Being Reasonable as a Community

[wv2win]

So what - you think the answer is to just rant about how awful the FDA is? How wrong they are? We have a political process in this country and it's important to any democratic society to follow that process (and don't look to Congress as a good example of that!). All I'm saying is that we, as a community, need to use the democratic process -- if/when the FDA issues regulations we ALL need to respond. We should ALL be writing to our Senators and Representatives about how vaping has helped us and those we know -- Ranting about the FDA isn't going to do any good - you have power in your vote and in your voice - so use them. That's all I was trying to say -

Well, I agree with you and have been doing exactly what you suggest, because it is the only avenue available. But I have considerable concern about how effective it will be.

Since you work in a similar environment as the FDA, I would really like to understand the reasons behind the actions of these bureaucrats to date. We have been told by very knowledgeable people in the anti-smoking arena, who have years of contact with mid-level employees in the FDA, that they know that vaping is harmless and actually could be a positive alternative to smoking. But those in the higher echelons of the FDA are still against it. Many of us believe it has everything to do with the FDA's number one constituent, Big Pharm., where many higher level FDA personnel end up working. How do you effectively fight that? What does it say about these people?

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Thank you for clarification.

Personally, I think banning sales to minors is the ONLY regulation that is needed. I don't want more taxes and I don't want online sales banned -- but have no problem with not selling to minors -- but even that seems silly since most retailers won't sell to minors anyway --

When I said I understand the need for regulations, I wasn't really thinking of e-cigs, but rather other things that really do need regulation. I'm not getting into those here because I've caused enough trouble as it is!!

 

[TreVader]

"The Government" is not one contiguous entity. Do you think NASA gives a **** about you smoking your e-cigs? TSA? ANYBODY besides congress?

The reason the FDA is moving to regulate E-Cigs is not because they hate freedom or the secession of smoking or any reason besides PEOPLE calling CONGRESS and asking them to regulate it. Nobody else deserves blame.

 

[shelleyb]

And I WAS the type of person that thought the government really did have my best interest at heart. I had no clue about ecigs or the fights that happened over them. I no longer take things politically at face value. Like I stated, my eyes have been forced open. I'm sure not liking what I'm seeing. I now question things that I thought I knew previously. It is totally sad.

Which is why it is time for us to come together and make our voices heard. We should be contacting our Congresspersons and making sure that OUR government hears our voices --

 

[wv2win]

Will ranting help?

No, but it helps the stress level, lol.

 

[stevegmu]

Just about everything is regulated- especially substances which are inhaled- even air. It is just a matter of time before there will be regulations. It is a joke to think a $billion/year industry will go unnoticed, unregulated and not taxed.

 

[Fulgurant]

Will ranting help?

Nah, but it can be fun sometimes. Healthy even.

And as wv2win points out, we're not the anti-rational bullies in this fight. I don't mean to direct this at you, but when someone like the OP comes into a forum like this one and leads with the premise that we need to get more "reasonable," it's both patronizing and ill-directed. You don't tell the victim of a crime to moderate his complaints after he's been assaulted, or worse, when he's in the process of being assaulted.

There are, of course, other problems with the OP; that he styled himself as the arbiter of reasonable discourse in the title is the least of them.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Which is why it is time for us to come together and make our voices heard. We should be contacting our Congresspersons and making sure that OUR government hears our voices --

shellyb - Have you contacted your Congresspersons and suggested that...

1) ecigarette material should not be sold to minors, and

2) no other regulation is necessary..?

If you have, some participants here might benefit from viewing possible documentation as it might apply to contacting their Congresspersons.

 

[Robino1]

Which is why it is time for us to come together and make our voices heard. We should be contacting our Congresspersons and making sure that OUR government hears our voices --

Oh I'm certainly doing that. In fact, tomorrow morning I will be taking a little drive and sitting in on a City Council meeting. I will speak if I have the chance to do so.

 

[shelleyb]

Well, I agree with you and have been doing exactly what you suggest, because it is the only avenue available. But I have considerable concern about how effective it will be.

Since you work in a similar environment as the FDA, I would really like to understand the reasons behind the actions of these bureaucrats to date. We have been told by very knowledgeable people in the anti-smoking arena, who have years of contact with mid-level employees in the FDA, that they know that vaping is harmless and actually could be a positive alternative to smoking. But those in the higher echelons of the FDA are still against it. Many of us believe it has everything to do with the FDA's number one constituent, Big Pharm., where many higher level FDA personnel end up working. How do you effectively fight that? What does it say about these people?

