Battery do's and don't?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bluecat

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 22, 2012
3,489
3,658
Cincy
Let me ask this - Li On batteries are not a good choice? That is all i have - like 10 of em - 18650s and 18350s - for my SVD and Vamo V2.......

edit - what i have is

Panasonic CGR18650CH Rechargeable 2250mAh 3.7V 18650 Lithium batteries

ICR18350 18350 3.7V "900mAh" Rechargeable Lithium Battery

are these "safer"

Maybe someone more experienced than I can chime in. The panasonics are considered a hybrid and are similar to aw lmr batteries considered safe chemistry, magnesium based, saw a u tube vid of one being short circuited. It heated up to I believe 180c. No flames no explosion which the safe chemistry batteries are designed to do in case of something bad happening to it. The ICR is a cobalt based. Those are the ones that can explode and the battery university warns against.

The panasonic pds that I got are similiar to the chs you have or from what i read, hopefully.

There are many other differences as in discharge and charging capacities that i would do a diservice trying to explain.

Then all this depends on whether they are genuines or not.

To add li ion batteries we use everyday and just don't realize it. Almost any rechargeable device has a type of li ion in it..
 
Last edited:

vapo jam

Super Member
ECF Veteran
May 25, 2013
579
445
county of orange, ca
Let me ask this - Li On batteries are not a good choice? That is all i have - like 10 of em - 18650s and 18350s - for my SVD and Vamo V2.......

edit - what i have is

Panasonic CGR18650CH Rechargeable 2250mAh 3.7V 18650 Lithium Batteries

ICR18350 18350 3.7V "900mAh" Rechargeable Lithium Battery

are these "safer"

the panasonics are considered very safe. they're rated for 10 amp max discharge. i believe aw actually buys these batteries and re-brands them as their 2000 mah 18650's (they test the ones they buy and only sell the cream of the crop as aw's).

icr batteries are considered less safe. if they're decent quality icr's, they're generally okay for use in certain regulated mods (not recommended for your vamo, i believe, not sure about the svd). however, the chemistry has the potential to develop micro-shorts within the battery. when paired with an outside short circuit or a super-low subohm coil, this can greatly increase the chance that it will go thermal.
 

dr g

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Mar 12, 2012
3,554
2,406
Paradise
the panasonics are considered very safe. they're rated for 10 amp max discharge. i believe aw actually buys these batteries and re-brands them as their 2000 mah 18650's (they test the ones they buy and only sell the cream of the crop as aw's).

That's weird, where did you hear this?

Seeing as how the normal CGR18650CH's outperform the AW 2000, I kind of doubt this.

AkkuDB

Though I have heard it said that AW batteries are Panasonics.
 

vapo jam

Super Member
ECF Veteran
May 25, 2013
579
445
county of orange, ca
That's weird, where did you hear this?

Seeing as how the normal CGR18650CH's outperform the AW 2000, I kind of doubt this.

AkkuDB

Though I have heard it said that AW batteries are Panasonics.

don't remember exactly where i read it, but i'll dig around and update when/if i find it. i think it was mentioned earlier in this thread (probably by you?), but i do know that aw is not a battery manufacturer - he's actually just an enthusiast who buys a bunch of batteries, tests them, and re-sells only the best with his stamp of approval.

of course, anything you read on the internet should be taken at face value, but the reasons i believed that the batteries were the same were the current ratings (both are 10 amps), and because of the capacity ratings (yes, the panny is rated 2250 mah vs 2000 for the aw, but aw is well known for trying to rate capacity accurately as opposed to using ideal or theoretical values).
 

tearose50

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 2, 2011
6,608
14,260
Tennessee :-)
I for one am glad u made the thread and make it a daily reading. I am on the 2nd charge cycle on my batteries. They came off - an hour after- at 4.21 flickering to 4.22 and it made me worry. It maybe my multimeter. In the morning they were a nice 4.2. I'll just keep monitoring them. I don't think I need to worry yet. I am using panasonic pds in a svd.

I wouldn't be worried about that either.

Let me ask this - Li On batteries are not a good choice? That is all i have - like 10 of em - 18650s and 18350s - for my SVD and Vamo V2.......

edit - what i have is

Panasonic CGR18650CH Rechargeable 2250mAh 3.7V 18650 Lithium Batteries

ICR18350 18350 3.7V "900mAh" Rechargeable Lithium Battery

are these "safer"

I'll make a stab at this one. The CGR18650CH is what's called a high drain battery. VV and VV/VW devices often need high drain batteries. High drain batteries generally don't have extra protection circuits built into the battery and are "safer chemistry".

lMR is a designation of the chemistry that the battery is made from (as someone later states), but even though these Panasonics are apparently a different chemical combination people have started calling them lMR's since they are high drain.

