AW vs. Trustfire 18350 Battery battle!

[AriM]

That would be against the rules here to have two different logins. You know better than to ask that.

Hope to see you on CPF soon.

Why would I go to CPF? I don't need to copy irrelevant graphs to repost here. I actually have top secret ways of generating my own data, you know using multi-million dollar NASA certified lab gear. Since that is what is necessary to test 3 amp loads.

Think of anything to post that might actually help someone stay safe or make a more educated decision about what battery to use in their PV?

 

[Rocketman]

Think of anything to post that might actually help someone stay safe or make a more educated decision about what battery to use in their PV?

Have you read all of my posts? I've read all of yours.

 

[AriM]

Have you read all of my posts? I've read all of yours.

I've read enough of them to know who and what you are....

So I'll ask again, anything to add to this discussion? Other than grandstanding?

 

[Rocketman]

Nope, you win.

The Rocky bows to the great Ari


These folks could use your expertise (for real)
I wouldn't have the time to do a failure analysis on these AW cells,
Maybe you could. Probably counterfeit cells.
Someone more familiar with AW could tell.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/battery-issues/273448-my-boss-aw-battery-exploded.html

Branch out into this forum and help.

 

[AriM]

Nope, you win.

The Rocky bows to the great Ari


These folks could use your expertise (for real)
I wouldn't have the time to do a failure analysis on these AW cells,
Maybe you could. Probably counterfeit cells.
Someone more familiar with AW could tell.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/battery-issues/273448-my-boss-aw-battery-exploded.html

Branch out into this forum and help.

On a serious note, there is no issue of win or lose. By mucking up the thread with our banter, the only people who lose are the people who could have gained something from the info I posted. Instead they have to sift through your trolling. That;s what really yanks my chain about your posts. There is no data posted to vet or refute my claims. I have no issue with being wrong about something. I do have an issue with you trolling me for 4 pages about the bypass shunt though (and calling my research "jumbled google search"). Really irked me man. Like I said, I am not here to sell anyone on anything. That would be the least cost effective marketing in history.

I agree with your position about me only posting graphs for the AW IMR vs. IC. I will post some more graphs in another thread, showing fair comparisons between different brands (in which everyone will clearly see negligible differences).

My claim about AW was always the quality of their protection circuitry. Not that they outshine XYZ brand in power delivery (because quite frankly they don't....except for 14500's....there the AW's knock the contenders on their butts). I posted the data on the AW's because I was trying to show that "IMR" batteries are pointless in certain scenarios, and in some ways grossly inadequate.

I really don't have the time to branch out into other threads right now. As you can see I haven't posted much on ECF (I am super busy). I only continued posting in this specific thread because some people asked specific things (mostly about AW batteries by the way). I tried my best to answer. Don't know how the topic wound up here (must be my fault for being naive).

I also did mention very early on that I happen to be an AW reseller, so people should take that for what it's worth. Am I biased towards AW? Sure. There is good reason for it though. Did I at any point call any other batteries "junk" or unusable? Nope....but I do question some brands shoddy protection circuitry (especially the interconnects in some brands).

Take it for what it's worth. I thought it was a gesture of good will, on my part, to try and put out some of my personal experiences. Still not sure about your motivation though.

Either way

 

[Rocketman]

I will agree that the graphs copied from CPF don't belong here. Continuous loads don't represent real vaping.
It looks like, from your graphs, that vaping is actually harder on a cell than running a flashlight.

I would like to see a true life comparison between different brands. I could mail you a couple of the crappy Ultrafire BigRed cells (gratis) if you could run then against the AW cells. That would show just how over rated they are.

I did notice in your graph that the AW IMR 2000mah sort of whimped out at about 1200mah with a 2 amp load (simulated vaping). What was the mah when the cell dropped to eGo volts (like about 3.4 volts RMS). Looks like less than 600mah

The AW IC 3100 did much better at 2500mah, run down to 3 volts under load. But what is the mah when it drops to eGo output?
Maybe less than 1200?

What would be a good stopping point when vaping a single cell 18650 mod? 3 volts under load seems to be a little low for good vaper production. For a 1.7 to 2.0 ohm carto, what would be the stopping point? Not much benefit vapng an 18650 below eGo levels.

Maybe even a comparison between a single AW IMR 2000mah cell and an eGo 900mah battery.

