Battery Safety Questions

[MrDripper]

If your device has removable batteries, they should always be removed to charge them properly. If you battery is internal and not removable, you'll want to use the cable that came with it and a wall plug adapter that is rated for 1 amp output only UNLESS your device offers a 2 amp fast charge cycle...
Using a 2 amp output on a device that isn't rated for 2 amp fast charge, will result in bad things happening.
The rear of the wall adapter will indicate what the output is. Most, but not all, USB wall adapters have 2 USB ports. One is 1 amp and the other is usually 1.5 or 2 amps.
Always read your manufacturers instructions booklet.
Vape On and Vape Safe!

 

[VNeil]

One more comment about charging and the need to cool down batteries after charging. I previously mentioned that my batteries are stone cold throughout the charge cycle, and while resting in the charger for well after charging. If my Li-Ion batteries were coming off the charger hot, I would dump that charger immediately. If anyone here has a charger that actually heats up their batteries then that would be a good subject for discussion.

 

[Continuity]

I think that letting cells 'rest' for at least a short time after charging is likely of more benefit when using higher charging rates, due to the extra heat generated and to allow the chemical matrix inside to stabilise.

There have been some interesting recent studies on what happens on the inside of these types of cells as determined using X-rays etc, when they're discharging/charging at different rates that show crystalline structures inside forming and dispersing.

IIRC, one of those studies indicated that the widely-held belief that a lower charging rate was always preferable, even if the cell remains cold with a higher charge rate, wasn't necessarily true and that the matrix inside the cell actually regenerated better and more consistently using a slightly higher charge rate (nothing mad, AFAIKR - like 350mA compared to 750mA/1A).

I'll try and find links to the studies and I'll post them here if successful.

 

[VNeil]

If your device has removable batteries, they should always be removed to charge them properly. If you battery is internal and not removable, you'll want to use the cable that came with it and a wall plug adapter that is rated for 1 amp output only UNLESS your device offers a 2 amp fast charge cycle...
Using a 2 amp output on a device that isn't rated for 2 amp fast charge, will result in bad things happening.
The rear of the wall adapter will indicate what the output is. Most, but not all, USB wall adapters have 2 USB ports. One is 1 amp and the other is usually 1.5 or 2 amps.
Always read your manufacturers instructions booklet.
Vape On and Vape Safe!

A properly designed internal charger will control the amount of current that it pulls from the USB output adapter. Please do not spread disinformation. If your USB wall adapter outputs 2A and your charger charges at 500ma, it is perfectly safe.

 

[Vinnybagodoughnuts]

If your device has removable batteries, they should always be removed to charge them properly. If you battery is internal and not removable, you'll want to use the cable that came with it and a wall plug adapter that is rated for 1 amp output only UNLESS your device offers a 2 amp fast charge cycle...
Using a 2 amp output on a device that isn't rated for 2 amp fast charge, will result in bad things happening.
The rear of the wall adapter will indicate what the output is. Most, but not all, USB wall adapters have 2 USB ports. One is 1 amp and the other is usually 1.5 or 2 amps.
Always read your manufacturers instructions booklet.
Vape On and Vape Safe!

As I understand it you can use any wall wart that is rated for at least 1 amp.Using one that is capable of 2 or more amps will not be a problem. Just because it can allow more amperage the device or charger will only draw what it draws.

Edit:VNeil beat me to it.lol

 

[Continuity]

If your device has removable batteries, they should always be removed to charge them properly.

Don't a lot of modern non-bottom-of-barrel mods use essentially the same, or at least known-decent (like the TP4056) charging ICs that decent external chargers use?

I mean, I always use an external charger myself, but I'm not averse to very occasionally plugging my mod into a car USB adapter or USB wall-wart of 800mA-1A+ capability to top it off when I'm out and about.

If you battery is internal and not removable, you'll want to use the cable that came with it and a wall plug adapter that is rated for 1 amp output only UNLESS your device offers a 2 amp fast charge cycle...
Using a 2 amp output on a device that isn't rated for 2 amp fast charge, will result in bad things happening.

