Battery do's and don't?

[Lessifer]

I have nothing against sub ohm vaping, I don't feel the need to do it myself, but that's a different thread.

What everyone has said so far is, use a good battery, from a vendor that you feel you can trust. That goes the same for regulated mods as well as mechs. Best case scenario, you use a battery that can't handle what you're doing and your vape sucks, worst case the battery fails, be that a catastrophic venting or just a dead battery.

 

[bluecat]

I think I read that one should not exceed the discharge rate of the bat. . Errrr battery . From what I understand in amps. Amps is calculated by watts/volts. The vendor should have that info posted or a google search could provide it.

If I am wrong please feel free to let me know. I am still learning or trying to.

 

[Baditude]

I think I read that one should not exceed the discharge rate of the bat. . Errrr battery . From what I understand in amps. Amps is calculated by watts/volts. The vendor should have that info posted or a google search could provide it.

If I am wrong please feel free to let me know. I am still learning or trying to.

You would be correct.

E-cig vendors, even those that specialize in selling batteries, are at best inconsistant in supplying that information, or not at all, unfortunately. It wasn't until the recent use of sub ohm coils that customers even considered amperage to be important information. Many of those that should know that information aren't even aware that they should.

 

[dr g]

This was posted on August 1, 2013 somewhere else where some vapers hang out:

"This is the result of someone using a stock battery in a sub ohm build." (emphasis added)

Great, finally something we can work with! I sure wish we had a ton more information about this. The facebook post reads like most of people's "scared straight" type posts but is really short on details of what actually happened.

Oh and look, the original poster works for a company that just happens to produce mech fuses ... color me surprised. And she didn't miss the opportunity to post her company's product.

Wouldn't surprise me if these occurred under "research conditions."

 

[DaveP]

1 ohm across a 3.7v battery produces 3.7A current. That's 13.7 watts. Why is any more than that not like plugging your iron, your toaster, and your hairdryer into an outlet and bypassing the breaker to allow it to happen? It's asking for trouble, IMO. Mods cut off at 3.5A for a reason.

The objective of life is to live long and healthy and with all your sensory organs and appendages intact. Anything that heats up next to my eyes will be as safe as possible. And in my pocket ... I don't want a bottle rocket. There also won't be any bypassed circuit breakers in my home.

UL is a pain sometimes, but they try to keep us from hurting ourselves.

 

[WattWick]

No offense intended, but those numbers don't make sense on their own. It's all about the power source and its capabilities.

 

[DaveP]

No offense intended, but those numbers don't make sense on their own. It's all about the power source and its capabilities.

Plug in the numbers here and the results agree. Ohm's Law Calculator

It's all about the current flow that the battery can withstand. Li-ion not so much. IMR quite a bit more. Most mods cut off by the time they reach 3.5A. Sacrificial springs are there to prevent us from overrunning the design capabilities of the battery and the device. Bypassing all that is like sticking a penny in a fuse socket (that's only relevant for us old guys). The modern day equivalent would be installing a piece of hard copper wire around a circuit breaker.

Safety is the key. I always wonder why anyone feels the need to exceed 10 watts in vaping. Most are satisfied at 6 to 8 watts.

This thread is full of those people vaping sub-ohm coils at 3.7v - 4v. It's still operating on the edge of safety.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...y-do-so-many-people-like-vaping-low-ohms.html

 

[WattWick]

Wasn't second guessing your numbers. Was just pointing out something I believe we agree on. That the battery must be able to deliver the desired current and then some.

I think we need to distinguish between the dangers of sub-ohm vaping with inadequate batteries, shorting a battery, and having a mech mod stuck firing constantly. And the general safety of using batteries of unknown chemistry and origin no matter what device they happen to be in. Be it a mech mod, provari, ego battery, cell phone or laptop.

 

[ZeroDisorder]

I thought I'd chime in for one Don't on Lithium based batteries:

Charge while the cell is below freezing. It plates the ionized lithium on the anode, leaving quite a few potential future problems. It's almost nearly impossible to reverse.

 

[Baditude]

Do YOU know the risks? I'm not even sure I know the risks. I am starting to think the risks aren't what we think they are in theory.

