Battery Voltages -- Surprise!

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JW50

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They are 3.7 volt batteries, just like all the others. They charge to about 4.2 volts, just like all the rest. The voltage "straight off the meter" has no meaning. They regulate at almost 3.1 volts with just about any reasonable load.

I build most of my cartomizers with about a 3Ω coil, which go through about 9ml of juice per day. That's more than I want to consume, and I have a recent build with a 4Ω coil that uses about 6ml of juice per day.

This is the kind of cartomizer that I use:

MasterpieceII-R3.jpg


That's it in my avatar.

Let me change the question asked. What is the unloaded voltage just off the charger for your Hello 016? My experience is that "unregulated" will be around 4.2v (unloaded). The "regulated" (even unloaded) will be considerably lower - maybe 3.4v or so. I think unloaded voltage does give a clue about "regulation". True that unloaded voltage will not be meaningful in terms of watts at atty but, IMO, meaningful about "regulation".
 

br5495

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Let me change the question asked. What is the unloaded voltage just off the charger for your Hello 016? My experience is that "unregulated" will be around 4.2v (unloaded). The "regulated" (even unloaded) will be considerably lower - maybe 3.4v or so. I think unloaded voltage does give a clue about "regulation". True that unloaded voltage will not be meaningful in terms of watts at atty but, IMO, meaningful about "regulation".

The voltage directly off the charger without a load is about 4.0 volts.

I take my voltage measurements while the cartomizer is in actual use. The voltage is about 3.1 on all the different ones that I have tested in the 2.5Ω to 4.0Ω range.

You can see a Hello 016 battery here--->Hello 016 1300 mAH

This home made gadget is used for taking these measurements.

testrig.jpg
 

JW50

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What do they read straight off the meter? My worn-out eGos were reading 3.3 or less and they could barely drive a 2.0 ohm cartomizer.

[Sorry just noticed you said 3.1.]

What kind of atty/carto are you using?

What do you mean by "could barely drive 2.0 ohm cartomizer." You imply it "drove it" but - "just barely". What is difference between "just barely" and regular "drive". If loaded voltage is 3.3 and resistance is 2.0 ohms, I think watts produced is 5.4. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) 5.4 watts should be adequate for many e-liquids. 5.4 not bad, IMO. Works well most of time for me. Just my 2CW.
 

JW50

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The voltage directly off the charger without a load is about 4.0 volts.

I take my voltage measurements while the cartomizer is in actual use. The voltage is about 3.1 on all the different ones that I have tested in the 2.5Ω to 4.0Ω range.

You can see a Hello 016 battery here--->Hello 016 1300 mAH

This home made gadget is used for taking these measurements.

testrig.jpg

Looked at pic of Hello 016. Still wondering where that 016 comes from. No huge deal but - on other hand - grand conspiracy to confuse us! Device to read loaded voltage seems right to me. But its not one of those things you would take to mall to impress the girls (or whatever). Some people think any PV is nerdish. Wonder what they would think with this one (maybe you should smile at lot when using!). With voltage without load just off charger at 4v (seems at bit weird from my experiences - but not 3.4 range) I would say it's unregulated. That is, loaded voltage just off charger will be maybe 80% of that. After several hours on use, unloaded voltage will decline. Maybe 3.7 (unloaded) if start was 4. Loaded voltage there would be maybe 3.4. If "regulated" about 3.4 off charger - unloaded. Loaded - maybe 3.2 or so. IMO, unregulated gives better vape most of time with "most of time" being maybe 90% of use period if unregulated is used to cut-off. If re-charge started before cut-off, 100% of use time. I suspect others might have different opinion (But they would be wrong - of course).
 

br5495

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Looked at pic of Hello 016. Still wondering where that 016 comes from. No huge deal but - on other hand - grand conspiracy to confuse us! Device to read loaded voltage seems right to me. But its not one of those things you would take to mall to impress the girls (or whatever). Some people think any PV is nerdish. Wonder what they would think with this one (maybe you should smile at lot when using!). With voltage without load just off charger at 4v (seems at bit weird from my experiences - but not 3.4 range) I would say it's unregulated. That is, loaded voltage just off charger will be maybe 80% of that. After several hours on use, unloaded voltage will decline. Maybe 3.7 (unloaded) if start was 4. Loaded voltage there would be maybe 3.4. If "regulated" about 3.4 off charger - unloaded. Loaded - maybe 3.2 or so. IMO, unregulated gives better vape most of time with "most of time" being maybe 90% of use period if unregulated is used to cut-off. If re-charge started before cut-off, 100% of use time. I suspect others might have different opinion (But they would be wrong - of course).

I am 76 years old and not trying to impress the girls. Not trying to impress anyone here either.

With a fresh charge, my Hello batteries measure about 3.1 volts while in use. After about 10 hours of heavy vaping, the voltage measures about 3.1 volts while in use. Interpret that however you wish.

I used this rig in the doctor's office this morning and no one said anything about it. I did not feel like smiling a lot.
 

Katya

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With voltage without load just off charger at 4v (seems at bit weird from my experiences - but not 3.4 range) I would say it's unregulated.

