AW vs. Trustfire 18350 Battery battle!

[rolygate]

I have a literal compendium of data about stacking various types of cells, and using multi cell packs. I am happy to give out any information that is relevant.

Perhaps we could start with a list of suitable makes/models for series use where the length = ~650, and then people can start arguing pros or cons, or which gets the top position?

ECF has no dog in this fight. We would just like to be able to tell members who specifically seek that information what the considered answer is, as we have done with single-cell use.

 

[Hoosier]

That is certainly a adequate charger. Can you describe a bit more on the consistency issues you have had with protected cells...make models, peak voltages....perceived cut off times (unless you have charge/discharge graphs....which would be awesome)...

No good quantitative data. Peak would vary between 4.28-4.04 off the cheap charger. Usually 4.19 everytime off the Pila. I cannot remember everything exactly, but the first batteries had the TF flame wrapper and one of the pair dropped to about half the vape time as the other in 3-4 weeks. Ultrafires didn't last any longer before one of them wouldn't last. (My "measurement" is lasting through a workday approx 10 hours. Since actual vape time varies with each day and each hour of those days, it is just a rough estimating tool.) Can't remember what the purple ones were called, but they did do a bit better than the *fires. These were used in unregulated mods, a single 18650 with low resistance atomizers 1.5-1.9 Ohms.

I used each battery until vapor production dropped and then swapped. The discharged batteries usually measures somewhere in the 3.2-3.4 volts range. I never understood why one of the pair would always go well before the other. When I went from TF to UF's, I set the TF that was still OK aside and when the first of the UF's went, I used a TF and an UF as a pair.

By the time I went to a regulated mod with voltage boost circuit, I had made the switch over to the IMR's.

 

[AriM]

Perhaps we could start with a list of suitable makes/models for series use where the length = ~650, and then people can start arguing pros or cons, or which gets the top position?

ECF has no dog in this fight. We would just like to be able to tell members who specifically seek that information what the considered answer is, as we have done with single-cell use.

I would be willing to donate my time to creating a sub-forum/sticky/interactive guide to do this. I have this in the works on my ecommerce site. So when a customer picks a specific device, they get a list of battery options and associated accessories for those voltages.

I think rather than have a topic, where data can be argued...it might be best to just post the facts. Otherwise I fear there will be a never ending battle of unqualified opinions. I would be willing to generate charge/discharge graphs and Oscillograms to back up anything posted. I am willing to spend a great deal of time doing this, as it is a professional/personal mission of mine. Mostly I don't care about brands or arguments about "better", I care most about safety. Also real data, not "xyz is better because I think it is".

I am even willing to invest in a more thorough testing station, if people are willing to send in engineering samples for qualification. I can't source every battery I would like to test (I just don't have the time), but I would be willing to test ANY battery that is sent to me. My only requirement would be that it is unused and in factory condition...and it's origins are verified. I also can't send the cells back to the sender, as I will test them to the point of being un-usable/un-safe.

 

[AriM]

No good quantitative data. Peak would vary between 4.28-4.04 off the cheap charger. Usually 4.19 everytime off the Pila. I cannot remember everything exactly, but the first batteries had the TF flame wrapper and one of the pair dropped to about half the vape time as the other in 3-4 weeks. Ultrafires didn't last any longer before one of them wouldn't last. (My "measurement" is lasting through a workday approx 10 hours. Since actual vape time varies with each day and each hour of those days, it is just a rough estimating tool.) Can't remember what the purple ones were called, but they did do a bit better than the *fires. These were used in unregulated mods, a single 18650 with low resistance atomizers 1.5-1.9 Ohms.

I used each battery until vapor production dropped and then swapped. The discharged batteries usually measures somewhere in the 3.2-3.4 volts range. I never understood why one of the pair would always go well before the other. When I went from TF to UF's, I set the TF that was still OK aside and when the first of the UF's went, I used a TF and an UF as a pair.

By the time I went to a regulated mod with voltage boost circuit, I had made the switch over to the IMR's.

That all sounds very consistent with my testing experiences. The UF/TF's simply can't take the current draw. The cells aren't the issue...it's the shoddy protection circuitry/interconnects. This shouldn't be taken as a blanket statement, as there are quite a few makes/models out there...and of course there is variation from lot to lot.