Surely, any sane device will only take the charge Amperage it requires from a power supply, so you can safely use a 20A 5V charger to charge your mod with, but the mod will only draw what it needs (usually 800mA-1A for most common mods although there are outliers that charge at lower and higher rates).

The danger lies in attempting to use a charger which is rated *lower* than what the mod requires, which can lead to the power supply overheating and/or 'browning out' and/or supplying dirty, poorly-regulated power to your device.

 

[Lessifer]

One more comment about charging and the need to cool down batteries after charging. I previously mentioned that my batteries are stone cold throughout the charge cycle, and while resting in the charger for well after charging. If my Li-Ion batteries were coming off the charger hot, I would dump that charger immediately. If anyone here has a charger that actually heats up their batteries then that would be a good subject for discussion.

My nitecore i2 charger does get the batteries warm, not hot, while charging. Although, by the end of the charge they are stone cold.

 

[Lessifer]

Don't a lot of modern non-bottom-of-barrel mods use essentially the same, or at lest known-decent (like the TP4056) charging ICs that decent external chargers use?

I mean, I always use an external charger myself, but I'm not averse to very occasionally plugging my mod into a car USB adapter or USB wall-wart of 800mA-1A+ capability to top it off if I'm out and about.


Surely, any sane device will only take the charge Amperage it requires from a power supply, so you cIan safely use a 20A 5V charger to charge your mod with, but the mod will only draw what it needs (usually 800mA-1A for most common mods although there are outliers that charge at lower and higher rates).

The danger lies in attempting to use a charger which is rated *lower* than what the mod requires, which can lead to the power supply overheating and/or 'browning out' and/or supplying dirty, poorly-regulated power to your device.

I'm not arguing, but when giving a "rule of thumb" it's sometimes best to assume that people are using the bottom of the barrel stuff, as those are the ones likely to have a problem. Most people will have no idea what kind of charging circuit is in their mod.

 

[Continuity]

On the subject of trickle charging...If anyone can reference a Li-Ion charge controller chip whose datasheet does specify a post charge trickle charge then that would add to this discussion.

The MCP7383 IC apparently supports this method of operation - using a trickle charge at the end of the cycle to top the cell off.

MCP73833 - Battery Management and Fuel Gauges - Battery Chargers

Charging is performed in three stages: first a preconditioning charge, then a constant-current fast charge and finally a constant-voltage trickle charge to keep the battery topped-up. The fast-charge current is 500mA by default, but is easily adjustable from 100mA up to 1000mA by soldering a through-hole resistor on-board.

 

[Cohumulone]

To speak only for myself: I am using a Wismec RX75, a single battery 75W max output mod. Probably middle of the road in terms of quality. Actually has all the controlability I think I'd need. Just not enough battery for my typical day which is why I'm looking at the RX200s. I already like Wismec, and that one has 3 batteries. I vape between 40 and 45W, depending on the flavor.

 

[retired1]

Let's watch the over the top rhetoric. There's some good info being passed along in this thread, it would be a shame to have to close it down due to the actions of just one or two individuals.

 

[Continuity]

My nitecore i2 charger does get the batteries warm, not hot, while charging. Although, by the end of the charge they are stone cold.

I would think that the warmth you are feeling from your cells is due to heat being transferred from the charger rather than emanating from the cells themselves.

The I2 puts out, what - 500mA max - into batteries? Any 18650 cell of decent capacity and in decent condition shouldn't be warming up noticeably at a low charge rate like that.

My Nitecore D2 (375-500mA) doesn't warm my batteries (Samsung 25R and 30Q) up at all when charging them at any stage, and the D2 has the mains transformer built-into it's very compact case which doesn't have any fans or active cooling in it.

Quite a few chargers use external, or even high-output (2.5-3+ Amp) USB power supplies to separate the heat from the PSU from the battery slots.

 

[Continuity]

Let's watch the over the top rhetoric. There's some good info being passed along in this thread, it would be a shame to have to close it down due to the actions of just one or two individuals.

Is it something I said?