JW, have you read the thread carefully?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/joye-510/65055-battery-voltages-surprise-12.html#post992865

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/joye-510/65055-battery-voltages-surprise-13.html#post993411

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/joye-510/65055-battery-voltages-surprise-14.html#post996803

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/joye-510/65055-battery-voltages-surprise-15.html#post997830

And so on and so on...

The unloaded voltage of 510 batteries fresh off the charger can reach 4.2 v. That's what this whole thead has been about.
 

JW50

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Not sure I understand your meaning here. Yes - I've read the thread. Not sure about the careful part. I think I mentioned the 4.2 number. My experience has been that "regulated" bats (meaning bats with PWM wave form) are not 4.2v, unloaded, just off charger. Instead, more like 3.4. "510 batteries" covers a wide range. The Hello 016 mentioned I think could be considered a 510 bat. However, the 3.1 loaded, just off charger and 3.1 loaded after 10 hours of use makes it sound "regulated". With a Tornado, 650 mah bat (a regulated bat), I never get a voltage as low as 3.1. With a newer Riva, 750 mah bat (an unregulated bat), I get a 3.1 loaded number but only for short period near cut-off point. For most of use period I get a loaded voltage well above 3.3 (3.8 at begin, just off charger). Perhaps this is yet another surprise. A regulated bat but regulated at different voltage than Joye (or Tornado), 650 mah bats!
 

MalabarFront

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What do you mean by "could barely drive 2.0 ohm cartomizer." You imply it "drove it" but - "just barely". What is difference between "just barely" and regular "drive". If loaded voltage is 3.3 and resistance is 2.0 ohms, I think watts produced is 5.4. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) 5.4 watts should be adequate for many e-liquids. 5.4 not bad, IMO. Works well most of time for me. Just my 2CW.

I meant that the vapor production was extremely poor - so they were functioning, yes, but not performing adequately. Note that these were worn-out eGos reading 3.1V directly off the multimeter (whereas the good ones were reading ~3.7V). Since they're regulated batteries it's hard to say what their actual wattage was in this situation.

(Although, I've dropped them so many times I'm surprised their little circuit boards could function at all!)
 

JW50

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I meant that the vapor production was extremely poor - so they were functioning, yes, but not performing adequately. Note that these were worn-out eGos reading 3.1V directly off the multimeter (whereas the good ones were reading ~3.7V). Since they're regulated batteries it's hard to say what their actual wattage was in this situation.

(Although, I've dropped them so many times I'm surprised their little circuit boards could function at all!)

I see. If I had given more thought to initial comment I would have understood. Crazy thing though. For an eGo bat (a Joye 650 mah or Torando 650 mah) I have never gotten either a 3.7v read or a 3.1v read in an unloaded state. I get around 3.4v unloaded and around 3.2v loaded at 2.5 ohms. ???
 

jimho

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I see. If I had given more thought to initial comment I would have understood. Crazy thing though. For an eGo bat (a Joye 650 mah or Torando 650 mah) I have never gotten either a 3.7v read or a 3.1v read in an unloaded state. I get around 3.4v unloaded and around 3.2v loaded at 2.5 ohms. ???

Your meeter probably isn't set up to properly measure RMS voltages from pulsed DC waveforms (most aren't - unless they specifically say they are) - the readings you get may vary from others because of the meter you are using and how it reacts to pulsed signals- more important than how much it's off by is that you get consistent readings when its fully charged and discharged.

Also, when your batterys are worn, you will see shorter run times- but fully charged/right off the charger they should not produce different voltages unless there is something wrong with your PCB's.
 

jimho

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The coil doesn't recognize DC pulses anymore than a light bulb recognizes 60 cycles. I don't need an RMS meter to measure light bulb voltage.

I don't have time to argue this or explain it... but that depends on the frequency and duty cycle of the pulses.. .and measuring two phase AC is completly different than measuring DC pulses - Even if your meeter is accurately telling you the amplitude of the pulses, unless you know the duty cycle and frequency you don't know what the circuit output is.
 

JW50

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Your meeter probably isn't set up to properly measure RMS voltages from pulsed DC waveforms (most aren't - unless they specifically say they are) - the readings you get may vary from others because of the meter you are using and how it reacts to pulsed signals- more important than how much it's off by is that you get consistent readings when its fully charged and discharged.

Also, when your batterys are worn, you will see shorter run times- but fully charged/right off the charger they should not produce different voltages unless there is something wrong with your PCB's.