I tend to disagree that is some great epidemic of green noobs trying subohm before they even understand which end of the battery is up. I think that's a made up thing, and I think it was made up by experienced vapers who see a proliferation of subohm cloud videos and know they aren't getting anywhere near that (with their Provaris, yes I said it ). Deep down inside they feel a little bad about that since these upstarts are going so far beyond anything they ever achieved and with cheap mech mods, and thus they feel the need to talk down on subohm vaping.

10 character limit

 

[DaveP]

Wasn't second guessing your numbers. Was just pointing out something I believe we agree on. That the battery must be able to deliver the desired current and then some.

I think we need to distinguish between the dangers of sub-ohm vaping with inadequate batteries, shorting a battery, and having a mech mod stuck firing constantly. And the general safety of using batteries of unknown chemistry and origin no matter what device they happen to be in. Be it a mech mod, provari, ego battery, cell phone or laptop.

I'm just a little concerned about anyone vaping without overcurrent protection. You never know when your coil will just decide to weld some turns together and suck up much more current. The vaper notices the burned taste and hopefully swaps atomizers. Yes, that could happen with a 2 ohm or 4 ohm atty coil, too. Hopefully the spring will melt first and shut it off. Your mech does have the sacrificial spring, doesn't it?

As long as it's not done in a mech mod without protection, I'm fine with it if that's what makes your vape tasty. I worry about newspaper articles that tell about some guy whose ecig blew up in his face and required $200,000 worth of plastic surgery to make him presentable. We don't need a reason for the government to try and protect us from ourselves. There might just be a few reading this thread that would try overcurrent vaping without understanding the ramifications of out of parameter and potentially unsafe design.

Make it safe and I'm good with it.

 

[timinftl]

Yes indeedy, Must always open with "Now don't try this at home; We're professionals" Seriously there are always some and it was kinda like nature was culling the herd...

 

[DaveP]

Yes indeedy, Must always open with "Now don't try this at home; We're professionals" Seriously there are always some and it was kinda like nature was culling the herd...

There's always the cry of "Why didn't you tell me this was dangerous?" after the fact. ECF is about doing it safely and not bypassing the safety devices. I wish someone would publish the low ohm do's and don'ts for all to see. I haven't seen that yet.

 

[timinftl]

Wow ! That is so far over my head.... And I thought a non-leaking tank was real tech knowledge
There is so much to learn before trying one's own design and construction. You and some of the other Einsteins should teach all this in a dedicated Forum . Please ? At least teach a noob just what the benefits of using lower ohms in the head are. So many partial explanations are being passed around it's really a challenge to sift the diamonds out of the flour.

 

[DaveP]

Wow ! That is so far over my head.... And I thought a non-leaking tank was real tech knowledge
There is so much to learn before trying one's own design and construction. You and some of the other Einsteins should teach all this in a dedicated Forum . Please ? At least teach a noob just what the benefits of using lower ohms in the head are. So many partial explanations are being passed around it's really a challenge to sift the diamonds out of the flour.

I'm a 2.5 ohm to 2.8 ohm vaper. Sometimes, I will vape a 2 ohm coil at 3.7v. I doubt I'll ever try low ohm or especially sub ohm vaping.

There are some points I see that need to be covered.

1. Protection devices are built into electronic mods. Overcurrent cutoff at 3A - 4A is there to prevent batteries from overheating. The time cutoff which varies from 5 to 16 seconds is also there to control temperatures and battery heat as well as preventing runaway actuation in your pocket.

2. Battery caps with sacrificial springs designed to sag under high current load are there to relax the battery tension and shut off the mod as a last resort in case of electronic failure and are the first line of protection in a mechanical mod. They would activate and shut down a sub one ohm device, so they probably aren't in use.

These protections don't exist in high current low ohm mechanical mods (except for the spring in some). Low ohms are said to produce better atomization of the juice due to finer wire that more efficiently vaporizes the juice. The problem is that only mechanical mods will operate with sub one ohm coils, so you lose the protection of the electronics and may not be able to use the sacrificial springs due to high current loads at 3.7v. That makes low ohm vaping kind of dangerous, IMO.