I bet either AW cell vapes the socks off an eGo

 

[AriM]

I will agree that the graphs copied from CPF don't belong here. Continuous loads don't represent real vaping.
It looks like, from your graphs, that vaping is actually harder on a cell than running a flashlight.

I would like to see a true life comparison between different brands. I could mail you a couple of the crappy Ultrafire BigRed cells (gratis) if you could run then against the AW cells. That would show just how over rated they are.

I did notice in your graph that the AW IMR 2000mah sort of whimped out at about 1200mah with a 2 amp load (simulated vaping). What was the mah when the cell dropped to eGo volts (like about 3.4 volts RMS). Looks like less than 600mah

The AW IC 3100 did much better at 2500mah, run down to 3 volts under load. But what is the mah when it drops to eGo output?
Maybe less than 1200?

What would be a good stopping point when vaping a single cell 18650 mod? 3 volts under load seems to be a little low for good vaper production. For a 1.7 to 2.0 ohm carto, what would be the stopping point? Not much benefit vapng an 18650 below eGo levels.

Maybe even a comparison between a single AW IMR 2000mah cell and an eGo 900mah battery.

I bet either AW cell vapes the socks off an eGo

In some ways yes. Certain loads do present a challenge for certain batteries. I am always of the mind frame though, that you can't wrap a blanket around anything...when it comes to electronics. You really do have to test the specific set of variables in a specific scenario...shake well and repeat. I would hope that any engineer with a reasonable amount of experience would agree. Of course there is the issue of the test rig itself changing the outcome.

I am happy to test anything that anyone wants to send me. I can't guarantee that the item will be in usable condition after testing though. Also I am open to any specific requests for testing methodology. I don't claim to have the best gear, but I will do my best to make sure the tests are fair and accurate. I also don't hide any data. My goal is not to skew information to favor any particular outcome. In fact nothing makes me happier than debunking my own current set of knowledge (that let's me know I am still being a scientist).

I can re-generate the graphs from AW IMR vs. IC to show all parameters of the cycle (or just send you the CSV data from the cycles). If there is anything specific you would like to see, I can modify the fields in the graphs. Any good test should be designed by more than one head.

The question about a good stopping point is really impossible for me to answer....I suppose it's based on personal preference and also the specific rig (juice, PV, battery, atty etc...). I would agree that for a 1.7-2 omh carto (single coil) 3v is a good stopping point. I personally like to stay around 8-10 watts. I still vote the Panasonic 3100mah NNP cell as the cream of the PV crop (not always, but for 306's it's awesome).

The issue with testing ego batteries, is that each lot number from each "manufacturer" seems to be wildly different. That is a whole other testing process, to weed out an "acceptable" example of an ego, to use for the IMR 2000 vs ego 900 battle.

Surprisingly I really like the vape from the mini SD and the "elips"....

P.S. My guess is that in an Apples to Apples test of various "brands" of IMR cells....we will discover that they are all virtually identical (except for the color of shrink wrap). Since none employ protection circuitry, there isn't much room for drift in the numbers....other than lot numbers and cell selection. The same goes for LiFEpo4 cells....I did the shootout between tenergy and aw a while back, and found virtually no difference, at least not one that would justify someone picking one over the other. I personally pick the AW's because I like the pretty blue wrapper.....

 

[Rocketman]

No way a 900mah eGo is going to vape like a single cell 18650 mod. I understand the regulated "Magic Chip" in the eGo makes for a level vape, but any good cell is going to run circles around an eGo.
The output at less than half charge, into a 1.6 ohm carto, actually vaped (a 6 second vape about every 10 seconds) shows an RMS voltage in the order of 3.4 volts (close, plus or minus).

Ari,
I've got some unused Ultrafire BigRed 3000 (Ha) cells that have no planned use.
I'll do some quick testing, maybe in the next few days, and pass them on to you.
The "BigRed" is almost the bottom of the line (except for the Ultrafire 3600, and 4000) in protected Li-ion cells. Since you have access to the AW cells (better cells) a test using the same setup and conditions to eliminate test to test variables would be best.
I wouldn't expect the cells back, test em till they die
You could of course send me some new (gratis) AW cells and I do the testing
Just Kidding.
I'll get back to you when I have time.