Perhaps you are right. I'm using a Fluke 11 multimeter set to DC voltage. But, on other had, I do get very clear differences when reading say the unloaded voltage of a Riva, 750 mah bat versus the unloaded voltage of a Joye, 650 mah bat. Riva, 750 mah bat probes out at 4.2v, unloaded, just off charger. Charger is labeled as "Output DC 4.2V 420mA". That suggest to me that 4.2v, unloaded, just off charger is correct. (Perhaps an interesting point here is that instructions that come with Riva bat say to initially charge it for 8 full hours whether charge light is green or not. To be it seems to be suggesting that charging continues if if green. But, bat university says li-ion should not be over charged. Per 4.2v output limits overcharge potential?) Then on Joye, 650 mah, unloaded, just off charger I read 3.44v. Presumably that is meter's interpretation of the PWM output of bat through its board. By memory that seems to jive with other posts on this thread although probably not a post of Scottbee as, my memory, he had little faith in unloaded voltages. But what I have found - 4.2v for Rives just off bat and 3.44 (let's call it 3.4v) for Joye. Both numbers - unloaded. Then same reads but loaded at 2.5 ohms - Riva, 3.81v and Joye, 3.23v. Use both for several hours then 2.5 ohm loaded voltage becomes ~3.37v for Riva and 3.23v for Joye. The Joye (regulated) tends to stay close to a constant number throughout charge life. But on Riva loaded voltage declines for the 3.81 just off charger, to 3.37v after several hours of use, to finally about 3.05v just prior to cut-off. That is, not much change for Joye but considerable time decline for Riva. But Riva only gets to Joye range for short time period just prior to cut-off. For most of use within any charge cycle, Riva is higher than Joye. Perhaps there is meter person out there who could from numbers given determine the peak voltage of a pulse of the regulated bat presuming that pulses occurred in regular cycles. I think Scottbee showed "regular" cycle was present in the later period Riva SE. But - returning to basic point - I think the Rivas (and not just the SE Rivas) are unregulated and I think for majority of a charge life those Rivas produce more watts than Joye's or Tornado regulated bats. To me, noticeable (notwithstanding volts or watts) in terms of amount of vape and, for juices I use, noticeable in terms of improved flavor. Also, I don't think there is any real difference in mah of Joye or Riva. Different numbers come from different methods used to calculate the numbers. The watt-hours of the basic li-ion bat used is same for both Riva and Joye. Bottom line, basically better vape with Riva - IMO.
 

JW50

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I don't have time to argue this or explain it... but that depends on the frequency and duty cycle of the pulses.. .and measuring two phase AC is completly different than measuring DC pulses - Even if your meeter is accurately telling you the amplitude of the pulses, unless you know the duty cycle and frequency you don't know what the circuit output is.

I think the AC mentioned was single phase.
 

DaveP

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Late response to this thread, but maybe it will start up some conversation again. I think both of you were talking about the same thing. Reading the average value of a pulsed battery is an accurate assessment of what the atomizer will see. Just like what you would see if you wired up a light bulb to a momentary switch and pulsed it for a dimmer glow, the atomizer will respond similar to the way it would if the voltage were pure dc at 4.2vdc.

I agree that Ego is offering the most consistent vape at a PWM version of the battery's output over time. The Riva is offering a hotter vape, but shorter charge life and a consistent reduction in voltage over time.

Scottbee, are you still around? I haven't seen you in the outside lately, either? I just picked up a 1000mah Ego batt for some points I accumulated at Awesome Vapor. It's a good battery, but I suspect that it is 3.4vdc output. I just saw a youtube video where a guy from Hoosier's hooked up an 18650 and then a 1100mah Ego under load to an atomizer with a little digital voltmeter in the loop. The 1100mah Ego read 3.84 volts and the 18650 read 3.44 volts on the same atomizer.

Do you know if Joye/Ego has stopped the PWM on their batteries? Maybe I should have gotten an 1100 and used my points for something else!
 

JW50

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...

I agree that Ego is offering the most consistent vape at a PWM version of the battery's output over time. The Riva is offering a hotter vape, but shorter charge life and a consistent reduction in voltage over time.

...

I agree that PWM can give a more consistent vape. I think the way the Joye eGo seeks to do that is by using PWM circuit board that gives consistent voltage throughout discharge cycle. Just off charger - lower duty cycle. Then toward cut-off, duty cycle close to 1.0. But, notwithstanding a constant voltage, power (watts) at atty still declines as discharge occurs. Decline of power for non-PWM batt is greater than PWM of the Joye type - but both decline. IMO, "charge life" about same for either PWM or non-PWM. But in case of non-PWM, higher watts at start of discharge cycle compared to PWM batt and lesser watts toward cut-off as compared to PWM batt.
 

Stonemull

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you need to measure PWM with RMS meters to get an accurate reading if you want to compute power from it, power is proportional to V^2 not volts, non RMS meters read average voltage not RMS voltage ..
take for eg a hypothetical (easy maths) mod regulating to 2V average .. if the battery was 2V and the atty is 1Ω then you will have 100% duty cycle and power will be 4W (v^2/r)
if you fed this mod with say 4V and your meter read average volts and said 2v .. then you are outputting 4v 50% of the time .. a quick calculation using the average voltage of 2V would indicate wattage at 4W exactly as above.
It wpuld be wrong ,,
in reality you are outputting 4v 50% of the time .. thats 16W at 50% .. the actual power is 8W now.
a true RMS meter would indicate the voltage in this situation as √8 volts = 2.82V, calculations using Vrms will show 8W. Vaverage 4W .. a big difference at only 50% duty.

I do not know whether ego/510 regulate to an average or a RMS voltage calculation, logic would say RMS but in actuality average is probably easier though not by a lot.
 
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