Make sure your ICR 18350's are protected batteries. (AW's have Black Label). It should be clear in the item description where you bought them.

There are many debates about protected Li-ions vs lMR high drain batteries.

Early on there were problems with un-protected Li-ions, and more so depending on how they were used. It is my understanding that the flashlight dudes and the vaping industry strongly recommend not using the unprotected Li-ions. Occasionally, they will be supplied with some kits from China, so look out for that.

I use protected batteries in a couple of my mods where it was recommended by the supplier to do so. I tend to like using protected Li-ion batteries in my mods that don't have internal protection (not VV or VV/VW) and I am not alone. It is often wise to use the batteries recommended by the manufacturer.

Also, of course, it's good to study and review the references given in this thread now, and again, as you get more familiar with the terms.


Maybe someone more experienced than I can chime in. The panasonics are considered a hybrid and are similar to aw lmr batteries considered safe chemistry, magnesium based, saw a u tube vid of one being short circuited. It heated up to I believe 180c. No flames no explosion which the safe chemistry batteries are designed to do in case of something bad happening to it. The ICR is a cobalt based. Those are the ones that can explode and the battery university warns against.

The panasonic pds that I got are similiar to the chs you have or from what i read, hopefully.

There are many other differences as in discharge and charging capacities that i would do a diservice trying to explain.

Then all this depends on whether they are genuines or not.

To add li ion batteries we use everyday and just don't realize it. Almost any rechargeable device has a type of li ion in it..

I think you said it better than I could! I'm just not so sure about battery u being down on Protected ICR's.
 

dr g

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Mar 12, 2012
3,554
2,406
Paradise
of course, anything you read on the internet should be taken at face value, but the reasons i believed that the batteries were the same were the current ratings (both are 10 amps), and because of the capacity ratings (yes, the panny is rated 2250 mah vs 2000 for the aw, but aw is well known for trying to rate capacity accurately as opposed to using ideal or theoretical values).

Yeah but that doesn't really apply here since the discharge curve for the CH is superior to the AW2k.
 

ZeroDisorder

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 31, 2013
147
140
Oklahoma
For those of you who wonder if vaping is really safe, this is a new study over several years, involving 9000 volunteer vapers. Of course the analysis was conducted using normal wattage levels, FWIW.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...onic-cigarettes-pose-minimal-health-risk.html

I printed a few copies off and gave them to my favorite nearby vape shops. I'm carrying a few copies in the car to give to the more distant shops when I go into town.

Though, I think we're talking about battery safety, not chemical safety here. :p Though, it's great to throw this report everywhere.
 

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
42,646
Central GA
I printed a few copies off and gave them to my favorite nearby vape shops. I'm carrying a few copies in the car to give to the more distant shops when I go into town.

Though, I think we're talking about battery safety, not chemical safety here. :p Though, it's great to throw this report everywhere.

Yep, it's going to take a lot of positive publicity to overshadow the hype about antifreeze and TSNA's.
 

Baditude

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Apr 8, 2012
30,394
73,076
71
Ridgeway, Ohio
damthisisfun said:
Let me ask this - Li On batteries are not a good choice? That is all i have - like 10 of em - 18650s and 18350s - for my SVD and Vamo V2.......

edit - what i have is

Panasonic CGR18650CH Rechargeable 2250mAh 3.7V 18650 Lithium Batteries

ICR18350 18350 3.7V "900mAh" Rechargeable Lithium Battery

are these "safer"

Are these safe?TrustFire Protected 18350 3.7V 1200mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery
with protection board.
I refer you to this post which classifies batteries in order of safety:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/453266-best-18650-money-can-buy-4.html#post10339662

Recap: The Panasonic hybrid/IMRs are safer, the generic unprotected ICR Li-Ion IS NOT. The protected Trustfire is somewhere in the middle.
 
Last edited:

WattWick

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Feb 16, 2013
3,593
5,429
Cold Norway
the panasonics are considered very safe. they're rated for 10 amp max discharge. i believe aw actually buys these batteries and re-brands them as their 2000 mah 18650's (they test the ones they buy and only sell the cream of the crop as aw's).
(snip)

I don't believe any of these batteries are re-brands of any other. They may well be, however, the exact same battery with different branding. Not saying they are in this case, as I wouldn't know the specifics. Very few of these companies, if any, make their own batteries.

