Battery got very hot, need advice...

[Darryl Licht]

Here's the story:

Last night I bought a new mod. Luckily I took my old mod and while still in the store put the batt from my old mod into the new one. Apparently this new mod (ipv Mini V2) was bad straight outta the box. I didn't even get the mod turned on yet and it started to get warm, then hot. After maybe 5-10 seconds max, I removed battery and it was nearly too hot to hold. I took it outside the shop and placed it on the concrete for safety and to let it cool. Luckily I did all this in the shop and the owner and I were the only ones in the place. The owner then asked me where I got the battery (Illumn.com), how old it was (3 weeks), and he insinuated that I had a bad batt... then he put one of his own batts into the mod and the same thing happened to his batt. Needless to say he replaced that mod right then and there.

I let the batt continue to cool down outside for a lil longer then took it home and let it rest for about 2 hours. Then I placed it on the charger and let it charge overnight. The batt got so hot that it bubbled the shrink warp a little bit in places.

Today the batt didn't last as long as it did before all this happened, is it a goner or?
If it isn't a goner, is there anything I should do to try and revive it? I'm an old RC car racer and we used to cycle old batts and revive them, but those were NiCads and I realize that Li Ions are different and have no memory... Your advice is welcomed!

TIA!

 

[Zazoie]

What coil resistance were you running in your IVP? And what watts did you fire it on?

Battery? I would get a new one.

 

[Darryl Licht]

What coil resistance were you running in your IVP? And what watts did you fire it on?

Battery? I would get a new one.

Perhaps you didn't read my entire OP?

As I said, the mod was fresh OOB, not turned on, and no atty. Obviously this mod had a direct short OOB!

 

[AndriaD]

I'm not sure I'd ever want to use that battery, after that -- no way of knowing if something internal might have been damaged by the excessive heat.

I retired one of mine just because the "flat top" got a bit mashed in -- it *might* be fine, but I don't want to wager on "might" with all the energy contained in a battery.

Great that the vendor saw the problem was NOT the battery, but the brand new mod.

Andria

 

[Darryl Licht]

I'm not sure I'd ever want to use that battery, after that -- no way of knowing if something internal might have been damaged by the excessive heat.

I retired one of mine just because the "flat top" got a bit mashed in -- it *might* be fine, but I don't want to wager on "might" with all the energy contained in a battery.

Great that the vendor saw the problem was NOT the battery, but the brand new mod.

Andria

It didn't get so hot that it vented, no fumes, no expansion... it even took a full charge on my NC D4. It worked fine today, but seemed to be not as strong or long lasting as before "the cooking"!

 

[Ryedan]

Darryl, do you know what the battery voltage was before you put it in the charger? Also, what battery is it?

 

[Darryl Licht]

Darryl, do you know what the battery voltage was before you put it in the charger? Also, what battery is it?

It's an LGHE2, and the voltage was 2.77 when I stuck it on the charger last night.

 

[Yozhik]

Why risk your safety over a $10 battery? If you have any reason to not trust a battery, replace it.

 

[Ryedan]

It's an LGHE2, and the voltage was 2.77 when I stuck it on the charger last night.

That's a great battery. IMO, this is a judgement call. I doubt anyone will be able to say for sure that the battery is not damaged.

Had this happened to me, I would have recycled the battery without taking the risk of charging it. Now that you've charged it, vaped it and you know it doesn't last as long as before, you know there has been an internal change in it. The question is, is the change the same as what happens from normal aging, or is the change dangerous. When you discharge these batts too low they form crystals which can cause internal shorts, which is the most dangerous way to short a battery. When this happens they can vent at any time, even if they are not being abused at the time. I don't know what happens internally to Li-ion cells when they are shorted for as long as in your case, other than it is not good.

There is no way I know of to the bring this battery back.

 

[Darryl Licht]

That's a great battery. IMO, this is a judgement call. I doubt anyone will be able to say for sure that the battery is not damaged.

Had this happened to me, I would have recycled the battery without taking the risk of charging it. Now that you've charged it, vaped it and you know it doesn't last as long as before, you know there has been an internal change in it. The question is, is the change the same as what happens from normal aging, or is the change dangerous. When you discharge these batts too low they form crystals which can cause internal shorts, which is the most dangerous way to short a battery. When this happens they can vent at any time, even if they are not being abused at the time. I don't know what happens to Li-ion cells from such fast discharge, other than it is not good.

