Best attempt at a tobacco flavor so far --Full Credit to Nuck

[renderwerks]

If lower % alcohols dissolve enough to be useable, why bother risking an expolsion of alcohol vapor by distilling it?

True, but if high test grain alcohol is unavailable or difficult to obtain, you can refine vodka with hot water as ethyl alcohol boils at 173F, well below the boiling point of water.

It would take quite a bit of escaped alcohol vapor in a room to create a stoichiometric mixture.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I just what to give Nuck the a full note of appreciation in developing this formula. This is one for the ages.

Thanks again Nuck!!!


Sun

 

[Kate51]

I just what to give Nuck the a full note of appreciation in developing this formula. This is one for the ages.

Thanks again Nuck!!!


Sun

We're very Happy for the new Title on the Thread. You are so right, credit given where credit is due. Nuck is my Hero!

 

[Kate51]

Ok...here's an easy method to always get the amount of Maltol you want.
The math is easy to convert, if you have trouble, PM me. Sometimes my descriptions stink. lol

Start with 3ml of 151 vodka (75% ethyl alcohol). Use a bottle that will hold a total of 5-10ml. Add the Maltol till no more will dissolve. No need to measure it. It will be almost 4gm of Maltol. Powder it before you start so it disolves easier. Then shake it, tip it over watching tv. Let it sit over night and shake it some more in the morning....not long. Make sure there are still crystals/powder in the bottom and they aren't disolving anymore.
Now you have about 4ml of liquid to pour off. Label the bottle and that is your constant standard base to add to mixes.
Using a dropper that is standard (20 drops per ml) each drop contains 65mg of Maltol! It's not hard to do and you always get the same result. You can cut part of it 50/50 with 151 and it will be 32.5gm per drop. Now you can fine tune your mixes the same everytime.

I wanted to bring back the above post, because it works like a charm!! When your liquid gets drawn off in your bottle, add some more Grain Alcohol, re-heat to dissolve, more is dissolved from the left-over cyrstals, when there are no more crystals you know it's time to shop!! Love that! I just ordered 80ml more EM, that should hold me awhile. Well, I've already used 30 ml, so what the heck! Saves on shipping, and I intend to make my tobacco flavor forever. And, while in shopping mood, got some Nicitiana Rustica as well! MMMMM

 

[Vaporer]

Thanks Kate.

It works with any liquid you are using that it dissolves in. As long as crystals are remaining in the bottom its always a supersaturated solution. So the concentration is always the same.
Seems an easy way for consistancy in a DIY world. At least with Ethyl Maltol.

I like the new thread title. I'm abt ready to make a new base and this time its with the Brazilian Absolute. It may be diff or not. Diff regions can impart diff tones to the flavor due to soil chemistry. Guess we'll see!

 

[Kate51]

I'd be interested to see how it is...let us know!..I just ordered another big rustica from Samara Botane , where did this one come from? I never did order that solanaece (species) or the one made from flowers from Perfumer's, I'm curious about that one too. Maybe next order.
Your dissolution method works just great for Ethyl Maltol, so wanted to draw some attention to it again.

 

[Vaporer]

It came from Samara too with my last big rustica.
Its the concrete. Mixed with 151 it should seperate removing the waxes and leaving the absolute in the 151.
1st run extractions contain the waxes. Especially the steam method. Further reading says to remove the waxes with ethyl alcohol results in the absolute after the ehtyl is evaporated off. I can leave it in, since it will be diluted with it anyway.
Thought I'd give it a try. Waxes arent water soluble so 151 should work fine.

 

[Kate51]

OK, thanks..I think I mentioned about filtering my tobacco 'mix' and the caramel/hazelnut flavoring, (there are some visible specs of solids in the teabag paper) wonder if the waxes will be totally dissolved, or would they be 'semi-solids'. Hmm. I don't want to chance blocking the mesh in the atty if I can help it. You must do a report! Some of those things on Samara site do not have a spec sheet, or else I'm looking in the wrong place. On the Home page it says to click on the product number but nothing happens. But I did see the expanation of the concretes. Hope it's like Virginia flue cured, or some nice burley!! Who knows.
I had to smile, today on Fox there was a report of a guy I think in Colorado, was growing his own tobacco for smoking...RYO style...aging it, flue curing it and the whole bit. No name, no web address, darn, but couldn't help thinking, no, I'm not gonna go there. Was an enormous lot of work. But it showed the flowers on the tobacco plants, and the word "solanaece" (species) jumped into my head! We're getting smarter and smarter! I don't think that's the right spelling, close though.

 

[Vaporer]

Kate according to the article the ethyl alcohol doesn't dissolve the wax constituients of the concrete. They will filter out leaving the absolute and alcohol.
The waxes aren't soluble in alcohol and are present from the heat of the steam method used.
I will do a post on its results.

I remember your filtering all to well....lol
Getting someting in that atty mesh would be way easier than getting it back out, if ever.
I don't want vaped wax either!
Should be interesting. Not much cost to find out and I'll do the whole 7.5ml at one time. I'd like to see a distinct seperation of fluids & solids(even semi) form. At least something that is filterable.
Its not waxy looking like you'd expect. Since it's called concrete that should be the only difference from all I can read. Some creams, lotions and other stuff it's used for prefer the waxy stuff left in.

The accords look like witches brew..........they may be the dead on thing, but my chemistry isn't that good. Finding the listed ingredients and toxicity isn't hard. But in a vapor form inhaled? Many will combine at low temps to form other compounds.

If in doubt, leave it out!

 

[cordless]

Maltol Question.

It dosent seem to matter how much Maltol I add.. I started with the crystals and made the Maltol juice by adding Matol Crystals to 150 proof Everclear.. Kept adding Matol crystals and heating in microwave to help dissolve it until the crystal wouldn't dissolve anymore so im sure i got that part right.. BUT when i add the pure Maltol to the recipe it dosent change the flavor any.. Is that right ? Shouldn't the Maltol change the flavor ?? BTW.. i never added any flavorings .. im trying to make the formula first before adding any artificial flavors.. BTW what is the Maltol use for ??

Also.. the Maltol crystals seem to dissolve better in VG , cant i just add the Crystals to VG instead of using the Everclear 150%

thanks

 

[Vaporer]

If you heated the VG more crystals may reform as it cools. Thats not a problem. You still have a supersaturated solution. As long as crystals remain, so will its strength be the same. I don't use VG that way so I don't know how much will dissolve. It doesnt take much with Maltol in a recipe.
Maltol has a slight sweetness. Its major purpose is to remove the harshness of the absolute. Tone it down so to say. Make a batch a little strong with no Maltol and vape it.
It can be rough to vape, to much absolute and its like an ashtray.
The Maltol won't remove the ashtray, but will soften the flavor some. If you do ashtray a batch just dilute it a little till its gone. Record how much VG (i presume you used ), or e liquid, an add the appropriate amounts of the others and you won't lose the batch.

 

[Kate51]

I did a little experimenting today with some of my tobacco "mix", adding about a quarter of the volume in Ethyl Maltol: it was definitely a 'better' (not as sharp) taste in the tobacco part of my recipe. The next batch I make, am going to test a small amount of Rustica by itself(cut with Everclear), do another with Blond by itself (cut with EverClear), and add Ethyl Maltol (dissolved in EverClear) a quarter of the volume of each, and do an experiment with tobacco absolute taste by itself in VG. Just for the sake of curiosity. I can still just mix them together as I have been as per the recipe. As we talked about before, the EM may serve better by being mixed directly with the tobacco dilutes, since all are diluted in EverClear anyway.
JUST A THOUGHT:I have been curious about the "blond (SCIENTIFIC NAME: Nicotiana tabacum" " FAMILY NAME: Solanaceae") absolute from Gritman. The wording of the spec sheet vaguely refers to the process of extraction gives it's name as "blond" and perhaps that also includes 0 nicotine as part of the "blond" process. ??
I never have found any refrence to "Virginia" tobacco until the other day came across an article, referring to a species of tobacco grown in one region of Virginia (although it can be grown in any region with similar bad soil) since the days of the first settlers there, they called it species Bright Leaf tobacco. Hence the "Virginia" name being fixed to it. So the Virginia we always sought (Bright Leaf) after was usually sun cured, but also was heat cured in a smokehouse. The Blond is much milder (lower nic), I found, was highly peferred for pipe tobacco in the day, I found the Rustica is listed as the most potent tobacco (nicotine content). I don't believe the absolutes retain nicotine, but some of the "Bulgarian" ones do show high nic 3.7% by testing. I don't happen to have the spec sheets for the Bulgarian, but will keep looking.
I got my Rustica this morning, had to open it!! Gosh that's pure heaven to smell.

 

[KonaNeil]

I have very lightly followed this thread. I know the regulars here are quite dedicated to recreating or capturing a true tobacco flavor.

I'm not conversant with the details of what you folks are doing but could this be anything like what you are making?

TastyVapor.Webs.Com - DISCOUNT Liquids and Mixers - E-LIQUID
*Our Tobacco is not what you'd expect when ordering a tobacco flavor e-liquid. Ours is all-natural and made from a maceration of PG and 3 year aged and perfectly blended Virginia/Burley/Oriental. It is strained, clarified and choice ingredients carefully added to provide a clean, natural and quite aromatic vaping experience. Soon, we will carry your regular tobacco flavor in addition to our own, but for now, we don't mind bragging a little. Give it a try!

They sell it as a 30 or 45mg juice and at a pretty low price as a double strength 0 nik. flavor liquid.

 

[Kate51]

Yes, it does look that way, those flavors are also made by a Chinese company, Dekang...so not sure of their sources.
My reason for DIY was to re-create a specific comm. juice that's no longer made, and I loved it. That is now (thanks to these guys here) no longer a problem, I got a taste 'close enough' of the old Johnson Creek Original in VG.
Would be very surprised if those were tobacco's which they purchased in 'absolute' or tobacco extracted forms. So without them releasing more info can't really say for sure. They do not specify origin.
If they are formulating their own "from scratch", as does Johnson Creek in Wi., it would be a rarity in the commercial world State Side. Rocky Mountain Vapor, Vermont Vapor, also do their own mixing, and that's only two mentioned, many do every batch to order, but I have the idea these are bottled flavors. A person would go nuts trying to "make" 36 different formulas with variable nic in both VG and PG to please even 30 people a week, you would not have time to sleep, and you sure wouldn't "make" any money!
There are some of us who are striving for "real" tobacco e-liquid in the realm of DIY, it's a very tricky, costly, taste-based fun thing...with some great successes!!!
I'm just not about to start growing my own tobacco at this stage, I may get pretty desparate for a smoke in the meantime! I'm content to buy the 'absolute' form for now.

 

[Vaporer]

I know of no one that has just the tobacco flavoring except Geoff (TastyVapor).
He's making his own. We discussed the details in depth during his development and I'm anxious to try it. Please, don't ask what or how its done and what's in it. I don't know what he decided on for sure. Many factors to consider. I'm surprized he went as far as he did with the description, but he's proud of it and rightly so. Not an easy task.

All the others that do custom batches are non-tobacco flavors or they are mixing pre made liquids from China. DeKang and BioTech are the 2 biggies and good luck trying to get it from them. FlavorArt the Angel mentioned has some listed, $28 to ship is kinda high, but it appears to be in Italy. Their prices arent bad for the ml's.

Kate, you are right. The Rustica is the highest in nic, but Virginia loses its nic in the sun drying process that produces the "blond" effect. Basically "sun bleached", then cured.
So far, I cant tell much diff in the N. Tobacum's. Seems the strain tastes the same regardless of country of origin...maybe a slight diff. I still have that Brazilian to try.
Rustica stands far in flavor from N Tobacum. I did find a Morocan that the French guy wants to sell me a min of a kilo lol only $4800. I asked for a list of their distributors. Nope. They don't want to sell it???? I probably made the Interpol list. roflol

Well.....this site did run the Apprentice out of stock on absolute! Way to go DIY'ers! lol Makes you wonder what they think when all of a sudden everyone wants something that hasn't sold much if any in a year.

Guess I'll go start that separation on the Brazil stuff.....I do hope its yummy ...at least diff in a good way. Got my 510 & 901 mods done and if I do the 801 No worries on batteries anymore.

More later on the Brazilian..If it works out...I can post " Nuck goes Brazilian "!

 

[Kate51]

Vaporer: I have revised the definition of 'blond' in my post #152. But also note the 'family' name ~ Solanaceae This is what I've had all along....pfffft! So I can stop looking now. This is from the Gritman company, when I first bought the blond they didn't have the spec sheet available, so have been looking for the wrong thing.
We need to find some Bright Leaf absolute. I know they sell the seed! Hmmmm..maybe I'll be doing Bright Leaf absolute in my Romco Deluxe 5-Tray Food Dehydrator #1888! Good luck with that I'm thinking...that would be the true "Virginia". My husband really would be calling the guys in the white coats, he's been looking for a good excuse for that for years now!! But can you imagine the wonderful scents coming out the kitchen window, wafting around the HAZMAT signs hanging there.....
Something to read for fun, from a historical view. (My thing, maybe not yours!)

http://www.unctv.org/ncdependence/history.html

Way to go, now probably an international incident going on because you're a cheapskate!!

 

[Vaporer]

That leads to the rest of my previous post.
Soil can cause the plant to have different flavors as can the "strain". After months of researching its soaking in , I think, on me where we are missing what we so dearly want.
The flavors we search for come from the final fermentation and curing process of tobacco. Colors can range from red, brown, blond and even black depending on the method of curing. All the micro processes that create the wonderful flavors and aromas we love.
So, when is absolute made? Well.....it is basically made from all the unused portion of the plant before curing occurs. Our absolutes are usually green. The dregs of the plant are used for a product and it works for their purpose, not ours when asking for distinct flavors. It does provide the base tobacco flavor , just not the wonderful cured overtones we search for. This explains why N. Tobacum and Rustica are so different , but Tobacums all seem to be abt the same. This isn't looking good for my hopes on the Brazilian (N.Tobacum).
It also explains why when ingredients were or are listed on our eliquid that you wil see Essential Oil of Burley, Virginia..............
They are adding an extraction AFTER the curing/fermentation process has occured and the new flavors are present.

So......where does this leave us? Depends on the user outcome expectations and satifaction I guess. Pretty subjective point , but that's where it ends.
If we want a heavy tobacco flavor, Absolutes for a base and Essential Oils of the cured product in proportion we admire and appreciate. It will fall in the proportions used to design the user tastes.
We have the Absolutes for a good base. I've searched high and low for the essential oils. Nada.....that I remember. I have many bookmarks in a research folder to go back through just in case I missed it and the lightbulb didnt go on. Also, new search parameters and methods for making these oils and sources for cured leaf. Many will argue oils arent good for the attys. True, but something to deal with from what I see if you want the flavors. It's what the manufacturers are using and going to be hard to duplicate any other way. We still arent burning the tobacco so all the nasties arent going to be produced and if organic leaf or home grown is used we are still 1000's less on chemicals inhaled. So far , the heat from vaping has not proven things carcinogenic.
Nitros are part of tobacco itself so if absolutes are accepted....still the test done show levels below approved FDA levels in their present approved products.

Thats my opinion as humble as I can present the facts as I find them.
Fire at will....I have my vest on. lol

 

[Vaporer]

You don't need to stop. Solanaceae is the correct family, but its way up the tree.
It includes Potatoes, peppers, tomatoes, tobacco and many more.
Solanaceae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That was the only description on the French source and why I didn't persue it more.

"A famous alkaloid from the Solanaceae family is nicotine. Like the tropanes, its pharmacology acts on cholinergic neurons, but with the opposite effect (it is an agonist as opposed to an antagonist). It has a higher specificity for nicotinic acetylcholine receptors than other ACh proteins. Its effects are well known. Nicotine occurs naturally in the Nicotiana or Tobacco genus."

Ok....Virginia is actually the same plant as N. tabacum (Bulgarian).
We just got it before it was done cooking, in absolute form .

Still, it retains the base flavor, just not the top notes.

I did find a place in Hong Kong that manufacturers ....(drum roll here).......
Virginia Essential Oil of Tobacco! Used for flavoring actual tobacco!
Now I have to sign up to see what the min quantity is.......sigh.....8-o

 

[Kate51]

Good, if you need some help with that I think I could sell the house.
Besides, I watched some "grow your own tobacco" videos on Utube last night, I really can't see myself doing all that for a few ounces a year of Light Leaf absolute. I can just see myself out there keeping the grasshoppers off my plants...one poor lady had her entire 3 season room full of plants from early March till frost time, and she had a coffee can full of tobacco to show for it. Just didn't seem worth it. Her electric bill must have been enormous!

 

[Vaporer]

I only live 20mi from Kentucky. Have to go a bit south into it to find the nice tobacco farms. There are some very nice horse farms and tobacco plantations near Paris/Lexington Ky. about a 2 hr drive 1 way.

Actually, I think there has been a tremendous amount of progress in this thread and much appreciated too.

We have Nucks actual tobacco based recipe. I'm sure many have created their own variations like your JC Clone and I add menthol to Nucks being an ex-analog menthol smoker..........Many more exist that just don't post I'm sure.

I can think of at least 5 possible avenues to persue right now still.
Any good outcome of any of them would be more variations.

Lets hold on the house thing till we've exhausted all other possiblities.
Houses with Hazmat signs everywhere aren't doing well in todays market