Batteries get manufactured, quality controlled, priced according to how they measure up and sold off to the companies who slap their own labels on them. Prior to this, they're just nameless batteries.
 

bluecat

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 22, 2012
3,489
3,658
Cincy
I wouldn't be worried about that either.

I think you said it better than I could! I'm just not so sure about battery u being down on Protected ICR's.

Thanks. I will be charging that battery tonight or tomorrow and will see what happens.

Ohh I believe the Protected ICRs are fine. Any battery is fine as long as you don't abuse what they are meant for. Just be prepared. For me though I made my choice on the Pds. I was going to get the CHs but read they were discontinued so I chose to go with the NCR18650PDs. NNP HRL and a LiNiCoAlO makeup. A strange guess is the ICR is actually LCR Lithium Cobalt Rechargeable similar to IMR being LMR Lithium Magnesium Cobalt. Then the panasonics being NCR or nickel Cobalt Rechargeable.

Sometimes to much reading on this stuff and I confuse myself.

At the end of the day I am convinced they all come from one plant in China or Japan. :)
 

Katdarling

I'm still here on ECF... sort of. ;)
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 25, 2011
32,580
167,728
Utopia
Some info that may be helpful... quoted from the candle power forums.


"I have seen a lot of threads recently on "IMR" lithium-ion cells. DFiorentino and myself have posted some test results recently (seen here and here, respectively). I also have seen a lot of comments recently that indicate a general misconception of what IMR cells actually are, especially with respect to rate capability and safety. The purpose of this thread is to clarify the issues surrounding the "IMR" designation for lithium-ion cells. I will try to keep the techno-jargin to a minimum, but please feel free to ask clarification questions if I lose you.

Unlike most battery chemistries whose name defines the chemistry of the anode and cathode, the term "lithium-ion" refers to an ever growing class of cell chemistries that utilize different materials to host lithium-ions in the charged and discharged state of the cell. Most lithium-ion cells use graphite or hard carbon as the negative electrode host material (typically referred to as the anode), but the selection of the positive electrode material (typically referred to as the cathode) is much more varied. The following three-letter designations for lithium-ion cell denote what cathode material is used in the cell:

ICR = LiCoO2 (also called LCO)
IMR = LiMn2O4 (also called LMO)
IFR = LiFePO4 (also called LFP)

If you take away one thing from this thread, remember this: The term "IMR" simply indicates that LiMn2O4 is a major component of the cathode. It does not necessarily indicate that a cell has exceptional rate capability or improved safety characteristics, properties often incorrectly associated with cells with the IMR designation.

You can stop reading now, but if you want that statement explained, please read on.

The selection of a particular cathode material generally has implications for the performance (capacity, energy density, rate capability, etc...), reliability (cycle life, calendar life) and safety characteristics. The impact of LiMn2O4 on these properties is discussed below.

Performance

The crystal structure of LiMn2O4 has three-dimensional tunnels that enable rapid diffusion of Li+ through LiMn2O4 particles, and therefore lithium-ion cells made with this material can have better theoretical drain rate capability. Conventional lithium-ion cells use LiCoO2 or variations of that material. Cells with LiCoO2 cathodes are typically designated with the term "ICR". The LiCoO2 type materials have a layered crystal structure that only enables 2D diffusion within the layers, so the overall Li+ diffusion rate is slower. Interestingly, LiFePO4, which is commonly used in high rate cells (think A123), has 1D diffusion of Li+ and an overall low diffusion rate. The only way to make LiFePO4 work is to make the particles very small (i.e. "nano") to reduce the distance that Li+ needs to diffuse. "Why not just make LiCoO2 or LiMn2O4 nano size to get even better rate capability?" I hear you ask. The only reason nano LiFePO4 works is that this material has a lower oxidizing potential (which is why the cell voltage is lower) and therefore it does not chemically react with the electrolyte. LiCoO2 and LiMn2O4 actually oxidize the electrolyte slowly with use, so using a nano-particulate cathode with these materials would greatly accelerate aging due to the higher surface area of the cathode, and the cells would have terrible cycle life.

Now back to LiMn2O4. This material has a lower crystalline density and therefore a lower inherent capacity (mAh/ml) than LiCoO2. If you do a direct replacement of LiCoO2 with LiMn2O4, the capacity of the cell will be reduced by ~15%. But here is the interesting thing: simply doing a direct replacement with LiMn2O4 will not significantly increase the rate capability of a cell. In order to get a real increase in rate capability, you need to design a cell with higher electrode surface area and thinner electrodes because Li+ diffusion in the cathode particles is not the only bottleneck to getting current out of the cell. Using thinner electrodes further reduces the capacity of the cell because you will have a higher fraction of "inert" materials like the separator and current collector. This is why IMR cells typically have ~40% lower capacity than their ICR cousins.

