AW vs. Trustfire 18350 Battery battle!

[Semiretired]

Okay, ya'll got me. I was getting ready to order some 18650 batts and now I will wait for the test results - I was going to buy the AW 18650 2900mAH protected 3.7v - LiNiCoO2 NNP cells, but you got my curiosity peeked.

Unless you of course tell me that these are fantastic batts to vape with?

I am currently vaping straight 3.7v, but may vary into VV later on and I want to make sure what I buy now will work across the board... Do not want 6 different kinds of batts lying around over the long run...

 

[AriM]

Okay, ya'll got me. I was getting ready to order some 18650 batts and now I will wait for the test results - I was going to buy the AW 18650 2900mAH protected 3.7v - LiNiCoO2 NNP cells, but you got my curiosity peeked.

Unless you of course tell me that these are fantastic batts to vape with?

I am currently vaping straight 3.7v, but may vary into VV later on and I want to make sure what I buy now will work across the board... Do not want 6 different kinds of batts lying around over the long run...

there are also the 3100 NNP's.

you will wind up with lots of batteries either way.....also they don't last forever....the harder you tax them, the fewer cycles they will give you....

what works for one guy isn't right for everyone, so maybe get what you think will be best for you....whatever data winds up being presented, can't possibly take into account your personal vaping habits....it's trial and error.....also every juice likes something slightly different (IMO)

 

[Semiretired]

Thanks for the feedback...

 

[Hoosier]

Not to throw anyone off track here, but I am really looking forward to the side by side testing of these cells. While I hit my batteries harder than 2 amps, the data should be helpful nonetheless. The life cycle length I get for my $ is more important to me than the price and my vaping style is hard on batteries.

The current mix of batteries posted already seem like a good cross section to me also.

 

[AriM]

Not to throw anyone off track here, but I am really looking forward to the side by side testing of these cells. While I hit my batteries harder than 2 amps, the data should be helpful nonetheless. The life cycle length I get for my $ is more important to me than the price and my vaping style is hard on batteries.

The current mix of batteries posted already seem like a good cross section to me also.

LiFEpo4's will give you the longest life cycle of any lithium chemistry. They will also take unholy levels of abuse. They, unfortunantly, don't have the greatest energy density. I like to run them stacked (rcr123) with a 3.2 ohm carto. They are also available in 18650/26550 sizes. I even have some here with a 50amp d/c rating!! I haven't been brave enough to test that rating though.

 

[Hoosier]

I have not seen LiFEpo's in an 18650 size yet. I estimate that I hit 4 amps on a draw. (Based on calculations since I have no good equipment at home and have not had access to such since my last job before I started vaping.) The IMR chemistry is giving me good life cycle right now. The energy density seems to fit pretty well with my vaping too.

What little hobby electronics I do is fairly rudimentry for haunted house effects, so a few cheap meters and a couple nice power supplies keeps me going.

I don't even want to think about buying cheap wire to handle 50 amps let alone wire that would be clean.

 

[AriM]

I have not seen LiFEpo's in an 18650 size yet. I estimate that I hit 4 amps on a draw. (Based on calculations since I have no good equipment at home and have not had access to such since my last job before I started vaping.) The IMR chemistry is giving me good life cycle right now. The energy density seems to fit pretty well with my vaping too.

What little hobby electronics I do is fairly rudimentry for haunted house effects, so a few cheap meters and a couple nice power supplies keeps me going.

I don't even want to think about buying cheap wire to handle 50 amps let alone wire that would be clean.

By "life cycle", do you mean the time between charges, or the amount of charge/discharge cycles the battery will take before reaching less than optimum levels?

 

[Hoosier]

The life cycle is the amount of time before a charge lasts me a quarter of the time it did new. At that point it is useless to me and its life cycle is at an end. (Not the technical def, but this is how I look at it.) I have around 9 months on a pair of IMR 18650's without an noticable change in the vape time per charge.

Energy density is how long it lasts for its size.

 

[cuttinloose]

BUMP..for a great thread..It's a little over my head, but I'm trying to understand. It's sad that MEN were made with such EGO'S & WOMEN bad bad HORMONES. Neither we asked for.......Glad to see it turned around and you guys doing these tests!!!

 

[rolygate]

If anyone is interested, I would like to try and organise the following if possible:

1. Some form of test to show if an AW red cell (IMR 18650) really is an AW - without dissecting it. Maybe impossible, but worth considering.

2. A list of the best cells to use for in-series use, in the RC123 / 16340 size. We need to give practical advice about stacking batteries.


1: A big worry at the moment is the fact that half the AW batteries out there are probably counterfeit. Not only that, they could be cheap reject Li-ion cells and not even Li-Mn. When we get a report that "My AW battery melted" then we really don't know if it was an AW or not. Possibly not. I think in the end there will be 10 times more fakes out there than the real thing, and that is a worry.
example: you can buy AW cells from many sites on Alibaba. It doesn't sound likely to me that they will all be genuine (or that any are genuine, come to that).
example: a mod was recently sold by the thousand 'with AW red batteries'. It turned out they were cheap counterfeits, and Li-ion not Li-Mn. People think they have reasonably safe batteries but in fact they have counterfeits, and possibly dangerous counterfeits at that.

2: We should be able to tell people what cells to stack, as we do with what single cells to use. In the end that comes down to brands and models because no other info is of much use. It seems that two protected Li-ion cells may be too long physically for the application (stacking in a metal tube mod) but I don't know since I don't own any; plus the higher voltage might trip the PCB. If so, that seems to leave Li-Mn and Li-FePo4 cells, and ideally we should be able to tell people which make & model are a good idea.


Would appreciate some input.