Without risking my job! I just know that regulations are first drafted by low to mid-level employees. Sometimes these are new federal (state) employees who are on a "mission" to save to the world and they believe they have the knowledge that the rest of us lack. They aren't necessarily bad people. Many times they do believe in what they are doing. Many regulations actually get "toned" down through many many revisions and comments internally. However, once posted, regulations are "proposed" and there is a process for public comments - and at least in my job and my agency - we pay very close attention to public comments. Especially when there are numerous comments on the same regulation. You would honestly, though be amazed at how much public outrage you will hear on the news about some regulation, and how few public comments are actually submitted.

When a regulation is purposed - that proposed regulation can only be changed as a result of public comment - so if there is a section that is horrible, but no one actually submits a public comment - no matter how much news our outcry there is -- that regulation cannot be changed.

That's all I'm try to say here, is we need to be sure we COMMENT -- and not just one or two people but everyone, take the time to go and submit good reasoned comments --

The public comment process isn't simple -- well it's not that hard - you can just write a letter - but the comments have to be submitted to the entity listed in the Federal Register -- the comment must be official comments - That's all I was trying to point out. We can rant here all we want to, but if we don't come together as a community and fight these regulations in the official manner, we aren't going to win.

 

[wv2win]

I do not disagree that the FDA is often not rational!! In my original post I said "But I also understand that those writing regulations are sometimes influenced by personal beliefs and not hard scientific fact."

Believe me I have seen the irrationality of government regulations, but I also know that public comments are the best way to stop the irrational regulations from becoming final.

I just hope that everyone in this forum will realize that if/when regulations come out they will be "proposed" and we have that opportunity to stop the insanity of the FDA if we respond in rational well reasoned ways --

That's all I was trying to say . . .

I agree with you, that it is the only option. I hope we are effective. It is one of the reasons I get upset that so few vapers take the time to join CASAA.

Your rationale is sound. But after dealing with the idiocy of the FDA and media outlets lying about vaping for 4 years, it becomes quite frustrating. It's understandable why many believe this country has gone down the wrong path for way too long (I know that is a generalization - but I'm sure you get the point)

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Just about everything is regulated- especially substances which are inhaled- even air. It is just a matter of time before there will be regulations. It is a joke to think a $billion/year industry will go unnoticed, unregulated and not taxed.

I can recall trying to get permission from my parents as a young teenager. 'But, Mom, everybody at school is doing that!' I was told that just because everybody is doing something is not necessarily a good reason to do something.

 

[wv2win]

Without risking my job! I just know that regulations are first drafted by low to mid-level employees. Sometimes these are new federal (state) employees who are on a "mission" to save to the world and they believe they have the knowledge that the rest of us lack. They aren't necessarily bad people. Many times they do believe in what they are doing. Many regulations actually get "toned" down through many many revisions and comments internally. However, once posted, regulations are "proposed" and there is a process for public comments - and at least in my job and my agency - we pay very close attention to public comments. Especially when there are numerous comments on the same regulation. You would honestly, though be amazed at how much public outrage you will hear on the news about some regulation, and how few public comments are actually submitted.

When a regulation is purposed - that proposed regulation can only be changed as a result of public comment - so if there is a section that is horrible, but no one actually submits a public comment - no matter how much news our outcry there is -- that regulation cannot be changed.

That's all I'm try to say here, is we need to be sure we COMMENT -- and not just one or two people but everyone, take the time to go and submit good reasoned comments --

The public comment process isn't simple -- well it's not that hard - you can just write a letter - but the comments have to be submitted to the entity listed in the Federal Register -- the comment must be official comments - That's all I was trying to point out. We can rant here all we want to, but if we don't come together as a community and fight these regulations in the official manner, we aren't going to win.

Thank you for the explanation. Although I still believe there is an element of Big Pharm/FDA collusion to some degree.

Since you are an attorney in the federal regulatory arena and a CASAA member, I hope you will provide your insight directly to the CASAA board, which might be quite helpful.

 

[wv2win]

Nah, but it can be fun sometimes. Healthy even.

And as wv2win points out, we're not the anti-rational bullies in this fight. I don't mean to direct this at you, but when someone like the OP comes into a forum like this one and leads with the premise that we need to get more "reasonable," it's both patronizing and ill-directed. You don't tell the victim of a crime to moderate his complaints after he's been assaulted, or worse, when he's in the process of being assaulted.

There are, of course, other problems with the OP; that he styled himself as the arbiter of reasonable discourse in the title is the least of them.

Very well stated and excellent comparison.

 

[shelleyb]

shellyb - Have you contacted your Congresspersons and suggested that...

1) ecigarette material should not be sold to minors, and

2) no other regulation is necessary..?

If you have, some participants here might benefit from viewing possible documentation as it might apply to contacting their Congresspersons.

Here's an easy way - sign this petition:
http://www.change.org/petitions/fda...utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

And then go here: Find Your Representative · House.gov and find your Congressperson and here:
U.S. Senate: Senators Home and find your Senator.