There is no way I know of to the bring this battery back.

I'm pretty new to this 18650 Li-Ion stuff, so when I got a few batts I got 1 each of the LGHE2, Sammy INR-25R, and a MXJO. I would have got a Sony VTC5 if they were available too. Honestly I feel the Sammy is the best performer out of the bunch.

You seem to be very knowledgeable on this stuff, what do you think? Is there any big leader among the 3 I have? I'm going to get a couple more batts from Illumn.com soon... sooner now that it appears I have a hurt batt.

 

[Ryedan]

I'm pretty new to this 18650 Li-Ion stuff, so when I got a few batts I got 1 each of the LGHE2, Sammy INR-25R, and a MXJO. I would have got a Sony VTC5 if they were available too. Honestly I feel the Sammy is the best performer out of the bunch.

You seem to be very knowledgeable on this stuff, what do you think? Is there any big leader among the 3 I have? I'm going to get a couple more batts from Illumn.com soon... sooner now that it appears I have a hurt batt.

I have 25R, HE2 and a pair each of VTC3, VTC4 and VTC5. I got a couple of VTC5's just before the supply dried up. Here's a thread I started last year; Comparison of VTC4, VTC5, LG ICR18650HE2 and Samsung INR18650-25R. The 20A batteries heat up more than the 30A batts at 15A and up. There was cooling used for those tests when the batts got too hot.

My all day vape is a mechanical mod setup drawing about 14A. I use the HE2 and 25R for that and I can't tell the difference in the vape between them. I have a setup that I vape occasionally which draws about 21A and I use the VTC5's for that.

If I had to buy batts today I would get the 25R for under 20A vaping and the VTC4 for over 20A. I would not buy MXJO because I don't now what they are under the wrap.

 

[Darryl Licht]

I have 25R, HE2 and a pair each of VTC3, VTC4 and VTC5. I got a couple of VTC5's just before the supply dried up. Here's a thread I started last year; Comparison of VTC4, VTC5, LG ICR18650HE2 and Samsung INR18650-25R. The 20A batteries heat up more than the 30A batts at 15A and up. There was cooling used for those tests when the batts got too hot.

My all day vape is a mechanical mod setup drawing about 14A. I use the HE2 and 25R for that and I can't tell the difference in the vape between them. I have a setup that I vape occasionally which draws about 21A and I use the VTC5's for that.

If I had to buy batts today I would get the 25R for under 20A vaping and the VTC4 for over 20A.

Thank you very much!

I am now curious, if you cannot tell the difference between the HE2 and 25R, why do you prefer the 25R's?

The only thing (I think) I notice is that the 25R's seems to last just a lil bit longer. My mod is a regulated iPV Mini V2, which will never go over 50W, so I think I'll be fine with the 25R's.

One other Q... since the VTC4 is only 2000mah, wont it have a shorter useable time per day?

Off to read your link now...

 

[Ryedan]

Thank you very much!

You're welcome

I am now curious, if you cannot tell the difference between the HE2 and 25R, why do you prefer the 25R's?

The 25R does a bit better in the charts. If you look at the 5A chart in the first link and the 20A chart in my post the 25R is ever so slightly better both with less voltage drop and lasting slightly longer. Look at the 35A performance in my post with cooling and the 25R looks like it's way less stressed. It even compares very well to the VTC5. Sure, I would never vape it at 35A, but if it handles that better than the HE2 my feeling is it will last longer before I have to recycle it, but that's just my opinion.

My mod is a regulated iPV Mini V2, which will never go over 50W, so I think I'll be fine with the 25R's.

50 watts draws about 13A at 4.2V battery voltage and about 19A at 3V. IMO that's OK in a regulated mod, but it's the limit.

One other Q... since the VTC4 is only 2000mah, wont it have a shorter useable time per day?

It's 2100 mAh. It depends. Look at my 20A chart. If you change batts at 3V there is a small difference, but it's not nearly as much as you would expect from the mAh difference. Lower than that is where differences become meaningful. I think these charts use under load data so 2.9-3V is probably about right for when your mod will stop working. I change batts at 3.2-3.3V so I'm in a completely different area of the charts and it's extremely close there.