 

[Continuity]

I'm not arguing, but when giving a "rule of thumb" it's sometimes best to assume that people are using the bottom of the barrel stuff, as those are the ones likely to have a problem. Most people will have no idea what kind of charging circuit is in their mod.

Oh - I agree with this sentiment, entirely.

I am admittedly the type who always wants a peek inside my mods to see what components have been used, and to see if there are any ways I could mod it to maybe improve on some cost-cutting design decision that the manufacturer might have made.

I know that TP4096 charging boards (not just the ICs) can be had practically for pennies these days, and it would hopefully make sense for even cheap manufacturers to use them in their devices that support USB charging.

Mind you - having seen some of the shocking states of the innards of some Chinesium power supplies etc., I know that one can't take anything for granted in this game.

 

[Lessifer]

I would think that the warmth you are feeling from your cells is due to heat being transferred from the charger rather than emanating from the cells themselves.

The I2 puts out, what - 500mA max - into batteries? Any 18650 cell of decent capacity and in decent condition shouldn't be warming up noticeably at a low charge rate like that.

My Nitecore D2 (375-500mA) doesn't warm my batteries (Samsung 25R and 30Q) up at all when charging them at any stage, and the D2 has the mains transformer built-into it's very compact case which doesn't have any fans or active cooling in it.

Quite a few chargers use external, or even high-output (2.5-3+ Amp) USB power supplies to separate the heat from the PSU from the battery slots.

I suppose that's possible, the area with the vents is the warmest part, but the cells themselves do warm a bit. Like I said, not hot, just warm, as in above room temperature.

 

[VNeil]

The MCP7383 IC apparently supports this method of operation - using a trickle charge at the end of the cycle to top the cell off.

MCP73833 - Battery Management and Fuel Gauges - Battery Chargers

Charging is performed in three stages: first a preconditioning charge, then a constant-current fast charge and finally a constant-voltage trickle charge to keep the battery topped-up. The fast-charge current is 500mA by default, but is easily adjustable from 100mA up to 1000mA by soldering a through-hole resistor on-board.

I could not find the above quote in your link page. However, the datasheet does NOT mention a post-charge "trickle charge mode". The datasheet implies that once the battery voltage hits 4.20V (adjustable but this is the default) it will enter a "constant voltage mode", and then implies that it will charge as needed to maintain that voltage. I could not determine, from a quick search, what threshold will trigger a charge.

ETA: On a second read, it appears that a "trickle charge" cycle kicks in again when the battery voltage drops to between 94 and 96.5% of the target voltage (4.2V), or roughly 3.99V.

I think we have a definition problem here. A typical NiMH charger will fast charge until a predetermined cutoff point, and thereafter will apply a constant current to the battery, continuously and forever. It is a very "dumb" mode that keeps the battery fully charged. This is at least my interpretation of the meaning of a "trickle charge mode".

What your quote suggests, in combination with the rather vague discussion I found in the datasheet, is a much smarter mode that will periodically restart a charge cycle and then shut it off when the battery voltage drops below some threshold value. It is not a dumb but low current continuous charge mode.

According to batteryuniversity.com, based on actual real world tests they reference, the optimum point to recharge a Li-ion is about 50% charge. Recharging after a complete or near complete discharge results in somewhat less battery life, based on full charge equivalents. Similarly, and very importantly here, they also indicated that recharging at a 90% charge level would result in about the same effective battery life as a full discharge. That suggests that leaving a battery in a charger with such a constant voltage mode full time, essentially forever, would very modestly reduce the useful life of the battery.

But that is not the issue here. It was suggested previously here that batteries should be removed from the charger "as soon as possible" after charging completes, and it was that suggestion that I addressed. That "as soon as possible" suggestion also implied related safety issues but I don't think that can be substantiated by anything in the charger datasheets or other credible information. It is merely a matter of how to optimize battery life. I don;t think leaving a battery in the charger for a few hours, or even overnight, is going to trigger so many constant voltage recharge cycles to have much effect even on the battery life. These batteries don't self-discharge all that quickly, unlike standard NiMH batteries for example.