And send them a personal email -- you can simply copy and paste from the petition or better yet write in your own words why it's important to you --

I also send links to good articles and studies on e-cigs to my Congresspeople! Once you find them and have their email, it's easy to forward to them.

And they do pay attention to emails -- my son worked for a Congressman and for a Senator as an intern when he was in college and he read every email and letter and kept track of what was being said --

 

[shelleyb]

Oh I'm certainly doing that. In fact, tomorrow morning I will be taking a little drive and sitting in on a City Council meeting. I will speak if I have the chance to do so.

I have to admit, I haven't been as active on the local level as on the federal level -- you raise a good point and I will start paying more attention locally!!!

 

[peterforpats]

I agree with you Ref Minor that nicotine levels should be tested for accuracy - but I'm afraid even that is a slippery slope to over regulation and more taxes. I'm not sure how you reconcile the two. I believe that consumers can regulate the industry by buying for reputable suppliers and that even the industry itself could perhaps do self-regulation so consumers know who is and isn't using safe practices and safe products - personally I prefer that to government regulation --

wasn't there a company that over nic'd their juice which had the potential to harm many customers- box elder , I believe. no industry can expect to do that and not expect some govt. official to do something. as a matter of fact if a lot of people were actually harmed a lot of them would be screaming for somebody to do something(after hiring a lawyer)-that somebody would be the govt.........

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

wasn't there a company that over nic'd their juice which had the potential to harm many customers- box elder , I believe. no industry can expect to do that and not expect some govt. official to do something. as a matter of fact if a lot of people were actually harmed a lot of them would be screaming for somebody to do something(after hiring a lawyer)-that somebody would be the govt.........

Was there? But in that case, wouldn't somebody have gotten hurt? I mean the users would have had no way to know that they were "overdosing," correct? So surely someone would have had something bad happen in the wake of an event like this. Do you have a link to this? I'm curious.

 

[Robino1]

wasn't there a company that over nic'd their juice which had the potential to harm many customers- box elder , I believe. no industry can expect to do that and not expect some govt. official to do something. as a matter of fact if a lot of people were actually harmed a lot of them would be screaming for somebody to do something(after hiring a lawyer)-that somebody would be the govt.........

Yes there was. It was before I had even heard of vaping. The community here on ECF brought that out into the open and made the company accountable. There is a thread around here that details all that went on. Very interesting read. No one got sick because the community is the way it is. We actually do a damn fine job of policing ourselves.

Yes it was Box elder.


A few months ago a warning was sounded about an unsafe mod. The mod was recalled as soon as the alarm was sounded. Was the government involved? No. Did it get taken care of in a timely fashion? Yes. Probably faster than if we had to deal with governmental red tape.

 

[Racehorse]

I don't NEED someone to tell me what is safe for me. We as humans should open our minds and realize that the knowledge is out there.

What is your background in knowing about skin grafts, blood products, veterinary drugs and vaccines, and even biotechnological devices inserted into people's bodies? Are you able to professionally advise end users about this stuff, as well as publish a clearinghouse of all the clinical tests that have been done, and assemble them someplace?

Maybe ya'll in Kentucky know about stuff that the rest of us don't know about, but I surely can't claim to be an expert on most of this stuff that you claim the knowledge is out there for. I do know that it would take a real long time finding and assmebling all those tests, if suddenly, you or a loved one needed an emergency surgery and had to make a split-second decison over what device to use??

However, I do know that a lot of Americans trust the opinion of the FDA

I can't speak for other Americans, Kristin, but I know when my doctor was advising me, he was able to look at the test results assembled by the FDA and we went over them together. We chose carefully, and the data was of great use to us. Maybe it wasn't perfect, I don't know, but my point is, that it was THERE for us to look at.

I was really happy that the FDA was around when I had a skin graft and some other biotechnology device inserted, many of my friends wear pacemakers, etc.

I also USE, and am grateful for, the Nutritional Label Facts while shopping, I have to read labels to avoid aspartame, MSG, and gluten, which would make me very sick if I ate them. (Go grocery and drug store shopping in Chile, then come back and tell me about your experiences. )


Many in the ecig community are not "throw the baby out with the bathwater" types, and do not actually want to dismantle the entire FDA and govt. over ecigs.

I surely do not mind fighting the FDA over Ecigs.........but this idea that ECF is categorically and totally anti FDA, and that anyone who doesn't think like this won't be welcomed on the forum-----some of you appear to be representing it like this?

Keep in mind, many members, and others who may want to join ECF, due to their jobs and other professional affiliations, don't want to be part of that *label*

So---

Please remember, some of you who are saying that members with differing opinions and even differing political view aren't welcome here, remember that you don't speak for all of us, and that as far as I can see ECF has no history of treating members badly over their political views. !!!!

If that starts happening, and you make it that kind of place, it would be very bad, IMHO.