Safety and Reliability

An additional property of LiMn2O4 is that it cannot be overcharged. When a "true" (and I will explain why I put that in quotes later) IMR cell is charged beyond ~4.25 V, no additional capacity will go into the cell. The voltage will simply spike. This is exactly the same case for LiFePO4 cells. Cells that use LiCoO2 and its layered-metal oxide cousins can be overcharged, leading to significant safety issues when these cells are charged above their specified voltages. Cells with LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 cathodes can be damaged by overcharging (oxidation of the electrolyte leads to increased internal resistance, loss of capacity and shorter cycle life), but overcharging to higher voltage does not make them less safe. This inability to overcharge, combined with the lower total energy density, is why lithium-ion cells with LiMn2O4 and LiFePO4 are generally considered to be "safer".

The last property of LiMn2O4 that I will mention is that in its pure form it tends to have very poor cycle life. There has been a tremendous amount of research that has gone into improving the stability of LiMn2O4 to improve the cycle life of IMR cells, and this has produced cells with reasonably good long term performance. However, the easiest way to get great cycle life out of LiMn2O4 is to blend it with a separate cathode material that contains nickel. This includes the layered cathode materials Li(Nix,Cox,Mnx)O2 (aka NCM or 333), Li(NixCoyAlz)O2 (aka NCA) and Li(NixCoy)O2 (aka NCO). I won't bore you with the details, but it turns out that the oxides containing nickel acts to change the local chemistry around the LiMn2O4 particles and helps to improve stability.

The end result is that most cells called "IMR" actually have a significant fraction of nickel-containing layered metal oxide as a co-cathode. This means that these cells can in fact be overcharged, thus minimizing the perceived safety advantage of the cell.

Summary

Not all IMR cells are created equal. One cannot and should not make generalized statements about their performance, reliability or safety characteristics.

I hope this helps dispel some of the mystery surrounding these cells."
 

ZeroDisorder

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 31, 2013
147
140
Oklahoma
Lovely read Kat. Though, a bit too technical for the common folk.

What do you think about the Panasonic NCR series using the NNP + HRL tech? I think it's pretty fantastic. I would highly recommend them. I've done some controlled short circuit heating tests with great results. It does what they say it does. *gasp*

Panasonic employs the HRL [Heat Resistance Layer] Technology to improve the safety of Lithium-Ion batteries significantly. This heat resistance layer consists of an insulating metal oxide on the surface of the electrodes which leads the battery not to overheat even if a short-circuit occurs.
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE17.pdf
 

bluecat

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jun 22, 2012
3,489
3,658
Cincy
Lovely read Kat. Though, a bit too technical for the common folk.

What do you think about the Panasonic NCR series using the NNP + HRL tech? I think it's pretty fantastic. I would highly recommend them. I've done some controlled short circuit heating tests with great results. It does what they say it does. *gasp*


http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE17.pdf

I saw a u tube vid of some dude doing that to a CH.. Did you happen to video it? I was searching for a month prior to my purchase to find a vid out there.

Mind if I ask what it actually did? Just heat up like the CH?
 

dr g

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Mar 12, 2012
3,554
2,406
Paradise
Lovely read Kat. Though, a bit too technical for the common folk.

What do you think about the Panasonic NCR series using the NNP + HRL tech? I think it's pretty fantastic. I would highly recommend them. I've done some controlled short circuit heating tests with great results. It does what they say it does. *gasp*


http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE17.pdf

It appears to be super effective, in the nasa testing I linked earlier the only way they got it to vent and catch fire was to basically either crush it or burn it.
 

ZeroDisorder

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 31, 2013
147
140
Oklahoma
It appears to be super effective, in the nasa testing I linked earlier the only way they got it to vent and catch fire was to basically either crush it or burn it.

Sounds about right. I didn't crush the battery though.

I saw a u tube vid of some dude doing that to a CH.. Did you happen to video it? I was searching for a month prior to my purchase to find a vid out there.

Mind if I ask what it actually did? Just heat up like the CH?

I hard soldered a 100A battery contactor across the terminals with 8AWG wiring and let it do its thing. No catastrophic events, just some significant heating. 100C+ Next time I decide to do some destructive testing, I'll film it.

Total summation: I love the batteries. High capacity, low ESR, and the NCR18650PD has a pretty good discharge rating and I use them in my mech mods. Fused of course, just to be safe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread