Bench Retest Results: Golisi Black S35 30A 3750mAh 21700...accurately rated, LiPo chemistry

[mimöschen]

There is no elemental cobalt inside these cells though.
Analogy:
Carbon, Oxygen and Hydrogen are not toxic on their own. H2O aka water is fairly common and not toxic as well.
But if you combine them to create CH4O better known as Methanol and you've got something you'd better not drink in purest form, because those uncontrollable urges to puke aside, it may blind you, because of its neurotoxic properties.
Same goes for a lot of compbounds, or combinations of pure elements if you like. Some are harmless, but some are dangerous to the point that you can't even mumble "s**t" after drinking/inhaling/touching them.

 

[Robin Becker]

The safetyissues always start after the cells have been used, because all of them deteriorate. And we don't know at which rate they do so, nor do we know the exact chemistry of any cell out there.
All we know is, that all "modern cells" use some kind of hybrid chemistry. Even those from the Big4.
What's most important here is, is that you just can't beat physics. So with less reactive, aka safer materials, you can't deliver the same performance than with more reactive or more volatile materials.
Because of that it's a safe bet, that this S35, the Samsung 40T and the Sanyo 2070C aren't that far apart when it comes to chemistries.
Nevertheless most of them are much more advanced and inherently safer than most cells from a few years back.

I have no objection on that!

We know, that Li-Ion manufacturer do not design their batteries for our use (vaping) and therefore guys like Mooch test the batteries, compare the information given from the manufacturer and try to find the values that are right for using in eCigaretts.
As single batteries become more powerful (CDR raises, Energy density raises), the level of danger raises.
Using a battery from well-known manufacturer gives you a certain guarantee (as long as the battery is not a fake, or damage), that the engineers of this company have taken their time to design and test their battery, before we see it being placed on the market. In addition Engineering companies like UL, the German TUEV and more are taking lot´s of money to test and certify those batteries.

This is what is missing on unknown Chinese made manufacturer. And if Company A rebrand a battery from an unknown manufacturer and does not give us any proof of safety in terms of external certifications, references etc., IMO it is very risky to use those batteries.

We are not talking here about a power-tool, or about a RC-device...we are talking about a device we use few centimeres away from our head.

 

[BillW50]

but some are dangerous to the point that you can't even mumble "s**t" after drinking/inhaling/touching them.

Funny, there is a Youtube video of a guy who calls himself professor and had taken one apart and touched everything inside with his hands. This isn't the one I was thinking of, but it will do.

 

[BillW50]

We know, that Li-Ion manufacturer do not design their batteries for our use (vaping) and therefore guys like Mooch test the batteries, compare the information given from the manufacturer and try to find the values that are right for using in eCigaretts.

Odd, Aspire owns part of the Yongdeli Battery Factory and they manufacture cells for vaping and even lists specs for vaping.

 

[Robin Becker]

Odd, Aspire owns part of the Yongdeli Battery Factory and they manufacture cells for vaping and even lists specs for vaping.

So what? We know that Aspire systematically overrate their batteries. How can we trust such a company? Do their batteries have any external certification? Do we have any proof, that those batteries are safe?
Aspire batteries are for me like those generic ...... coming from India, or elsewhere...might work, can be also dangerous....

 

[BillW50]

So what? We know that Aspire systematically overrate their batteries. How can we trust such a company? Do their batteries have any external certification? Do we have any proof, that those batteries are safe?

Do we have proof vaping is safe?

In Busardo's video of the Yongdeli Battery Factory, they show how they manufacture and test them. If Samsung did the same tests, they wouldn't had any exploding cellphones. Aspire even tests a small percentage by making sure that crushing and even drilling as hole in them won't cause them to explode.

Aspire overrates their cells? Well maybe, but they rated their 26650 cells only good for 20A continuous and Mooch gave it a rating of 30A continuous. So apparently they unrated their cells too.

 

[Mooch]

Most regulated mods have protections that you can't make a battery explode. They have protections like:

• Reverse battery protection
• Weak battery (not high enough amp rating)
• Short circuit protection
• Over voltage and under voltage protection
• Over heat protection

Pretty tough to have a mishap with a regulated mod.

As long as the wraps are intact.
Two cans touching in a series-connected regulated mod will short-circuit one of the cells and, of course, any problems at the top can cause a short circuit when inserting or removing a cell.

 

[Mooch]

Do we have proof vaping is safe?

In Busardo's video of the Yongdeli Battery Factory, they show how they manufacture and test them. If Samsung did the same tests, they wouldn't had any exploding cellphones. Aspire even tests a small percentage by making sure that crushing and even drilling as hole in them won't cause them to explode.

Aspire overrates their cells? Well maybe, but they rated their 26650 cells only good for 20A continuous and Mooch gave it a rating of 30A continuous. So apparently they unrated their cells too.

All of Samsung’s round cells pass more stringent testing than Aspire’s cells, including that physical abuse you described. The pouch LiPo’s that Samsung had problems with are totally different cells and Samsung makes millions of them.

Do you know the failure rate for Aspire’s cells? None of us do. It’s a very, very bad sign though that they must let them sit for weeks before selling them just to weed out the failing cells.

 

[mimöschen]

Funny, there is a Youtube video of a guy who calls himself professor and had taken one apart and touched everything inside with his hands. This isn't the one I was thinking of, but it will do.

You're one of those funny "alternative facts guys", huh?
Touching short-time is something different than longtime exposure.
And that's what's happening on the dumpsites.

I have no objection on that!

We know, that Li-Ion manufacturer do not design their batteries for our use (vaping) and therefore guys like Mooch test the batteries, compare the information given from the manufacturer and try to find the values that are right for using in eCigaretts.
As single batteries become more powerful (CDR raises, Energy density raises), the level of danger raises.
Using a battery from well-known manufacturer gives you a certain guarantee (as long as the battery is not a fake, or damage), that the engineers of this company have taken their time to design and test their battery, before we see it being placed on the market. In addition Engineering companies like UL, the German TUEV and more are taking lot´s of money to test and certify those batteries.

This is what is missing on unknown Chinese made manufacturer. And if Company A rebrand a battery from an unknown manufacturer and does not give us any proof of safety in terms of external certifications, references etc., IMO it is very risky to use those batteries.

We are not talking here about a power-tool, or about a RC-device...we are talking about a device we use few centimeres away from our head.

1. The basic safety tests were done on this cell and are documented.
2. The Lipos you attach to your ear on a regular basis lack even this.
Remember the exploding Samsung cellphone disaster?
3. (Some of) the organizations you mentioned make money for testing various stuff.
And their vest isn't as white as you'd like them to be. Ask a few diesel owners out there for example

 

[Mooch]

Funny, there is a Youtube video of a guy who calls himself professor and had taken one apart and touched everything inside with his hands. This isn't the one I was thinking of, but it will do.

Not a good idea though. The solvents in these cells are not a good thing to touch or inhale the fumes of. Is the oxide of cobalt okay to handle? The MSDS says it’s not a great idea.

 

[Robin Becker]

1. The basic safety tests were done on this cell and are documented.
2. The Lipos you attach to your ear on a regular basis lack even this.
Remember the exploding Samsung cellphone disaster?
3. (Some of) the organizations you mentioned make money for testing various stuff.
And their vest isn't as white as you'd like them to be. Ask a few diesel owners out there for example

1. Basic safety tests?
which? and where can I see the documentation? UN-Test is just a safety test for transportation.

2. Samsung mobile phone disaster - yes I agree and Samsung a few billion value company took those products from the market and paid compensation to the people. Exactly like Toyota did, or Dell...but I never heard on any such compensation or recall from Chinese companies like SMOK, or Efest.

3. Those Organizations carry the liability for their test results. TUEV had to pay lots of money as a compensation for certifying faulty silicone implants. I rather believe and trust those Organizations rather than trust any Chinese rebranding company, that does not even able to give product liability outside China.

I don´t know, if you had the chance to see a battery go out of control in real? I was not far away from a Li-Polymer battery that started to "whistle". It is not a good feeling to know, that something can happen and you don´t really know what....

 

[BillW50]

Not a good idea though. The solvents in these cells are not a good thing to touch or inhale the fumes of. Is the oxide of cobalt okay to handle? The MSDS says it’s not a great idea.

Yeah I wouldn't advice it either. But mimöschen made it sound like you will quickly be unable to speak after touching it.

 

[BillW50]

All of Samsung’s round cells pass more stringent testing than Aspire’s cells, including that physical abuse you described. The pouch LiPo’s that Samsung had problems with are totally different cells and Samsung makes millions of them.

Do you know the failure rate for Aspire’s cells? None of us do. It’s a very, very bad sign though that they must let them sit for weeks before selling them just to weed out the failing cells.

Actually freshly manufactured cells are very dangerous. That is why there are tough restrictions nowadays on shipping them. Thus not releasing them for sale for a few months sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

Jay Whitacre, a professor of materials science and engineering at Carnegie Mellon University, told Wired in 2015: "There is no way to tell when buying, since the catastrophic failure likely will not manifest until the battery is fully charged and discharged several times."​

Why lithium-ion batteries catch fire | TechRadar​

How many Aspire cells failed? They mentioned the percentage in Busardo's video. Or do you mean out in the wild?

Samsung's Galaxy Note 7 battery problem was that the pouch was too tight. Same thing can happen with our cylinder shaped cells if the metal jacket is too tight.

 

[diagrammatiks]

Let’s not get sidetracked by bill being bill and Dripster being dripster.

Mooch do these have lipo power curves or traditonal power curves.