Some here who are more into low ohm vaping may be able to better explain why its better and maybe why it isn't dangerous. I fall on the side of preventing danger with something that I use near my face and keep in my pocket between vapes. If you can't ensure that it will cut off in the event of runaway, then in my book it's dangerous. I've had my VV mod shut down because an atomizer shorted or went too low from coils touching each other. I want that to happen instead of smoke coming out of my pocket or the battery vent shooting hot chemicals and fire out the vent.

 

[dr g]

Wow ! That is so far over my head.... And I thought a non-leaking tank was real tech knowledge
There is so much to learn before trying one's own design and construction. You and some of the other Einsteins should teach all this in a dedicated Forum . Please ? At least teach a noob just what the benefits of using lower ohms in the head are. So many partial explanations are being passed around it's really a challenge to sift the diamonds out of the flour.

A non-leaking tank is WAY harder than subohm! Then try a subohm non-leaking tank!

 

[dr g]

Wasn't second guessing your numbers. Was just pointing out something I believe we agree on. That the battery must be able to deliver the desired current and then some.

I think we need to distinguish between the dangers of sub-ohm vaping with inadequate batteries, shorting a battery, and having a mech mod stuck firing constantly. And the general safety of using batteries of unknown chemistry and origin no matter what device they happen to be in. Be it a mech mod, provari, ego battery, cell phone or laptop.

This. I don't think it's the subohm coil that's really the problem, almost ever. It's the mech mod if anything.

And FWIW 3.5A is childsplay, there are regulated mods that can do subohm and/or near subohm, and there is no stopping a runaway besides somehow cooling the battery down. But luckily 3.5A doesn't come close to heating up good batteries.

 

[Katdarling]

timinftl, totally understand the non-leaking tank being a challenge!

There is definitely a LOT of info for you right here on ECF, and also on Battery University. Baditude posted several links a few pages back but sorrowfully I can't find that post right now. ('tude? Can you repost?)

But here's one I did find:

I just came across an excellent guide on batteries, with a focus specifically on batteries for use in a mod using rebuildable atomizers, found in the RBA Forum here on ECF. Of particular interest in choosing a safer battery, he recommends IMR (high-drain, safe-chemistry) and those brands that document the maximum amp draw, which is determined by the battery's C rating and mAh rating.

A side note: This link is from PBusardo's Taste Your Juice website. He recently has been outspoken in discouraging sub ohm vaping for safety reasons, as many veteran vapor's here at ECF have. It seems that sub ohm vaping is getting more and more criticism as more people learn what it is.

Despite this, he authored this guide to help educate those vapors who are using RBAs which demand the highest performing batteries. This is the first and only reference that I've seen thus far which gives factual information on which batteries are safe to use in these demanding situations.

A Little on Battery Safety
Edit: ECF is not allowing a direct link to the article. Go to PBusardo's TasteYourJuice website. Type in "batteries" in the search window at the top right of the page. It's worth the extra effort.

There's always the cry of "Why didn't you tell me this was dangerous?" after the fact. ECF is about doing it safely and not bypassing the safety devices. I wish someone would publish the low ohm do's and don'ts for all to see. I haven't seen that yet.

How's about starting that thread, Dave?

 

[DaveP]

How's about starting that thread, Dave?

I'm probably not the right guy to do that, not needing less than 2 ohms to get a good vape at mid range voltages. Someone who's actually involved in it and has done the math might be better suited. I do wish that person would start the thread, though. There's no reason for someone to experience a runaway because no one told them how to do it right.

If it becomes popular, mods will arise with the correct safety devices to reduce the danger. From the description of those who do it, it sounds like the vapor is much tastier at sub ohm levels. It's why they do it. 5v at 2 ohms gives you a 12.5W vape at 2.5A. It's just not a good vape for me at that level using standardized atomizers.

Sub ohm vapers say the world changes with a point something coil at standard 3.7v levels and if you tried it you wouldn't go back. I don't care to try it because of the battery limitations.

There are plenty of resources on ECF for those who want to learn about sub ohm vaping. Here's one.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...help-picking-best-battery-sub-ohm-vaping.html

 

[dr g]

The ironic thing is ... you can name the good high drain batteries currently available in like one sentence.