 

[markfm]

On 16340, maybe check with Buzzkill. He did a lot of testing last summer when the BP came out.

 

[TomCatt]

Excellent idea Roly

 

[AriM]

The life cycle is the amount of time before a charge lasts me a quarter of the time it did new. At that point it is useless to me and its life cycle is at an end. (Not the technical def, but this is how I look at it.) I have around 9 months on a pair of IMR 18650's without an noticable change in the vape time per charge.

Energy density is how long it lasts for its size.

Best life cycle (as you describe it), is without a doubt LiFe chemistry. The Lithium Manganese (IMR) is second to that, but above traditional "Li-Ion" chemistry (which by the way is grossly under described).

I think for your needs (4amps draw) you have made the right choice, but do have a look at the 3100mah NNP cells. They are "high drain", with longer life cycles and high energy density. They really hit the mark for me (but I prefer to run 2 cell packs anyhow, so in that case it's not relevant).

Have you had any consistency issues with your batteries?

 

[Hoosier]

Have you had any consistency issues with your batteries?

Not with the IMR's. The various protected batteries I have disposed of were never consistant even when the pairs were purchased from the same source at the same time.

 

[AriM]

If anyone is interested, I would like to try and organise the following if possible:

1. Some form of test to show if an AW red cell (IMR 18650) really is an AW - without dissecting it. Maybe impossible, but worth considering.

2. A list of the best cells to use for in-series use, in the RC123 / 16340 size. We need to give practical advice about stacking batteries.


1: A big worry at the moment is the fact that half the AW batteries out there are probably counterfeit. Not only that, they could be cheap reject Li-ion cells and not even Li-Mn. When we get a report that "My AW battery melted" then we really don't know if it was an AW or not. Possibly not. I think in the end there will be 10 times more fakes out there than the real thing, and that is a worry.
example: you can buy AW cells from many sites on Alibaba. It doesn't sound likely to me that they will all be genuine (or that any are genuine, come to that).
example: a mod was recently sold by the thousand 'with AW red batteries'. It turned out they were cheap counterfeits, and Li-ion not Li-Mn. People think they have reasonably safe batteries but in fact they have counterfeits, and possibly dangerous counterfeits at that.

2: We should be able to tell people what cells to stack, as we do with what single cells to use. In the end that comes down to brands and models because no other info is of much use. It seems that two protected Li-ion cells may be too long physically for the application (stacking in a metal tube mod) but I don't know since I don't own any; plus the higher voltage might trip the PCB. If so, that seems to leave Li-Mn and Li-FePo4 cells, and ideally we should be able to tell people which make & model are a good idea.


Would appreciate some input.

I would be glad to help in such a test (although I have already conducted the tests on stacking).

There are NO genuine AW cells available on Alibaba (to my knowledge). Andrew only sells direct, and does not sell to China. He wouldn't even ship to one of my reps in mainland China. He takes the issue of counterfeits VERY seriously (from the conversations I have had with him).

I have a literal compendium of data about stacking various types of cells, and using multi cell packs. I am happy to give out any information that is relevant.

 

[AriM]

Not with the IMR's. The various protected batteries I have disposed of were never consistant even when the pairs were purchased from the same source at the same time.

This may have to do with the charger, not so much the cells. Chargers is a whole other topic though......

I have had serious consistency issues with peak voltages on cheaper chargers, but my "lab" charger tells me that most of the protected cells I deal with, are VERY consistent....

Curious to know more about how you charge/discharge, and what make and models of chargers you have used...

 

[Hoosier]

I use a Pila IBC charger for the last 18+ months.

Had a crappy one-size-fits-all before that, but got rid of it as quickly as I could. Did a horrible job just based off of voltage measurements of cells coming off.

 

[AriM]

I use a Pila IBC charger for the last 18+ months.

Had a crappy one-size-fits-all before that, but got rid of it as quickly as I could. Did a horrible job just based off of voltage measurements of cells coming off.

That is certainly a adequate charger. Can you describe a bit more on the consistency issues you have had with protected cells...make models, peak voltages....perceived cut off times (unless you have charge/discharge graphs....which would be awesome).

I am curious, because I have heard this complaint from quite a few people, but have never had such issues myself. I am wondering if it's user based error...or if it is in fact battery related....

The issues I have had with consistency have mostly been with unprotected cells in unregulated mods. I traced these issues back to design issues with various mods, not so much the cells. Also issues with overdischarge, and lack of conditioning of the cells.

IMO it is very important to condition your cells before using, and periodically during their useful life. Proper conditioning (IMO) is 4, consistent, charge/discharge cycles. This is not so easy to accomplish in non-programmable chargers.

 

[CDnerds]

All my mods that take 18650 seem to work better with AW IMR batteries. A fully charged trustfire vs a fully charged AW IMR on my mods the IMR wins hands down. I have used a lot of different 18650s and it always comes back to AW IMR. My other mods that take 14500 batteries i really don't notice a difference, but I still like IMR better for the chemistry.

 

[AriM]

All my mods that take 18650 seem to work better with AW IMR batteries. A fully charged trustfire vs a fully charged AW IMR on my mods the IMR wins hands down. I have used a lot of different 18650s and it always comes back to AW IMR. My other mods that take 14500 batteries i really don't notice a difference, but I still like IMR better for the chemistry.

Hi Joe,

Could you please describe in more detail how they are "better". Longer life? Higher peak voltages? Have you tried AW IC vs IMR?

Thanks

P.S. On a regulated mod you shouldn't be able to tell any difference, what so ever (unless the regulation is out of whack). I'm with you on that one. Unless the cells can't provide the current the regulator is asking for (in which case the regulator should lock out)