Batteries and Safety

[Iken]

By all means Isaac, that would put IkenVape a step above the rest. There are a few that have started this trend my good man. I personally believe it is a responsible thing to do, now since we have moved away from conventional ecigs so to speak.

Many have also started to carry nothing but protected batteries, and not only protected batteries, good protected batteries not unlike what is available here. IMHO these are all positive traits that attract and maintain customers. It shows you care (we already know that) but it gives the consumer confidence in the vendor.

Thank You Switcher!
Yes sir, It really is about the safety and well being of, not just our clients but the vaping consumers around the world. Reading here last night, i actually did develop a fear for activating my unit, even though the disasters that had happened in the past were technically user error. It's still a very scary concept. i was shocked for not seeing battery safety on the individual listings on the store! Switch can i ask you for lifep04 tests? If you don't have any, i would be more than happy to send some out to you for your expertise.

 

[Switched]

Thank You Switcher!
Yes sir, It really is about the safety and well being of, not just our clients but the vaping consumers around the world. Reading here last night, i actually did develop a fear for activating my unit, even though the disasters that had happened in the past were technically user error. It's still a very scary concept. i was shocked for not seeing battery safety on the individual listings on the store! Switch can i ask you for lifep04 tests? If you don't have any, i would be more than happy to send some out to you for your expertise.

You are more than welcome.

I believe the remainder of this discussion is better suited off line. PM pending.

 

[VaporMadness]

i was shocked for not seeing battery safety on the individual listings on the store!

That could be a nice addition. You could list which of your attys are good for use with which of your battery setups. I imagine some people are putting 2ohm attys on 10440s simply for lack of knowledge, but that's a questionable setup. Maybe color coded listings where green is within spec, yellow is questionable, and red would be don't even think about it. Maybe a spreadsheet with specific battery setups vs atty resistance... and color coded cells.

 

[Switched]

Maybe a spreadsheet with specific battery setups vs atty resistance... and color coded cells.

Great idea, not easily done though as battery specs are not available for every battery. We can generalise I suppose, but I don't really like that approach, well at least not where it concerns safety.

A caveat that also needs to be addressed is that although being cautious, stating warnings on ones site, makes you an expert on the subject, and subject to liability if something goes wrong. This is something that needs to be addressed via an attorney to make sure it is worded appropriately to reduce liability to the user,l if used wrong etc...

In the beginning folks never thought twice about stacking unprotected batteries. Now most folks will categorically state not to stack unprotected batteries, and to do so is at YOUR own risk, during device reviews.

 

[VaporMadness]

Geez... its important to avoid making stupid mistakes when working with rechargeable batts. In the last two days I made these two screwups...

1) Depleted a LiMN to around 2.4v.
That's too low and this can ruin the battery. Thankfully it wasn't at that low level for much time, and it did recharge and is still working just fine.

2) Put a batt in the charger backwards.
Holy crap!!! I even had it plugged in for a couple of seconds like that before pulling my head from you know where! Thankfully nothing horrible happened.

Ciao.

 

[Switched]

Thanks for sharing man. You be careful now you hear.

Isn't there any low voltage protection on LiMn?

 

[VaporMadness]

Isn't there any low voltage protection on LiMn?

Nope... there is no form of protection circuitry built into these cells (afaik). Otherwise capacity would be even more hampered by the space lost to that.

I'm at fault for trying to vape it after it had gone so low.

 

[Switched]

How do you know when to switch batteries? Is there a "good" "reliable" tell tale sign? I'm looking at getting some IMRs but a little leary now. Any problems with over charging them?

 

[VaporMadness]

How do you know when to switch batteries? Is there a "good" "reliable" tell tale sign? ... Any problems with over charging them?

No problems with over charging, the charger knows when to stop, and after noticing the green light I take it off the charger (I don't leave them over night).

As for tell tale sign of when its getting too low... it vapes way weaker than you'd like... generally more than enough to get me to switch batts. I was just being a lazy about doing that since it was late at night, i was tired, and I was fixing to hit the sack soon anyway. I think once they get below a certain level they must fall off really fast. I was very surprised at what it was reading when I put on on the meter (which I did out of curiosity since I knew I had let it go considerably lower than I generally do). Generally I pull it from use somewhere in the 3.3 to 3.7 volt range. This 2.4v depletion was a real anomaly and I plan on keeping it that way.