 

[Lessifer]

I could not find the above quote in your link page. However, the datasheet does NOT mention a post-charge "trickle charge mode". The datasheet implies that once the battery voltage hits 4.20V (adjustable but this is the default) it will enter a "constant voltage mode", and then implies that it will charge as needed to maintain that voltage. I could not determine, from a quick search, what threshold will trigger a charge.

ETA: On a second read, it appears that a "trickle charge" cycle kicks in again when the battery voltage drops to between 94 and 96.5% of the target voltage (4.2V), or roughly 3.99V.

I think we have a definition problem here. A typical NiMH charger will fast charge until a predetermined cutoff point, and thereafter will apply a constant current to the battery, continuously and forever. It is a very "dumb" mode that keeps the battery fully charged. This is at least my interpretation of the meaning of a "trickle charge mode".

What your quote suggests, in combination with the rather vague discussion I found in the datasheet, is a much smarter mode that will periodically restart a charge cycle and then shut it off when the battery voltage drops below some threshold value. It is not a dumb but low current continuous charge mode.

According to batteryuniversity.com, based on actual real world tests they reference, the optimum point to recharge a Li-ion is about 50% charge. Recharging after a complete or near complete discharge results in somewhat less battery life, based on full charge equivalents. Similarly, and very importantly here, they also indicated that recharging at a 90% charge level would result in about the same effective battery life as a full discharge. That suggests that leaving a battery in a charger with such a constant voltage mode full time, essentially forever, would very modestly reduce the useful life of the battery.

But that is not the issue here. It was suggested previously here that batteries should be removed from the charger "as soon as possible" after charging completes, and it was that suggestion that I addressed. That "as soon as possible" suggestion also implied related safety issues but I don't think that can be substantiated by anything in the charger datasheets or other credible information. It is merely a matter of how to optimize battery life. I don;t think leaving a battery in the charger for a few hours, or even overnight, is going to trigger so many constant voltage recharge cycles to have much effect even on the battery life. These batteries don't self-discharge all that quickly, unlike standard NiMH batteries for example.

Admittedly I know very little about batteries. For me, I choose not to leave batteries in the charger any longer than I have to based solely on the observation that many issues with batteries occur while charging, so minimizing time on the charger seems prudent.

 

[VNeil]

Admittedly I know very little about batteries. For me, I choose not to leave batteries in the charger any longer than I have to based solely on the observation that many issues with batteries occur while charging, so minimizing time on the charger seems prudent.

It would be more prudent to unplug EVERYTHING in your house before every thunderstorm. On a statistical level

While there is nothing wrong with caution my point is that minuscule risks are quite overblown here. For every vaper that's had a charger blow up, probably 100 vapers have had major damage from lightning storms. But "we" tend to obsess over every anecdotal report of vape related problems.

I don't leave batteries in the charger for long periods of time either, but I don't go out of my way to minimize the time because I think I have a handle on the statistical unlikelihood of it being an actual problem, or significantly reduce the life expectancy of the batteries.

 

[Lessifer]

It would be more prudent to unplug EVERYTHING in your house before every thunderstorm. On a statistical level

While there is nothing wrong with caution my point is that minuscule risks are quite overblown here. For every vaper that's had a charger blow up, probably 100 vapers have had major damage from lightning storms. But "we" tend to obsess over every anecdotal report of vape related problems.

I don't leave batteries in the charger for long periods of time either, but I don't go out of my way to minimize the time because I think I have a handle on the statistical unlikelihood of it being an actual problem, or significantly reduce the life expectancy of the batteries.

I agree, I'm not obsessive about it. It's one of those things that's easy to minimize though. I have enough batteries for long rotations so it's easy enough to only charge when I'm going to be near the charger for a few hours at least. I also know that the i2 isn't one of the best chargers out there, though it is good enough to get the job done.

 

[pappcam]

Let's watch the over the top rhetoric. There's some good info being passed along in this thread, it would be a shame to have to close it down due to the actions of just one or two individuals.

People are spreading false information though. Shouldn't we be allowed to correct people who are wrong? If this place is really about educating people then they should be getting truthful and factual information.