You're entitled to your opinion, though I think you're confusing vigilant with militant and avoiding maxx's clear statement that would entice violence.
I also have to clarify to you, Jeff, I think it can only be ignorance or hypocritical and why? To go 'off the deep end'? No. To resort to name calling as Maxx did vs state his sentiment more clearly instead of attacking me? No. To be uh....like some people think at a 'lack'? Hardly. I don't believe anyone can call 'rules' on other people (even if it's accurate), be on ecf with an entire section for CASAA and other orgs, go against how they (CASAA)has been doing things (and winning) and, convince anyone of anything. "We" have to build on and with CASAA or people like maxx and others will feel afraid and helpless and not use their best assessment of a given situation.
People, I think, are generally good but, when a person starts to go against that concept without stating their disagreement and directing it to agencies in place so we're all behind CASAA, the end result is a lesser result that breaks an unspoken 'rule' of civility - exactly what, if even provable, is at the forefront of maxx's
sense of what is happening against e-cigs by an imaginary gathering 'mob'(without his intervention? - like spare me the garbage), mentioned in an article that included survey of .....? It's not like those against e-cigs know enough about the vaper-world or vapers and not like we know, with such certainty to miss several steps in there and first question "Are those who disagree with e-cigs, so influential they can change Federal Law? How was the survey of roughly 2,000 participants conducted? Were participants paid? Did they have fears or facts to work with? Are they smokers, non-smokers, parents, teens, oncologists/patients, lawyers, science professors/students doing a thesis (those things take years with all expense paid living so
it matters to know more before going 'off the deep end' with the "take 'em out" bs we feel is done to us/"OMG! They're becoming a 'mob'!" complete crap.
Who is 'we' if 'we' don't acknowledge that there could be several factors that make such surveys invalid under the law? Instead, let's just make some random people we don't know afraid, without doing the right thing
first? Let's just all diss the efforts of ecf to set up a forum that specifically addresses rational concerns and push the panic button? It's wrong first and foremost and for vapers who's product of choice is different from
tobacco, maxx's priority is basing his views about 'we' need(?)[to do] on his opinion of the disaster to health caused by not doing the same as he says, over
tobacco. In essence, anyone with a clear mind is going to read that as he thinks e-cigs are a health threat - it's irrelevant whether or not he meant to. The fact is the two products cannot compared. That is beside the priority being the law and civility.
I don't think it's all about 'simply' fighting bad or no science. To really accomplish something that makes the front page and reaches as many people as maxx understandably wants to, takes more effort than quite possibly, blaming people who are justifiably concerned, if given the wrong information &/or implications, thinking e-cigs are like tobacco products and a threat to them personally or their families. It takes trying to understand how these nonsensical things start and making the public aware of how easily duped they can be so the win is big and swift and wakes up the decency of political agencies who are responsible for using their legal resources to 'take out'/bring justice out IF corruption has occurred. For all we know, people against e-cigs the media is referring to, are people
as much against analogs as we are and surveyed by people also against analogs these other radical anti-freedom groups are playing up - all of them have no information to the wrong information. When, except in your imaginary world, have vapers given these people we don't know, a fair chance to learn what vaping is? If they knew, do you think they'd support the radical fringe groups you're all willing to panic about?
They too, have a right to protest but, by giving the people these surveys they're riding on the coattails of, the correct information, their protest is has zero social influence - that is if you guys really want to stop the nonsense or just scare, quite likely, the wrong people and deny there's anything that's not violent about it. You'd want the same fair chance if the science were there.
To give the media a real story before taking names and addresses and threatening anyone's sense of safety (again, think karma), and, again this merely 'off the deep end' opinion, we owe it to ourselves to use the Freedom of Information Act to request more information so when other/newer products come out we also don't continue to be discriminated against. To get there doesn't require making anyone feel unsafe unless they are holding a gun to your head. It requires taking the gun away from theirs. Provoking violence is violence. Confronting a provocation, when real, is vigilance, not militant. It's the difference between speaking with people or threatening them, in any way.