Amazingly, the LR atty was still producing *some* vapor at such a low power level. It is nice that I can vape thru the entire useful range of the batt with LR attys.

I'm looking at getting some IMRs but a little leary now.

It would be a shame if you didn't get one or two of these to try out. More than most you could actually appreciate what they do (on multiple levels, experientially and battery technology wise).

 

[Switched]

Ah, Goldielocks has come through yet again.

Thanks VM. What I like about our little family is the no BS approach in sharing info. My concerns have been answered.

Don't fret I will be using IMRs, I just wanted to make sure there was a reliable tell tale sign while vaping that protected in some way over depletion, and as stated there is.

Metaphorically speaking, how much time can we vape once we are on the reserve fuel tank? Is it a significant reserve or a short window of opportunity?

 

[Vaporologist]

Geez... its important to avoid making stupid mistakes when working with rechargeable batts. In the last two days I made these two screwups...

1) Depleted a LiMN to around 2.4v.
That's too low and this can ruin the battery. Thankfully it wasn't at that low level for much time, and it did recharge and is still working just fine.

I'm kicking myself because I cannot remember where I found this info but here's what I remember for sure. LiMN batts can be discharged to low 2+ Volts. I know for sure the number stated was between 2.1-2.5V. If the batt is drained below this level it becomes permanently damaged as you will not be able to fully recharge it anymore and it will not hold the charge. It was also stated that flashlight guys need to worry about this because they are able to over-discharge the LiMN batts because the flashlight will still provide some light even if the batts are below 2V range. However, it is a lot more difficult for us, vapers, to overdischarge LiMN batts because, once the minimum Volt level is reached, the atty will produce very little vaper and the PV will be hardly usable, as you experienced yesterday.

Switched:
How do you know when to switch batteries? Is there a "good" "reliable" tell tale sign? I'm looking at getting some IMRs but a little leary now. Any problems with over charging them?

You will clearly know without any second-guessing just as VM experienced and as I have in the past 6-7 weeks with my AW16340 IMRs. When my vapor production drops well below satisfactory levels, the batts usually test between 3.1-3.4V, well within the safe range. Vapor production decreases so drastically that the only two options are either low batts or there is something wrong with your unit. No problems with overcharging them. My TR-001 always stops charging them between 4.2-4.4 V.

Edit: Last sentence should say: My TR-001 always stops charging them between 4.22-4.24 V.

 

[Vaporologist]

Metaphorically speaking, how much time can we vape once we are on the reserve fuel tank? Is it a significant reserve or a short window of opportunity?

I don't have any technical data to back this up but from a personal experience, vapor production decreases significantly within about a 15-30 minute period. As an eGo user, I think you will appreciate that they pretty much hold their charge almost until the very end.

 

[Switched]

I'm kicking myself because I cannot remember where I found this info but here's what I remember for sure. LiMN batts can be discharged to low 2+ Volts. I know for sure the number stated was between 2.1-2.5V. If the batt is drained below this level it becomes permanently damaged as you will not be able to fully recharge it anymore and it will not hold the charge. It was also stated that flashlight guys need to worry about this because they are able to over-discharge the LiMN batts because the flashlight will still provide some light even if the batts are below 2V range. However, it is a lot more difficult for us, vapers, to overdischarge LiMN batts because, once the minimum Volt level is reached, the atty will produce very little vaper and the PV will be hardly usable, as you experienced yesterday.



You will clearly know without any second-guessing just as VM experienced and as I have in the past 6-7 weeks with my AW16340 IMRs. When my vapor production drops well below satisfactory levels, the batts usually test between 3.1-3.4V, well within the safe range. Vapor production decreases so drastically that the only two options are either low batts or there is something wrong with your unit. No problems with overcharging them. My TR-001 always stops charging them between 4.2-4.4 V.

Cool that has instilled a great deal of confidence in them

 

[Switched]

I don't have any technical data to back this up but from a personal experience, vapor production decreases significantly within about a 15-30 minute period. As an eGo user, I think you will appreciate that they pretty much hold their charge almost until the very end.

To date I have only used protected batts which as you know will shut down once the cut off is reached. This wall as you also know is really significant on the eGo.

 

[VaporMadness]

My TR-001 always stops charging them between 4.2-4.4 V.