 

[Darryl Licht]

You're welcome



The 25R does a bit better in the charts. If you look at the 5A chart in the first link and the 20A chart in my post the 25R is ever so slightly better both with less voltage drop and lasting slightly longer. Look at the 35A performance in my post with cooling and the 25R looks like it's way less stressed. It even compares very well to the VTC5. Sure, I would never vape it at 35A, but if it handles that better than the HE2 my feeling is it will last longer before I have to recycle it, but that's just my opinion.



50 watts draws about 13A at 4.2V battery voltage and about 19A at 3V. IMO that's OK in a regulated mod, but it's the limit.



It's 2100 mAh. It depends. Look at my 20A chart. If you change batts at 3V there is a small difference, but it's not nearly as much as you would expect from the mAh difference. Lower than that is where differences become meaningful. I think these charts use under load data so 2.9-3V is probably about right for when your mod will stop working. I change batts at 3.2-3.3V so I'm in a completely different area of the charts and it's extremely close there.

After reading your post and re-visiting the charts that's what convinced me to get a 25R in the 1st place...

Thanks for the wonderful input, I appreciate it!

 

[Yozhik]

I let the batt continue to cool down outside for a lil longer then took it home and let it rest for about 2 hours. Then I placed it on the charger and let it charge overnight. The batt got so hot that it bubbled the shrink warp a little bit in places.

TIA!

So looking into this more, the fact that the shrink wrap bubbled means you should no longer use the battery. The PVC wrap doesn't begin to melt until temperatures well above 100 degrees Celsius, which means that your lithium battery was well above safe operating temperatures. The SEI layer on the anode has likely begun to break down, which can lead to future thermal runaway. In addition, you may also have damage to the battery's internal separator, which can allow short circuits between the electrodes, and breakdown in the electrolyte itself. In other words, your battery is no longer safe.

 

[Darryl Licht]

So looking into this more, the fact that the shrink wrap bubbled means you should no longer use the battery. The PVC wrap doesn't begin to melt until temperatures well above 100 degrees Celsius, which means that your lithium battery was well above safe operating temperatures. The SEI layer on the anode has likely begun to break down, which can lead to future thermal runaway. In addition, you may also have damage to the battery's internal separator, which can allow short circuits between the electrodes, and breakdown in the electrolyte itself. In other words, your battery is no longer safe.

Sorry, but no way it got to 100 Celsius/212 Fahrenheit! The PVS didn't melt but got lil bubbles...I'll post a pic. I did throw in onto the pavement as I got overly cautious and nervous that it might pop... Some of the bubbles could be from the pavement too.

It was hot, about as hot as I could hold, but no way did it get to boiling point of water!
...and I know what boiling H20 feels like on the hand... don't ask how! LOL!

 

[Rickajho]

Regardless, it got cooked by the APV, then it got cooked by the charger. It's time to stop wondering if it's gonna cook again - recycle it.

 

[Darryl Licht]

Regardless, it got cooked by the APV, then it got cooked by the charger. It's time to stop wondering if it's gonna cook again - recycle it.

Who said it got cooked by the charger? It didn't even get warm while charging.
Never the less, I'm ordering a few new Sammy 25R's in the morning!
Is 10 seconds of direct short really enough to waste a batt?

 

[CajunCloud]

I would say when in doubt... Toss it out! They will take high heat but overheating them will destroy the life of the battery. Once you start blistering the shell you have reached a point well beyond the designed spec maximum. Usually a outer coating of such a thing would have a failure rate 2x or more above the max expected discharge/charge rate for safety. Stay under that and you won't see bubbled sleeves, go over and you toasted it well beyond its expected working specs.

And I know what you mean about RC. The Nicads were hot but try the new lithium packs after a hot run that puppy is to hot to touch for a few. Gets pretty hot on the charger too. I am waiting to see someone on here make a mod box hooka out of one of these with a HUGE coil Yeah it vapes 10ml a pull!!!

CC

 

[Train2]

Is that just weird lighting, or did the heat change the color of the wrap?
Those look more "Pink" than an LG should!



I also bought "one each" of the Samsung 25 and LGHE2, but my LG had a weird issue out of the box (it kept charging...on and on...past 4.3) so I swapped it for another Samsung, and probably will stick with them. Heck, most of the time I'm under 8 amps, so I'm not desperately seeking a 30 amp battery replacement...