I also like to vape at about 8 or 9 watts. The eGo won't do it. And with a single cell mod (unboosted) it takes a 1.5 ohm carto to get that level. (or a pair of 2 ohm cartos )

I marked up one of your graphs to show what I was talking about. Vaping to 3.4 volts (eGo level) vs. vaping all the way to 3.0 volts. It seems an IMR 18650 should do better.

 

[AriM]

No way a 900mah eGo is going to vape like a single cell 18650 mod. I understand the regulated "Magic Chip" in the eGo makes for a level vape, but any good cell is going to run circles around an eGo.
The output at less than half charge, into a 1.6 ohm carto, actually vaped (a 6 second vape about every 10 seconds) shows an RMS voltage in the order of 3.4 volts (close, plus or minus).

Ari,
I've got some unused Ultrafire BigRed 3000 (Ha) cells that have no planned use.
I'll do some quick testing, maybe in the next few days, and pass them on to you.
The "BigRed" is almost the bottom of the line (except for the Ultrafire 3600, and 4000) in protected Li-ion cells. Since you have access to the AW cells (better cells) a test using the same setup and conditions to eliminate test to test variables would be best.
I wouldn't expect the cells back, test em till they die
You could of course send me some new (gratis) AW cells and I do the testing
Just Kidding.
I'll get back to you when I have time.

I also like to vape at about 8 or 9 watts. The eGo won't do it. And with a single cell mod (unboosted) it takes a 1.5 ohm carto to get that level. (or a pair of 2 ohm cartos )

I marked up one of your graphs to show what I was talking about. Vaping to 3.4 volts (eGo level) vs. vaping all the way to 3.0 volts. It seems an IMR 18650 should do better.

I have some ego style batteries here that don't use the chopper circuit, they just use a mosfet in parallel for the switch. Other than that they are the straight battery. Not like RIVA/joye ego's that use the PWM to control MCU temp/current. LOL that scope plot looks all too familiar. Either way you are correct, there is no way that a "900mah" (another laughable spec) "ego" is going to hold a candle to an 18650 (even the lowest tier cell).

I would be happy to test the "bigreds". Send me the specs of the test you are running, and I will do my best to duplicate it...my LeCroy can do split screen, so we can see the drop at the cell and at the load (after the switch). Out of curiosity what is the sample rate of your scope? I can only pull about 1/gs split between each trace. Maybe one of these days I will break down and buy that new Agilent scope I have had my eye on.

I would be happy to send you the exact AW's I run the test with, so you can confirm my results. Do you have a way of doing discharge graphs under load? If not, I highly recommend Hyperion ios720 series chargers. They have great drivers for interfacing with Win7 (64). The interface program will export CSV data to excel, or has a built in graphing feature. Well worth the $700 for charger and DC PSU to run it.

I agree the time to reach 3.4 volts on the IMR was truly pathetic. One thing to keep in mind though, the time between load and dwell in the graph is roughly 50 seconds or more. That is a bit long for a 100% accurate simulation of a PV hit. The time I allowed for recovery on each cycle was roughly 10 seconds.

Also did you notice the strange random drop outs in two of the cycles? Weird right? I can only attribute that to some kind of line noise (although the cells never recover from the drop). I used 12ga. leads (roughly 2 feet) with banana's for the charger side termination, and rare earth magnets to contact the cell on the other end. Really puzzled about those random dropouts, because no other cells I have tested have done that.

See picture of the event below.....

P.S. I always do a peak to peak measurement on my DSO and subtract the ripple from the nominal voltage. It seems to be a bit more accurate than relying on the RMS reading in my scope.

 

[AriM]

On another note, glad we aren't bickering anymore, and getting down to some real science.....

 

[Rocketman]

You up to doing the Ultrafire Vs AW test?
Probably worth a new thread.
I just don't have the time right now.
and you have better equipment than I have at the house.

I have 2 new Ultrafire cells, one with a cut wrapper (for photographic purposes).

I think that would be a good test because the BigRed cell is sold by many vendors and people end up buying them because they are cheap. Showing that the 3000mah is a big lie, and that performance is substandard would be a service to the vaping community. Maybe OK for 2 amp vaping, but surely not for a boosted mod.

I've got other brands, but want to keep those. The 2 Ultrafires go to science

BTW, the blip in loaded output was possibly a chemistry blip.