Fyi, I think you want to avoid charging above 4.2.
Charging lithium-ion batteries
The UltraFire WF-138 (isaac sells these) cuts off around 4.17. I've got two of those chargers and they both cut off at this point.

 

[Switched]

Extremely valid point VM as IMRs do not have over-charge protection and we solely rely on the charger to ensure its cuts off where it is supposed to.

 

[Vaporologist]

Fyi, I think you want to avoid charging above 4.2.
Charging lithium-ion batteries
The UltraFire WF-138 (isaac sells these) cuts off around 4.17. I've got two of those chargers and they both cut off at this point.

Uhhhhh, I'm glad you pointed that out. I just re-read my post and saw a typo. I meant to say that it charges it between 4.22-4.24. Sorry about that.

I did have a concern regarding the charge being slightly higher than 4.20 flat so I asked around. You see, my AW 16340 Li Ions charge up to 4.18 and 4.19 respectively. But my IMRs charge up a little higher as pointed out, using the same charger. I was told by Droz (i think) that it's OK.

Btw, I'm in the middle of a project which started at 11:15 am EST. I think you'll like it. I will report my findings in a few hours when the IMR battery dies.

 

[Switched]

Uhhhhh, I'm glad you pointed that out. I just re-read my post and saw a typo. I meant to say that it charges it between 4.22-4.24. Sorry about that.

I did have a concern regarding the charge being slightly higher than 4.20 flat so I asked around. You see, my AW 16340 Li Ions charge up to 4.18 and 4.19 respectively. But my IMRs charge up a little higher as pointed out, using the same charger. I was told by Droz (i think) that it's OK.

Btw, I'm in the middle of a project which started at 11:15 am EST. I think you'll like it. I will report my findings in a few hours when the IMR battery dies.

Yup! I remember that convo.

 

[Drozd]

there's the WF-138A and the WF-138B and the WF-139...
one of the 138s is for CR123a size with the selectable output...
the other is for AA and AAA size (so 14500)...
and then the 139 which is adjustable for 18650, 14500 etc...(think it can even be modded to charge 123a size (it has 2 horizontal charging spaces that just arent connected)).....but the old stock of these was infamous for trickle charging way past what it was supposed to....the new ones are supposed to be very reliable for stopping in the 4.1x range...old stock was 2-3 years ago so they should all be out of circulation at this point

 

[Vaporologist]

Well, if you are wondering what the project was, here is the explanation and final results.

The subject: One AW 16340 3.7V IMR High Drain battery

The objective: Put it through the worst vaping abuse that my body could physically take, in order to see how the battery behaves from the beginning to the end.

Using it in my Chameleon with the LR801 2.0 ohm atty I chain-vaped until the unit was not producing almost any vapor at all. In fact, for the last 2 minutes of the test, the atty barely sizzled. For the first 4 hrs I took the battery out every 30 minutes and measure the voltage with my DMM. Following the first 4 hrs I felt the need to check the battery twice in the last 20 minutes since the vapor production decreased dramatically and rapidly. Here is what took place (11:15 am is the 0:00 starting point):

HRS ... VOLTS
0:00 ..... 4.21
0:30 ..... 4.13
1:00 ..... 4.07
1:30 ..... 4.00
2:00 ..... 3.91
2:30 ..... 3.82
3:00 ..... 3.71
3:30 ..... 3.63
4:00 ..... 3.51
--------------
4:15 ..... 3.25
4:20 ..... 2.63

After abusing this battery for about 3 hrs, the vapor production started to decrease slightly and the TH was a lot less noticeable. The vapor production started trailing off dramatically after almost 4 hrs when the battery's charge was slightly above 3.5V. I really should have stopped the test after 4 hrs and 15 min because the vapor was barely existent at 3.25V and vaping at this point was just a plain turture. I persisted in order complete the test and meet the objective.

I would safely suggest that there is at least about a 15 minute period where the battery is warning us that it needs to be charged. There will be NO doubt.

Here is something interesting which I don't understand: About 1 hour has passed since the completion of this test and the battery has been resting. I just checked the battery one more time and it's showing to be at 3.05V after it was discharged and measured at 2.63V. Hmmm.

I will perform the same test using the same battery paired with a 1.5 ohm 801 atty tomorrow and report my findings.

Edit: I always get between 5-6 hrs out of this battery before it needs to be charged under "normal" circumstance. As stated above, today's goal was to see how it performs when abused since I was in a controlled environment.