it did from time to time..
they got on the phone to the "firm".. they said come next week we need 30 skilled men for two days to fix the queen victoria furnace.. a time window of 48 hours was normal..
the firm said okay no probs.. now where did the firm get these skilled men.. u guessed it.. the black economy dole market of redundant tradesmen that existed in the UK at the time....
everyone a criminal that without whom the great official british steel factory would have been f-cked..
they has strict rules.. never enter certain areas without an electric canary.. did they have enough canaries to go around.. did they buggery.. did we give sh-t did we buggery..
i have looked at many thing from inside during my life.. its all corrupt and above all.. nothing is as it seems.. its all bent.. it all functions under rules that are more for show than observation..
your ancestors trumpy might well have been the ones who opted for deportation to the brave new world rather than getting hanged for the sheep they had just nicked..
we didnt really hang folks for stealing sheep.. we gave them the chance to visit australia on a permanent basis.. the hanging part was to make sure they didnt say p-ss off.. he he
trog
ps.. now someone is gonna say whats an electric canary... he he
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Shhhhhhhh trog i am trying to appear respectable he he he
I reckon you are right on all points , just as I am right on mine LOL
I think I am just saying , there is no doubt a black market exists for everything , but when you are dealing with the buggers that created it in the first place they don't like to be reminded they use it and gave birth to it
Such is the honesty of the political beast.... I have always said if it has more than two faces, it was born next to a nuclear powerplant or is in politics .........
I reckon you are right on all points , just as I am right on mine LOL
I think I am just saying , there is no doubt a black market exists for everything , but when you are dealing with the buggers that created it in the first place they don't like to be reminded they use it and gave birth to it
Such is the honesty of the political beast.... I have always said if it has more than two faces, it was born next to a nuclear powerplant or is in politics .........
Was that post "under the influence?" First one from you that seems rambling and somewhat incoherent ...
Not advisable to "stick it" to authority on matters like this. They can deal you a "go directly to jail, do not pass go" card and it's game over for your .... only. No one else cares. You want trouble? It'll find you. And you'll find out who your friends are. Not the masses, that's for sure.
Trumpy has the right ideas.
Not advisable to "stick it" to authority on matters like this. They can deal you a "go directly to jail, do not pass go" card and it's game over for your .... only. No one else cares. You want trouble? It'll find you. And you'll find out who your friends are. Not the masses, that's for sure.
Trumpy has the right ideas.
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