There were a ton of commercials a while ago about smokers being 'stupid' because of smoking, along with those about smokers lighting up 'sneakily' at work being met by the rath of fellow co-workers - all in the name of trying to make smokers aware of a deadly addiction to analogs. Who's really ignorant? Smokers who were hacking up half their insides like they thought analogs are health food or well-intentioned people who don't understand insulting people didn't make people quit or didn't make minors with too little supervision immune from those who don't care about carding (and didn't end up caring more because of those insult-ads, either)
Whose responsibility is it to pick up a phone and call the police when you see a minor uncarded or do we just support all clerks being lumped into the 'enemy' category and 'take 'em all out'? That is the hysteria of the anti-tobacco crowd based in trying to enforce rules that minors want to break because they're minors. Do we make them feel unsafe or explain the oh-so scientific fact that they are blaming the very people whose products are expensive enough to keep both minors and many adults away from becoming addicted to them? Do we make the effort to explain how hard it can be to refill these things for adults and how unlikely it is that 12 year old's can or would choose this for 'recreation'/rebellion over a pack of analogs and compromise over the terms of sales perhaps being stricter (still no guarantee some idiot preying on kids won't lure kids into worse things by buying them for minors) and perhaps actually catch the social f'up's on-line or do we make an already scared segment of society worse off because tobacco really has made us all ignoramuses cos that is what is behind all of this, at a societal level. All the junk science just covers the fact that kids are preyed on by things they shouldn't be (and logically wouldn't be) as interested in as tobacco products - not on their own, anyway.
The brain is a muscle - it would be nice to exercise it in unison by finding a common denominator rather than standing out any more than we already do - for all the right reasons. It's what real drug abusers can't do and if we don't, we will continue to be blamed as vapers for all the ills of society and others will be taking our names, addresses and phone numbers.
Then we would complain about militant meaning something it shouldn't have meant in the first place.
Again, it's only my meager opinion because I'm an 'idiot' who should 'get off-line' for going 'off the deep end' for believing in a bigger dream being a possible outcome in a nation built on dreams?
Otherwise, you can all have your vaping world while I'm cutting my nic to zero and looking for people who really understand freedom isn't free and militant(if you will, viligance) takes the higher ground assertively but, not to senselessly induce fear - it's passive if it's not used to help more than ourselves and will result in 'karmatic violence' and for what? So
nothing really improves?
We are all people before we became smokers or vapers and the only thing that needs to be taken down a notch is the baseless, uninformed threat of threatening people in the same breath as marginalizing them with no proof, as 'THE enemy'. Or, 'we' become the enemy and pay a price for the real idiocy of a topic orgs are there for a reason.
In short, I could not more thoroughly disagree with you.
...there is too much we're missing to make the conclusion maxx made in the context he made it when we have CASAA to speak for us and really stop the fear of nic for adults.
Judge: FDA Cannot Regulate Electronic Cigarettes - ABC News
anything less is both cowardly and lazy. Verbal violence is a form of violence that has no place in a product discussion used by of age, consenting adults.
You guys are talking about escalating that by thinking like you did the first time you picked up an analog without thinking - not me. You guys are the hypocrites to have done what we were all led to believe was 'glamorous' then saying it could be about 'advertising', as if there's something wrong with glamor - not me. And, you guys are threatening
myyyyyyy right to freely vape a safer (& better tasting product) by passing the entire buck to journalists and refusing to move this topic over to CASAA's forum. By freely, I mean without attacking me while you sit on your high horses, tossing insults as intelligence and call intimidating people's sense of safety
in any way, an okay way to have your voice heard after JTC Jr. did the opposite and was responded to. You can't confront what you don't know and you can't say you know without proof. maxx had a knee jerk reaction. Everyone does here and there. Keep supporting it instead of understanding what is really behind all of it and enjoy the taxation being enough to cover-up the truth for generations because of your insults now and a power trip to threaten anyone on assumption. I'm not doing that and by not doing that you define this as off the deep-end? lol! I'm rollerblading. You guys are treading 1 ft of water, unaware of your knees scraping the bottom of the pool.
A fool amongst idiots has an advantage over an idiot amongst fools. Put that in your e-cig and vape it!
And, for THE last time ----
www.e-cig.org/.../california-bill-banning-electronic-cigarettes-sb400-vetoed-by-governor-schwarzenegger/
Where is your info proving me wrong?
Otherwise, join CASAA or read and communicate with them. I'm sure JTC Jr's info would be of enormous interest to them.
Arguing my substantiated point with people you consider 'off the deep end' or 'idiots' won't get you anywhere. You just make us all look bad. I'm not going to involved in that. It's garbage and I don't believe you guys you don't know it's garbage as much as I
do believe you have to know on some level the consequences of peddling garbage. What you do with it? You guys decide - I have no reason to want to be involved with that 'off the deep end' garbage you're trying to peddle here.
Good luck and have a nice day.
WOW
WOW, you are the only one talking about violence. Militant does not mean violence. Taking names addresses and phone numbers doesn't mean violence, it means that you are going to write and call and pester these people kinda how politicians do to us during voting time.
You went off the deep end on this conversation.