 

[BillW50]

Let’s not get sidetracked by bill being bill

Sure one could argue against the manufactures, professors, CDC, etc.

 

[Mooch]

Actually freshly manufactured cells are very dangerous. That is why there are tough restrictions nowadays on shipping them. Thus not releasing them for sale for a few months sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

Jay Whitacre, a professor of materials science and engineering at Carnegie Mellon University, told Wired in 2015: "There is no way to tell when buying, since the catastrophic failure likely will not manifest until the battery is fully charged and discharged several times."​

Why lithium-ion batteries catch fire | TechRadar​

How many Aspire cells failed? They mentioned the percentage in Busardo's video. Or do you mean out in the wild?

Samsung's Galaxy Note 7 battery problem was that the pouch was too tight. Same thing can happen with our cylinder shaped cells if the metal jacket is too tight.

Freshly manufactured cells from a good manufacturer are not any more dangerous or regulated in any way. You can ship them at any time after manufacture (which includes the formation and testing process after assembly, which can take a while). The cells must be discharged down to 30% though.

Good quality control prevents the contamination of the layers which prevents internal short circuits. There’s no need for the big manufacturers to keep a cell for months, cycling it to try to see if it fails. That’s a catastrophically bad way to run a business versus having a robust quality control process in place with controlled manufacturing environments and quality materials. The cost of keeping millions of cells in testing machines for months would be insane. It also “steals” away some of the limited number of cycles the cells have before needing to be replaced. Making quality cells right from the start is much, much less expensive.

The metal can of our cylindrical cells have tightly controlled tolerances due to the drawing process involved. You’re just not going to get cans that are suddenly too tight.

The Samsung cell problems were due to two different size cells being manufactured, one too large, and pack assembly errors. The problem was not due to a too-tight pouch as every LiPo has its pouch very tightly wrapped around it from the vacuum sealing process while it’s being pressed flat.

 

[mimöschen]

1. Basic safety tests?
which? and where can I see the documentation? UN-Test is just a safety test for transportation.

2. Samsung mobile phone disaster - yes I agree and Samsung a few billion value company took those products from the market and paid compensation to the people. Exactly like Toyota did, or Dell...but I never heard on any such compensation or recall from Chinese companies like SMOK, or Efest.

3. Those Organizations carry the liability for their test results. TUEV had to pay lots of money as a compensation for certifying faulty silicone implants. I rather believe and trust those Organizations rather than trust any Chinese rebranding company, that does not even able to give product liability outside China.

I don´t know, if you had the chance to see a battery go out of control in real? I was not far away from a Li-Polymer battery that started to "whistle". It is not a good feeling to know, that something can happen and you don´t really know what....

Don't get me wrong. I understand your point of view.
But I think it's wrong to just look for those "evil chinese manufacturers".
The same mistakes are made by western companies as well. On a regular basis.
When they get caught, they pay a puny fee and go on with their business as usual.
Your mentioning of TÜV is quite funny as well. It's an organization that's far from being objective, because their main financier is a an industrial conglomerate.
It's like making a criminal his own judge.
Brilliant

 

[mimöschen]

Sure one could argue against the manufactures, professors, CDC, etc.

Against the manufacturers? No way! They always have the good of mankind at heart. Oh no wait....

If you just listen to Professor Proton?
Sure.

If an agency that says, it's no problem to do largescale fracking, while at the same time the people in that area get gooey, stinking water from their faucets, is an organization to trust, well, who am I to argue?

 

[Robin Becker]

Don't get me wrong. I understand your point of view.
But I think it's wrong to just look for those "evil chinese manufacturers".
The same mistakes are made by western companies as well. On a regular basis.
When they get caught, they pay a puny fee and go on with their business as usual.
Your mentioning of TÜV is quite funny as well. It's an organization that's far from being objective, because their main financier is a an industrial conglomerate.
It's like making a criminal his own judge.
Brilliant

at the company I work for, I am a technical purchaser and one of the things we do is sourcing for other companies.
We have many very good suppliers from the PRC (China) and indeed you can get in the menwhile high-quality and very innovative components and products from China, but Where there is light, there is also shadow.
When a customer asks us to source for him components, or products we have a certain process of vaildation we follow. It starts with certifications, comparing those certifications with the companies who issued them, testing the components / products, further we search for references on the market (a good Chinese manufacturer would give you such a list proudly) and finally making an audit at this suppliers offices and manufacturing plant.
As far as I see There is not a single Chinese battery manufacturer (even the good ones), that can compete the quality and performance of the Big-4 on battery sizes, that those BIG-4 are into like 18650, 20700 and 21700.

So when I see a battery 21700 coming from China with such a performance I want to know more...and more means for me mainly safety issues along with documentation and certification.

 

[mimöschen]

I never denied that the Big4 produce better or more consistant cells. But even they put out some crap from time to time.
So no matter how many tests are done, you can never be 100% sure that you get what you paid for.