Also, please be very careful when mixing makes/models of cells in a multicell config. It can be EXTREMELY dangerous!!! Especially if you have a failing cell mixed in with a new one, in series. This is why I am a stickler for quality protection. The results of dead shorting a defective Lithium-Ion cell can be catastrophic. Especially close to your face.

 

[buGG]

Perhaps we could start with a list of suitable makes/models for series use where the length = ~650, and then people can start arguing pros or cons, or which gets the top position?

ECF has no dog in this fight. We would just like to be able to tell members who specifically seek that information what the considered answer is, as we have done with single-cell use.

Roly, are you asking for some sort of chart or graph that lists every possible 33-35mm cell out there and its performance or competence with different atomizer load configurations, i.e. where it's use is acceptable, where it's not, where it gets tricky, etc., or might it be more beneficial to look at readily available cells with manufacturer provided specifications and then test/ list the two or three that are qualified regardless of the load?

And by way of testing, how many cells from a given source and how many tests on that make and type are sufficient from a reliability/repeatability standpoint, i.e. the point ECF stands behind it?

 

[AriM]

Roly, are you asking for some sort of chart or graph that lists every possible 33-35mm cell out there and its performance or competence with different atomizer load configurations, i.e. where it's use is acceptable, where it's not, where it gets tricky, etc., or might it be more beneficial to look at readily available cells with manufacturer provided specifications and then test/ list the two or three that are qualified regardless of the load?

And by way of testing, how many cells from a given source and how many tests on that make and type are sufficient from a reliability/repeatability standpoint, i.e. the point ECF stands behind it?

IMO it should be no less than 3 cells from two separate lots.....and all manufacturer specs should only be included for a comparison to real world tests....

Also I have the ability to test multicell configurations (with split graphs on each cell in the pack). That way we can see the pack performance, as well as the individual cell....I would recommend we stay away from any packs larger than 2 cells, as that could be getting into dangerous territory....

P.S. I know the question wasn't directed to me, but this is my opinion on the matter

P.P.s there should also be a proper legal disclaimer, releasing liability from all parties involved with these tests.

 

[rolygate]

I opened a thread for this discussion please:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-battery-testing-choices-series-circuits.html

 

[buGG]

Nevermind. I hope this thread can get back on track.

 

[WillyB]

... I think that would be a good test because the BigRed cell is sold by many vendors and people end up buying them because they are cheap. Showing that the 3000mah is a big lie, and that performance is substandard would be a service to the vaping community. Maybe OK for 2 amp vaping, but surely not for a boosted mod.

Hey Rocket, ya gonna love luv this China site.

COPY Ultrafire BRC 18650 3000mAh 3.7v Protection Lithium Battery_Battery_Battery&Charger_Electronics Wholesale online

COPY Ultrafire BRC 18650 3000mAh 3.7v Protection Lithium Battery_Battery_Battery&Charger_Electronics Wholesale online

And according to them the real deal.

1 piece of Ultrafire BRC 18650 3000mAh 3.7v Protection Lithium Battery_Battery_Battery&Charger_Electronics Wholesale online

 

[Rocketman]

Looks like "COPY" is the result of a Google Translator

Someone ought to contact them and tell them "FAKE" is a better English word to use.

 

[Hoosier]

That all sounds very consistent with my testing experiences. The UF/TF's simply can't take the current draw. The cells aren't the issue...it's the shoddy protection circuitry/interconnects. This shouldn't be taken as a blanket statement, as there are quite a few makes/models out there...and of course there is variation from lot to lot.

Yep, that's what I thought after some research, the protection circuit was clipping my current and it just wasn't designed to handle that much current in the first place. (Which is stupid as the protection circuitry should be designed to handle more than the controlled output.)

I've only stacked smaller LiFEpo's, but I did not use that mod for long anyway, so didn't get close to wearing on the batteries. The 18650's were always in single cell mods.

Most of the battery tests I have seen are 0.5 or 1.0 amp at continuous draws and those help some, but do not come close enough to actual vaping use to give me a good understanding of what is happening. That is why I look forward to the line of thought going on in this thread now...

 

[zoiDman]

Bump becuase there is a Lot of Good Info in this thread.