I think the 2 amp test you did would be fine to compare the cells. Just same test setup, even simultaneous. Heck even a 50% switching cycle 10 seconds on 10 seconds off would come closer to vaping than running a flashlight. Looks like the Li-on cells go through most of the voltage recovery in just a few seconds.
PM an address (even a third party if you want) and I'll check out these cells and post them to you. I'm pretty sure they are good, just want to make sure first.

 

[AriM]

You up to doing the Ultrafire Vs AW test?
Probably worth a new thread.
I just don't have the time right now.
and you have better equipment than I have at the house.

I have 2 new Ultrafire cells, one with a cut wrapper (for photographic purposes).

I think that would be a good test because the BigRed cell is sold by many vendors and people end up buying them because they are cheap. Showing that the 3000mah is a big lie, and that performance is substandard would be a service to the vaping community. Maybe OK for 2 amp vaping, but surely not for a boosted mod.

I've got other brands, but want to keep those. The 2 Ultrafires go to science

BTW, the blip in loaded output was possibly a chemistry blip.

I am up for doing the test....my only request would be that we design the test together so that there is no question about that later.

I can include a few other cells in the test. I will do my best to match exact chemistry and "capacity". Battle of the button tops.....

I would have to say that the blip is either random noise (error), or temporary chemistry runaway (which is kind of scary). Your guess is as good as mine on that one.

I guess the best way to set the current draw for the test, would be to look at the lowest rating between the cells and use that as the fixed current. So if the AW is claiming 2200, and the UltraFire is claiming 3000, and the SmokTech (yeah I think that should go into the mix as well) is 2000....we set the current draw at 2 amps. If none of the cells get above 60degC we can up the draw to 5 amps? Sound good?

 

[Rocketman]

That's what the flashlight guys do.
The lower rated/grade cells really shouldn't be run over 2 amps.
Kids will see this and think it's OK to do, lol.

The BigRed has a protection board that should trip at a little over 2.5 amps.
I suggest this be tailored to real life applications.
Boosted mods, or extreme Low Resistance vaping should only be done with High Quality cells.

Most folks seem to have gravitated to atties/cartos in the 1.5 to 2.0 ohm range.
2amps, maybe 2.5 amps would be the most informative for vapers.
A trip test would confirm that.

The High Grade cells could be compared for the extreme vaping crowd, but for the
"Light Beer Vapers" like myself, straight through, 3.7 volt, 2 amps would be fine with me.

 

[Rocketman]

I found a new Trustfire.

One of the Ultrafires had been used and isn't new.

This is what I will send.

Sorry about being so cheap

 

[AriM]

That's what the flashlight guys do.
The lower rated/grade cells really shouldn't be run over 2 amps.
Kids will see this and think it's OK to do, lol.

The BigRed has a protection board that should trip at a little over 2.5 amps.
I suggest this be tailored to real life applications.
Boosted mods, or extreme Low Resistance vaping should only be done with High Quality cells.

Most folks seem to have gravitated to atties/cartos in the 1.5 to 2.0 ohm range.
2amps, maybe 2.5 amps would be the most informative for vapers.
A trip test would confirm that.

The High Grade cells could be compared for the extreme vaping crowd, but for the
"Light Beer Vapers" like myself, straight through, 3.7 volt, 2 amps would be fine with me.

Sounds good to me. I have a fire box for the cells, so I don't mind taking them to the point of exploding. Sacrificing a set of test leads is worth it to me, but we'll start at 2 amps. Then i will confirm cutoff for each cell after that.

I am curious to draw 5 amps from each one though, and see if it destroys the protection PCB/wiring. I think that is pretty darn important as well. At some point even the best protection will fail, but it would be nice to simulate a dead short on a broken carto....I am sure we have all gotten mismarked/defective cartos. I had one marked as 3.2ohm, wind up being 1.7.....it destroyed the cells I attempted to use it on (unprotected LiFe 2-cell pack).

 

[AriM]

I found a new Trustfire.

One of the Ultrafires had been used and isn't new.

This is what I will send.

Sorry about being so cheap

Send what you've got. I will throw these into the mix as well... (we'll save the top tier cells for another test)

 

[Rocketman]

Don't go blowing no fingers off.

 

[AriM]

Oh also I will cycle each cell 4 times, to condition them for the actual test. Just to be sure they have "settled in"....

 

[AriM]

Don't go blowing no fingers off.

It's ok....I have some extras

 

[Rocketman]

Looks like the cells will be fairly well matched.
2200 to 2400 labeled (except the 3000mah lie).